15 ms·

Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

117 points by onemoresoop 8y ago

sandworm101 8y ago
I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. Visit Rikers island and look at how long people are held there prior to trial (years). The focus on confessions isn't a Japanese thing. Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession. Repeated questioning isn't torture. In the USA it is true that police have to stop asking questions once you demand a lawyer, but that isn't true in Canada. The mounties can, and do, question suspects for hours. Brits who do not want to speak still have to sit through the ritual of "no comment' interviews which can last hours. Are we only talking about these Japanese cases because they involve rich people?
- gambiting 8y ago
  >>I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. Just because something is normalised doesn't mean it's ok, I think we can both agree on that?
  - draw_down 8y ago
    Maybe it's just me, but when a widespread injustice is only being discussed in the context of it happening to a rich and/or powerful person, that's a pretty strong hint we're not talking about the actual injustice.
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    Then why do posts that talk about our (the US's) problems such as Rikers always get flagged on HN whereas posts about other countries get through? Seems like empty rhetoric to me.
- draw_down 8y ago
  > Are we only talking about these Japanese cases because they involve rich people? That would be my understanding, yes.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Saying you don't see a problem is absolutely disgusting. The Rikers cases are miscarriages of justice and the two famous cases led to changes in the law to prevent some future horrors.
- socksindrawers 8y ago
  If anything, I'm happy that there's a country willing to prosecute people for white collar crimes. Just look at how America is all-too-willing to let mass murderers like the Sackler family get away with profiting off of addiction. Do these sound like words of someone trying to do anything other than profit off of death? “The prescription blizzard will be so deep, dense, and white.” Meanwhile you see blue collar Americans charged with federal riot and conspiracy charges for exercising their legally protected free speech rights at a protest that they had acquired a permit for (Rise Above Movement).
  - colejohnson66 8y ago
    Rioting, even with a permit to protest, is illegal
    - socksindrawers 8y ago
      They didn't riot, they were attacked and defended themselves. Look at any video from the event.
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      - fzeroracer 8y ago
        You're saying the people that participated in the Unite the Right rally, who conspired to commit violence and escalate an already violent event and who were members of what is essentially a terrorist group were just defending themselves? No, they weren't attacked. They were the aggressors. They have a history of being aggressors. They openly admit to being violent and aggressive.
        socksindrawers 8y ago
        Yes, that's what I'm saying. The people with the permit to demonstrate were attacked and defended themselves, and are being railroaded by the justice system. It's not illegal to be proud of defending your right to free speech with self defense. Meanwhile the people who show up with weapons and masks, and with no permit and incite the violence don't even get arrested. It even happened a few days ago at a Trump rally. A reporter got harassed and attacked, and nothing will happen to the perpetrators - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j693_xvdGTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j693_xvdGTI
- ConcernedCoder 8y ago
  My unpopular opinion: Questioning someone longer than they want to provide answers, when that same person is unable to leave the interview is a form of torture -- change my mind.
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  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    Under that reasoning I don't see how any form of detainment could not be considered torture as well, including pretty much all public education. One must accept that the real world is not made of lines that provide convenient barriers between concepts, in other words, there are degrees of torture, and some will be much more acceptable than others.
    - pas 8y ago
      The efficacy of learning for sitting in classes is very low. Especially for those who don't want to be there. So, yes, it's a quite pointless form of torture. (Kids who loathe school need therapy, not "just" school.)
  - rmah 8y ago
    Your request is, at its heart, a question about the definition of the word "torture". The pedestrian definition of "torture" as per the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: 1: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure 2: a) something that causes agony or pain; b) anguish of body or mind 3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument I guess definition 2b in the context of "mind" fits best with your proposition. Which then leads to the definition of "anguish". Alternatively, we can examine the legal definition, which will vary by jurisdiction, but for completeness, I will link to the UN definition at https://www.apt.ch/en/what-is-torture/ https://www.apt.ch/en/what-is-torture/. In brief: "Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession" Here, you'd have to ask if prolonged unwanted questioning causes "severe [mental] pain or suffering". And finally, perhaps you mean torture in the figurative sense. Either way, if simply questioning someone "longer than they want" is "torture" then pretty much all of us have, at some point tortured someone. At that point, the word "torture" becomes synonymous with "discomfort" or "to annoy" and would, IMO, lose all utility from a legal point of view. In the final analysis, what this boils down to is that the world does not exist to serve your desires. Unpleasant things can and will happen to you. Even being asked questions you don't want to answer in situations where you cannot leave. While an individual may never have experienced anything more unpleasant than that, and thus it feels horrible to them, the fact is that there are far far FAR more unpleasant experiences that millions of others have faced. Society does not owe the sheltered more than the less sheltered.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  > I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. You could say the following as well: I don't see the problem. Dictatorship is normal around the world. Since when is something normal just because it's widespread? There is no reason to keep someone in jail unless there is a strong suspicion they are a threat to others, or a risk of flight.
- dalore 8y ago
  You can't leave until you confess or payup isn't a problem? With no access to family OR legal representation throughout the process?
- SkyBelow 8y ago
  > Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession. There are also done under threat. "Plea guilty to X and take 6 months in prison, or we will charge you with Y which carries 10 years in prison. If you choose the second option we will give you an overworked public defender who loses 90% of the time." In effect, it is punishing people for insisting on their right to a jury trial.
  - SkyBelow 8y ago
    *There -> They're My self disappointment is immeasurable.
deugtniet 8y ago
I find it interesting how Japan and Germany both have a constitution that was essentially written by Americans after the second world war. But there is a big difference in civil liberties between these countries. E.G. If the police charge you in Japan, there is very little chance not being sentenced to something (or taken hostage). Compared to Germany where you would have a much fairer trial.
- mafribe 8y ago
  Aside, not relevant to the article discussed here. constitution that was essentially written by Americans I cannot speak about Japan, but that's historically false for Germany. If you look at the list of participants in the main events that drafted the West German constitution such as the Rittersturz-Konferenz [1] and the Verfassungskonvent auf Herrenchiemsee [2], then you'll see that all participants are German. Naturally, the allies had to agree, but they were split in a big way. The Soviet Union anyway, but the US and France really had very different ideas. France, in particular, wanted to snatch the Saar region. Naturally the drafters of the German constitution were inspired in particular by the US constitution, because it was rather successful. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rittersturz-Konferenz https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rittersturz-Konferenz [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungskonvent_auf_Herrenchiemsee https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungskonvent_auf_Herrenc...
  - deugtniet 8y ago
    My constitutional knowledge on the German constitution is a bit rusty, but I guess you hit the nail on the head when you say: 'Naturally, the allies had to agree'. The Allies were the ones that required these conferences and approved of the Germans that went there. I guess the English and the French had some say, but really the big dog of the allies was the US. So I stand by my statement.
    - mafribe 8y ago
      I'd be interested to learn which part of the german constitution was "essentially written by the americans". Can you give an example? Just one? Please don't forget that (1) the allies had really diametrically opposed goals -- France had to be coerced by the UK and the US to agree to the draft constiution. Moreover, (2) the allies tried hard to avoid the impression that they were forcing anything on the german drafters. Only the date for the drafting conference was an allied constraint: 1. September 1948. The allies wanted to West-German population to accept the constitution, remember the cold was was hotting up at the time, and Soviet union was good at exploiting discontent. approved of the Germans that went there Is that even true? Was there an official approval process? Have you got a reference for this claim?
ttul 8y ago
A hundred years ago, Japan was a feudal society. Apparently, some of the old traditions live on.
- u10 8y ago
  Japan wasn't a feudal society 100 years ago, in fact, they had beaten a western power 10 years prior. Not to mention the 'West' just finished 4 years of blowing each other up, not very "Civilized" imo.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    And also not to mention that while their internal justice may have been questionable (as it always is, everywhere), the Edo period had zero war for 250 years. Imagine the US never having been in a war since before the Declaration of Independence. Would that GP included that in their criticism.
- GuiA 8y ago
  The feudal era in Japan is considered to have ended with the shogunate, ie the Meiji restoration (1868).
  - mc32 8y ago
    To be fair to the OP I don’t think they were invoking the end of the shogunate but rather that because it had ended within memory of the defeat to the allies, these vestiges were relevant and were (and continue) to be in the conscience of Japanese society.
- zumu 8y ago
  Their constitution was drafted mostly by the Americans. I don't think that's a fair conclusion to draw here.
sara123226 8y ago
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corey_moncure 8y ago
Who is the writer and what is his angle here? It looks like this is his only contribution to this outlet. A google search on his name turns up nothing.
- cerealbad 8y ago
  Outside Board Director, Former Executive Officer at US/Japan Multinationals, Retired Int'l Business Attorney. you can find him on linkedin. https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/eneiheisel https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/eneiheisel
- deleted 8y ago
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vectorEQ 8y ago
i find it interesting that if a normal person gets detained like this, no one fucking cares. ;)
anonu 8y ago
Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Ghosn is innocent. He may very well have created special corporate structures to siphon off cash - and if he did, he certainly didn't do it alone. I think he regretted not taking the helm of GM where he saw US top execs easily earning $20, $30mm a year with no complaints from the public...
- on_and_off 8y ago
  >Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people This should have absolutely no bearing on how the justice system handles him.
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  - dopamean 8y ago
    Seriously! I know it happens but I feel like it's rare to see someone seem to explicitly argue that someone's business success should be a mitigating factor when considering their crimes.
    - mc32 8y ago
      While not to this degree “mitigating circumstances” is a concept in law, so while I disagree with OP, it is a thing of sorts in some traditions of law.
      - on_and_off 8y ago
        That's not what mitigating circumstances are for AFAIK. Here are the examples given in a law dictionary : "a young man shoots his father after years of being beaten, belittled, sworn at and treated without love. "Heat of passion" or "diminished capacity" are forms of such mitigating circumstances" mitigating circumstances are conditions that explain and partially excuse a behavior. If anything, being a very wealthy exec that does not need money but still stealing would be an aggravating circumstance. However, if you look at prison terms, whether this person is a danger to society or not is a big factor. We could also talk a lot about imprisonment and whether it should be used as a punition or only as a way to protect society against some very limited cases of dangerous individuals.
Thaxll 8y ago
Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country, on the other it has old laws / weird mentality about some modern concepts for society, ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_...
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  > Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?
  - teachrdan 8y ago
    I believe they are referring to Japan's low rate of violent crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Statistics
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
      Which is exactly the error I have been pointing out? Or are you saying that people being forced into prison for no fault of their own is being counted as violent crime in that statistic?
  - hamilyon2 8y ago
    Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil. This is how it is that safe.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil. This is how it is that safe. Or, the criminals are organized and have connections and unspoken agreements with the authorities, existing in a kind of truce. (EDIT: In essence, the seven to seventy times thinking over has been enshrined and institutionalized.)
AcerbicZero 8y ago
I'm not going to tell the Japanese how to run their society, primarily because I'm not Japanese, they're a sovereign nation, and there is no evidence that the system I'm currently subjected to is any better or worse. If the Japanese people want to change this, and want external support to change this, that is an entirely different discussion from what was in this article.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  there is no evidence that the system I'm currently subjected to is any better or worse There's plenty of evidence in the form of the many people who want to come here, and in the form of the many people who have come here and established successful happy lives. My family history is evidence. Inherent, universal human rights are the right side of history. The history of the world shows this.
- stale2002 8y ago
  I mean, places like Saudi Arabia and Iran give people the death penalty for being gay. Being a "sovereign" nation is not a justification for anything. I am happy to denounce bad thing that other countries do, because of my "sovereign" right to do so.
noego 8y ago
> During detention, both were subject to extensive questioning by prosecutors without an attorney present. Videotapes of Ghosn’s questioning — a new feature added in the Criminal Procedure Reform law in 2016 in direct response to documented abuses — were made available to his attorneys who were present at the detention center, but lawyers were not permitted in the room where questioning took place. > The system must change. > First, every suspect should have the right to consult a lawyer as soon as the case is in the hands of prosecutors, and questioning should be prohibited in the absence of an attorney. The article makes no attempt whatsoever to explain why the above change "must" be made. I'm on the fence on this matter, but the article just sounds like a sanctimonious scolding of Japan for not doing what other Western countries are doing. "We're all doing it, so you better do it too" isn't a particularly compelling argument. In fact, given how much more effective their criminal Justice system is compared to America's, I would err on the side of keeping up their good work.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  "We're all doing it, so you better do it too" isn't a particularly compelling argument. That's not the argument. The real argument is from principle. The principle of inherent human rights.
  - noego 8y ago
    Having a lawyer present while being questioned as an "inherent human right"? Why is that? Why not your parents, spouse, children and best friend as well? I don't recall seeing this anywhere in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. By what reasoning have you decided that having a lawyer present is an "inherent human right"?
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      It's a part of due process. One underlying principle or right would be along the lines of Presumption of innocence. There are all sorts of non-obvious shenanigans which the authorities can pull, otherwise, which given the authorities the unchecked power to pressure or harass individuals. Obviously, that is against individual human rights.
_cs2017_ 8y ago
Edit: I just realized that the nearly 100% conviction rate is only for those who go to trial. A third of the people who are detained are released without trial. So ignore this post: my main assumption (that arrest is similar to conviction) was incorrect. --- Maybe one way to think of the Japanese justice system is that the trial happens before the defendant is arrested. After all, the conviction rate is nearly 100%, so in some sense the actual trial is just a formality. From that perspective, it's not surprising that defendants may be detained without bail for weeks: the system treats them as if they are already convicted. It seems to me that with such a system, it's far too easy to convict an innocent person: after all, the decision is made by prosecutors, who are usually incentivized to err on the side of conviction (both by career pressures and by personal predisposition). Do we know whether Japan has a really high false conviction rate? It's probably very hard to answer, since it's unclear how anyone could collect such statistics. If it turns out that false convictions are rare in Japan, it may imply the prosecutors are actually trying to discover the truth rather than convict. Which would be a very interesting deviation from any other justice system I know of.
- b_tterc_p 8y ago
  It’s mostly because their system is underfunded so they don’t bother going to court unless a win is guaranteed.
  - _cs2017_ 8y ago
    Interesting. Wouldn't that imply that a lot of crimes are not investigated, and/or suspected criminals are let go?
    - b_tterc_p 8y ago
      Yep
- Causality1 8y ago
  Like much of Japanese society, appearances and propriety are very important. Sometimes that means releasing criminals who might not be found guilty. Sometimes it means homicides get declared suicides.
tus87 8y ago
I find Western criticism of Japan's legal system hilarious. > Japanese prosecutors subject suspects to up to eight hours of daily questioning while they are detained in a bid to obtain a confession, shutting off access to their family and barring them from obtaining legal assistance during the questioning. And according to the popular narrative, it’s all done capriciously, with the nefarious machinations of the state lurking behind. This is true in almost every western country except the US. England, Canada, Australia etc you have no right to a lawyer during questioning. Police will destroy and cover up evidence in attempt to frame people on a regular basis, and basically join the prosecution from day 1 instead of investigating crime. They seek certain sorts of convictions to please their politics masters. They much rather a rape conviction than a false accusation conviction for example. They will prosecute people against the weight of evidence, where in fact the only evidence is exculpatory. Consider the case of Mark Pearson. Falsely accused of a rape after bumping into a woman in a subway station. Video evidence proved it wasn't possible, so police slowed down the footage to make it appear it did happen. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cps-slowed-down-cctv-footage-of-commuter-accused-of-sexual-assault-to-look-like-he-had-more-time-to-a6861181.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cps-slowed-down-... Now if this same thing happened in Japan, if they saw the video footage that basically proved it was a false accusation, do you think they would have acted as capriciously as UK police, or maybe charged the woman instead? The narcissism of the Western political/legal class knows no bounds.
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mindgam3 8y ago
The real mindfuck here isn't just that Japanese law allows the authorities to question you during detention (before being charged with anything), all day every day, with no attorney present. Nor is it that they can restrict access to the outside world, only allowing you to speak to family for max 20m a day, with a translator + officer present at all times. No, the real kicker is that the clock for the 20-30 day detention period starts fresh every time, for each charge they want to investigate. This means that they can essentially keep people in detention for as long as they want by having a list of charges and "investigating" them one at a time. If you're used to things like due process, "give me my phone call", etc, the Japanese justice system is quite difficult to wrap your head around. I have no idea if Ghosn is guilty of what he is accused of. But there are massive pressures to extract confessions from people in his position. And forced confessions reduce the legitimacy of the entire justice system.

117 points by onemoresoop 8y ago

I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. Visit Rikers island and look at how long people are held there prior to trial (years). The focus on confessions isn't a Japanese thing. Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession. Repeated questioning isn't torture. In the USA it is true that police have to stop asking questions once you demand a lawyer, but that isn't true in Canada. The mounties can, and do, question suspects for hours. Brits who do not want to speak still have to sit through the ritual of "no comment' interviews which can last hours. Are we only talking about these Japanese cases because they involve rich people?

gambiting 8y ago
>>I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. Just because something is normalised doesn't mean it's ok, I think we can both agree on that?
- draw_down 8y ago
  Maybe it's just me, but when a widespread injustice is only being discussed in the context of it happening to a rich and/or powerful person, that's a pretty strong hint we're not talking about the actual injustice.
- thereare5lights 8y ago
  Then why do posts that talk about our (the US's) problems such as Rikers always get flagged on HN whereas posts about other countries get through? Seems like empty rhetoric to me.
draw_down 8y ago
> Are we only talking about these Japanese cases because they involve rich people? That would be my understanding, yes.
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Saying you don't see a problem is absolutely disgusting. The Rikers cases are miscarriages of justice and the two famous cases led to changes in the law to prevent some future horrors.
socksindrawers 8y ago
If anything, I'm happy that there's a country willing to prosecute people for white collar crimes. Just look at how America is all-too-willing to let mass murderers like the Sackler family get away with profiting off of addiction. Do these sound like words of someone trying to do anything other than profit off of death? “The prescription blizzard will be so deep, dense, and white.” Meanwhile you see blue collar Americans charged with federal riot and conspiracy charges for exercising their legally protected free speech rights at a protest that they had acquired a permit for (Rise Above Movement).
- colejohnson66 8y ago
  Rioting, even with a permit to protest, is illegal
  - socksindrawers 8y ago
    They didn't riot, they were attacked and defended themselves. Look at any video from the event.
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    - fzeroracer 8y ago
      You're saying the people that participated in the Unite the Right rally, who conspired to commit violence and escalate an already violent event and who were members of what is essentially a terrorist group were just defending themselves? No, they weren't attacked. They were the aggressors. They have a history of being aggressors. They openly admit to being violent and aggressive.
      - socksindrawers 8y ago
        Yes, that's what I'm saying. The people with the permit to demonstrate were attacked and defended themselves, and are being railroaded by the justice system. It's not illegal to be proud of defending your right to free speech with self defense. Meanwhile the people who show up with weapons and masks, and with no permit and incite the violence don't even get arrested. It even happened a few days ago at a Trump rally. A reporter got harassed and attacked, and nothing will happen to the perpetrators - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j693_xvdGTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j693_xvdGTI
ConcernedCoder 8y ago
My unpopular opinion: Questioning someone longer than they want to provide answers, when that same person is unable to leave the interview is a form of torture -- change my mind.
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- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  Under that reasoning I don't see how any form of detainment could not be considered torture as well, including pretty much all public education. One must accept that the real world is not made of lines that provide convenient barriers between concepts, in other words, there are degrees of torture, and some will be much more acceptable than others.
  - pas 8y ago
    The efficacy of learning for sitting in classes is very low. Especially for those who don't want to be there. So, yes, it's a quite pointless form of torture. (Kids who loathe school need therapy, not "just" school.)
- rmah 8y ago
  Your request is, at its heart, a question about the definition of the word "torture". The pedestrian definition of "torture" as per the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: 1: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure 2: a) something that causes agony or pain; b) anguish of body or mind 3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument I guess definition 2b in the context of "mind" fits best with your proposition. Which then leads to the definition of "anguish". Alternatively, we can examine the legal definition, which will vary by jurisdiction, but for completeness, I will link to the UN definition at https://www.apt.ch/en/what-is-torture/ https://www.apt.ch/en/what-is-torture/. In brief: "Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession" Here, you'd have to ask if prolonged unwanted questioning causes "severe [mental] pain or suffering". And finally, perhaps you mean torture in the figurative sense. Either way, if simply questioning someone "longer than they want" is "torture" then pretty much all of us have, at some point tortured someone. At that point, the word "torture" becomes synonymous with "discomfort" or "to annoy" and would, IMO, lose all utility from a legal point of view. In the final analysis, what this boils down to is that the world does not exist to serve your desires. Unpleasant things can and will happen to you. Even being asked questions you don't want to answer in situations where you cannot leave. While an individual may never have experienced anything more unpleasant than that, and thus it feels horrible to them, the fact is that there are far far FAR more unpleasant experiences that millions of others have faced. Society does not owe the sheltered more than the less sheltered.
ekianjo 8y ago
> I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. You could say the following as well: I don't see the problem. Dictatorship is normal around the world. Since when is something normal just because it's widespread? There is no reason to keep someone in jail unless there is a strong suspicion they are a threat to others, or a risk of flight.
dalore 8y ago
You can't leave until you confess or payup isn't a problem? With no access to family OR legal representation throughout the process?
SkyBelow 8y ago
> Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession. There are also done under threat. "Plea guilty to X and take 6 months in prison, or we will charge you with Y which carries 10 years in prison. If you choose the second option we will give you an overworked public defender who loses 90% of the time." In effect, it is punishing people for insisting on their right to a jury trial.
- SkyBelow 8y ago
  *There -> They're My self disappointment is immeasurable.

deugtniet 8y ago

I find it interesting how Japan and Germany both have a constitution that was essentially written by Americans after the second world war. But there is a big difference in civil liberties between these countries. E.G. If the police charge you in Japan, there is very little chance not being sentenced to something (or taken hostage). Compared to Germany where you would have a much fairer trial.

mafribe 8y ago
Aside, not relevant to the article discussed here. constitution that was essentially written by Americans I cannot speak about Japan, but that's historically false for Germany. If you look at the list of participants in the main events that drafted the West German constitution such as the Rittersturz-Konferenz [1] and the Verfassungskonvent auf Herrenchiemsee [2], then you'll see that all participants are German. Naturally, the allies had to agree, but they were split in a big way. The Soviet Union anyway, but the US and France really had very different ideas. France, in particular, wanted to snatch the Saar region. Naturally the drafters of the German constitution were inspired in particular by the US constitution, because it was rather successful. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rittersturz-Konferenz https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rittersturz-Konferenz [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungskonvent_auf_Herrenchiemsee https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungskonvent_auf_Herrenc...
- deugtniet 8y ago
  My constitutional knowledge on the German constitution is a bit rusty, but I guess you hit the nail on the head when you say: 'Naturally, the allies had to agree'. The Allies were the ones that required these conferences and approved of the Germans that went there. I guess the English and the French had some say, but really the big dog of the allies was the US. So I stand by my statement.
  - mafribe 8y ago
    I'd be interested to learn which part of the german constitution was "essentially written by the americans". Can you give an example? Just one? Please don't forget that (1) the allies had really diametrically opposed goals -- France had to be coerced by the UK and the US to agree to the draft constiution. Moreover, (2) the allies tried hard to avoid the impression that they were forcing anything on the german drafters. Only the date for the drafting conference was an allied constraint: 1. September 1948. The allies wanted to West-German population to accept the constitution, remember the cold was was hotting up at the time, and Soviet union was good at exploiting discontent. approved of the Germans that went there Is that even true? Was there an official approval process? Have you got a reference for this claim?

ttul 8y ago

A hundred years ago, Japan was a feudal society. Apparently, some of the old traditions live on.

u10 8y ago
Japan wasn't a feudal society 100 years ago, in fact, they had beaten a western power 10 years prior. Not to mention the 'West' just finished 4 years of blowing each other up, not very "Civilized" imo.
- rhizome 8y ago
  And also not to mention that while their internal justice may have been questionable (as it always is, everywhere), the Edo period had zero war for 250 years. Imagine the US never having been in a war since before the Declaration of Independence. Would that GP included that in their criticism.
GuiA 8y ago
The feudal era in Japan is considered to have ended with the shogunate, ie the Meiji restoration (1868).
- mc32 8y ago
  To be fair to the OP I don’t think they were invoking the end of the shogunate but rather that because it had ended within memory of the defeat to the allies, these vestiges were relevant and were (and continue) to be in the conscience of Japanese society.
zumu 8y ago
Their constitution was drafted mostly by the Americans. I don't think that's a fair conclusion to draw here.

sara123226 8y ago

World's biggest cat Even you can't believe it's size See her video https://howto105.blogspot.com/2019/04/worlds-biggest-cat.html https://howto105.blogspot.com/2019/04/worlds-biggest-cat.htm... See the video a dog shopping and lots of other acts like humans http://bit.ly/2DCpo9I http://bit.ly/2DCpo9I Even you can't believe there is a hen in world's biggest animals See the video how they looks and what they do https://cutt.ly/1rOU7Q https://cutt.ly/1rOU7Q Fish walking with legs like humans See the video on link below http://bit.ly/2XRGyYD http://bit.ly/2XRGyYD This couple is different Girls are both twins and boys are also twin brothers see how they look in video http://bit.ly/2VwoZQd http://bit.ly/2VwoZQd A cute dog is dancing in video Just watch this video and try to control your laugh http://bit.ly/2ZK1XVs http://bit.ly/2ZK1XVs

corey_moncure 8y ago

Who is the writer and what is his angle here? It looks like this is his only contribution to this outlet. A google search on his name turns up nothing.

cerealbad 8y ago
Outside Board Director, Former Executive Officer at US/Japan Multinationals, Retired Int'l Business Attorney. you can find him on linkedin. https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/eneiheisel https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/eneiheisel
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vectorEQ 8y ago

i find it interesting that if a normal person gets detained like this, no one fucking cares. ;)

anonu 8y ago

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Ghosn is innocent. He may very well have created special corporate structures to siphon off cash - and if he did, he certainly didn't do it alone. I think he regretted not taking the helm of GM where he saw US top execs easily earning $20, $30mm a year with no complaints from the public...

on_and_off 8y ago
>Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people This should have absolutely no bearing on how the justice system handles him.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dopamean 8y ago
  Seriously! I know it happens but I feel like it's rare to see someone seem to explicitly argue that someone's business success should be a mitigating factor when considering their crimes.
  - mc32 8y ago
    While not to this degree “mitigating circumstances” is a concept in law, so while I disagree with OP, it is a thing of sorts in some traditions of law.
    - on_and_off 8y ago
      That's not what mitigating circumstances are for AFAIK. Here are the examples given in a law dictionary : "a young man shoots his father after years of being beaten, belittled, sworn at and treated without love. "Heat of passion" or "diminished capacity" are forms of such mitigating circumstances" mitigating circumstances are conditions that explain and partially excuse a behavior. If anything, being a very wealthy exec that does not need money but still stealing would be an aggravating circumstance. However, if you look at prison terms, whether this person is a danger to society or not is a big factor. We could also talk a lot about imprisonment and whether it should be used as a punition or only as a way to protect society against some very limited cases of dangerous individuals.

Thaxll 8y ago

Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country, on the other it has old laws / weird mentality about some modern concepts for society, ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_...

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
> Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?
- teachrdan 8y ago
  I believe they are referring to Japan's low rate of violent crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Statistics
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
    Which is exactly the error I have been pointing out? Or are you saying that people being forced into prison for no fault of their own is being counted as violent crime in that statistic?
- hamilyon2 8y ago
  Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil. This is how it is that safe.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil. This is how it is that safe. Or, the criminals are organized and have connections and unspoken agreements with the authorities, existing in a kind of truce. (EDIT: In essence, the seven to seventy times thinking over has been enshrined and institutionalized.)

AcerbicZero 8y ago

I'm not going to tell the Japanese how to run their society, primarily because I'm not Japanese, they're a sovereign nation, and there is no evidence that the system I'm currently subjected to is any better or worse. If the Japanese people want to change this, and want external support to change this, that is an entirely different discussion from what was in this article.

stcredzero 8y ago
there is no evidence that the system I'm currently subjected to is any better or worse There's plenty of evidence in the form of the many people who want to come here, and in the form of the many people who have come here and established successful happy lives. My family history is evidence. Inherent, universal human rights are the right side of history. The history of the world shows this.
stale2002 8y ago
I mean, places like Saudi Arabia and Iran give people the death penalty for being gay. Being a "sovereign" nation is not a justification for anything. I am happy to denounce bad thing that other countries do, because of my "sovereign" right to do so.

noego 8y ago

> During detention, both were subject to extensive questioning by prosecutors without an attorney present. Videotapes of Ghosn’s questioning — a new feature added in the Criminal Procedure Reform law in 2016 in direct response to documented abuses — were made available to his attorneys who were present at the detention center, but lawyers were not permitted in the room where questioning took place. > The system must change. > First, every suspect should have the right to consult a lawyer as soon as the case is in the hands of prosecutors, and questioning should be prohibited in the absence of an attorney. The article makes no attempt whatsoever to explain why the above change "must" be made. I'm on the fence on this matter, but the article just sounds like a sanctimonious scolding of Japan for not doing what other Western countries are doing. "We're all doing it, so you better do it too" isn't a particularly compelling argument. In fact, given how much more effective their criminal Justice system is compared to America's, I would err on the side of keeping up their good work.

stcredzero 8y ago
"We're all doing it, so you better do it too" isn't a particularly compelling argument. That's not the argument. The real argument is from principle. The principle of inherent human rights.
- noego 8y ago
  Having a lawyer present while being questioned as an "inherent human right"? Why is that? Why not your parents, spouse, children and best friend as well? I don't recall seeing this anywhere in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. By what reasoning have you decided that having a lawyer present is an "inherent human right"?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    It's a part of due process. One underlying principle or right would be along the lines of Presumption of innocence. There are all sorts of non-obvious shenanigans which the authorities can pull, otherwise, which given the authorities the unchecked power to pressure or harass individuals. Obviously, that is against individual human rights.

_cs2017_ 8y ago

Edit: I just realized that the nearly 100% conviction rate is only for those who go to trial. A third of the people who are detained are released without trial. So ignore this post: my main assumption (that arrest is similar to conviction) was incorrect. --- Maybe one way to think of the Japanese justice system is that the trial happens before the defendant is arrested. After all, the conviction rate is nearly 100%, so in some sense the actual trial is just a formality. From that perspective, it's not surprising that defendants may be detained without bail for weeks: the system treats them as if they are already convicted. It seems to me that with such a system, it's far too easy to convict an innocent person: after all, the decision is made by prosecutors, who are usually incentivized to err on the side of conviction (both by career pressures and by personal predisposition). Do we know whether Japan has a really high false conviction rate? It's probably very hard to answer, since it's unclear how anyone could collect such statistics. If it turns out that false convictions are rare in Japan, it may imply the prosecutors are actually trying to discover the truth rather than convict. Which would be a very interesting deviation from any other justice system I know of.

b_tterc_p 8y ago
It’s mostly because their system is underfunded so they don’t bother going to court unless a win is guaranteed.
- _cs2017_ 8y ago
  Interesting. Wouldn't that imply that a lot of crimes are not investigated, and/or suspected criminals are let go?
  - b_tterc_p 8y ago
    Yep
Causality1 8y ago
Like much of Japanese society, appearances and propriety are very important. Sometimes that means releasing criminals who might not be found guilty. Sometimes it means homicides get declared suicides.

tus87 8y ago

I find Western criticism of Japan's legal system hilarious. > Japanese prosecutors subject suspects to up to eight hours of daily questioning while they are detained in a bid to obtain a confession, shutting off access to their family and barring them from obtaining legal assistance during the questioning. And according to the popular narrative, it’s all done capriciously, with the nefarious machinations of the state lurking behind. This is true in almost every western country except the US. England, Canada, Australia etc you have no right to a lawyer during questioning. Police will destroy and cover up evidence in attempt to frame people on a regular basis, and basically join the prosecution from day 1 instead of investigating crime. They seek certain sorts of convictions to please their politics masters. They much rather a rape conviction than a false accusation conviction for example. They will prosecute people against the weight of evidence, where in fact the only evidence is exculpatory. Consider the case of Mark Pearson. Falsely accused of a rape after bumping into a woman in a subway station. Video evidence proved it wasn't possible, so police slowed down the footage to make it appear it did happen. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cps-slowed-down-cctv-footage-of-commuter-accused-of-sexual-assault-to-look-like-he-had-more-time-to-a6861181.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cps-slowed-down-... Now if this same thing happened in Japan, if they saw the video footage that basically proved it was a false accusation, do you think they would have acted as capriciously as UK police, or maybe charged the woman instead? The narcissism of the Western political/legal class knows no bounds.

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mindgam3 8y ago

The real mindfuck here isn't just that Japanese law allows the authorities to question you during detention (before being charged with anything), all day every day, with no attorney present. Nor is it that they can restrict access to the outside world, only allowing you to speak to family for max 20m a day, with a translator + officer present at all times. No, the real kicker is that the clock for the 20-30 day detention period starts fresh every time, for each charge they want to investigate. This means that they can essentially keep people in detention for as long as they want by having a list of charges and "investigating" them one at a time. If you're used to things like due process, "give me my phone call", etc, the Japanese justice system is quite difficult to wrap your head around. I have no idea if Ghosn is guilty of what he is accused of. But there are massive pressures to extract confessions from people in his position. And forced confessions reduce the legitimacy of the entire justice system.