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We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes!

weberc2 7y ago
On the other hand, at least the American supplier was fined and someone went to prison. Fraudulent Chinese suppliers routinely escape justice altogether because they largely operate outside of US jurisdiction.
- ajross 7y ago
  That's the essence of the issue exactly. There is fraud everywhere, but in most of the world fraud isn't a successful business model. In the PRC, it kind of is.
  - neetdeth 7y ago
    Although fraud is no doubt rampant in Chinese industry, the penalties are... rather more severe. You had better make sure your scheme doesn't piss off the wrong people. The PRC's military and aerospace supply chains are probably in pretty good shape.
    - weberc2 7y ago
      Agreed, but the scenario we’re discussing is a US company sourcing parts from a Chinese company. The PRC’s stiff penalties don’t protect the consumer in this scenario.
CharlesColeman 7y ago
> We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes! It's entirely possible that American manufacturers are forced to compromise quality like that due to the competitive pressure of low-cost Chinese fakes.
- toss1 7y ago
  Mo question, Chinese fakes and theft are an enormous problem, and I'll be among the first to speak against it. However, no one was forced to compromise quality. One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. I've stepped away from deals for the same reason -- I'm not going to compromise quality and performance to compete with lesser Chinese junk at their prices. Moreover, it is a losing game, as there are a billion of them, and producing cheap low-quality stuff is what they are best at (and in some cases they are rising above that). They fell to the temptation to compete with the inferior grade materials by providing inferior grade materials with false test results, but they were not forced to do so.
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. Do that too much, and you may just go out of business yourself (or have to radically reduce operations).
    - toss1 7y ago
      Of course you might. Or, you might have to work harder and smarter to find better options. If you are not sufficiently diligent and intelligent, it may seem that when things get tough because one sector is in a race to the bottom, that because <we could go out of business if we don't>, it's ok to just cut corners, falsify tests, etc. Once you start doing that, you have decided that you'd rather be a rich fraud than a poor honest person. You may think that is OK. I do not.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    Definitely. And when one knows it won't work? Say that, say why, decline and cite cost to make it a success exceeds client expectations and or ability to pay. When they do it on the cheap, fail hard, know that cost exceeds just doing the right work with the right materials every time. When they come back, quote them with confidence.

On the other hand, at least the American supplier was fined and someone went to prison. Fraudulent Chinese suppliers routinely escape justice altogether because they largely operate outside of US jurisdiction.

ajross 7y ago
That's the essence of the issue exactly. There is fraud everywhere, but in most of the world fraud isn't a successful business model. In the PRC, it kind of is.
- neetdeth 7y ago
  Although fraud is no doubt rampant in Chinese industry, the penalties are... rather more severe. You had better make sure your scheme doesn't piss off the wrong people. The PRC's military and aerospace supply chains are probably in pretty good shape.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    Agreed, but the scenario we’re discussing is a US company sourcing parts from a Chinese company. The PRC’s stiff penalties don’t protect the consumer in this scenario.

CharlesColeman 7y ago

> We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes! It's entirely possible that American manufacturers are forced to compromise quality like that due to the competitive pressure of low-cost Chinese fakes.

toss1 7y ago
Mo question, Chinese fakes and theft are an enormous problem, and I'll be among the first to speak against it. However, no one was forced to compromise quality. One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. I've stepped away from deals for the same reason -- I'm not going to compromise quality and performance to compete with lesser Chinese junk at their prices. Moreover, it is a losing game, as there are a billion of them, and producing cheap low-quality stuff is what they are best at (and in some cases they are rising above that). They fell to the temptation to compete with the inferior grade materials by providing inferior grade materials with false test results, but they were not forced to do so.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. Do that too much, and you may just go out of business yourself (or have to radically reduce operations).
  - toss1 7y ago
    Of course you might. Or, you might have to work harder and smarter to find better options. If you are not sufficiently diligent and intelligent, it may seem that when things get tough because one sector is in a race to the bottom, that because <we could go out of business if we don't>, it's ok to just cut corners, falsify tests, etc. Once you start doing that, you have decided that you'd rather be a rich fraud than a poor honest person. You may think that is OK. I do not.
- ddingus 7y ago
  Definitely. And when one knows it won't work? Say that, say why, decline and cite cost to make it a success exceeds client expectations and or ability to pay. When they do it on the cheap, fail hard, know that cost exceeds just doing the right work with the right materials every time. When they come back, quote them with confidence.