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What is the general rule you use to distinguish > ISIS sympathizers, Nazis, Stalinists, or pedophiles from > gay couples, catholics, or divorced mothers with

What is the general rule you use to distinguish > ISIS sympathizers, Nazis, Stalinists, or pedophiles from > gay couples, catholics, or divorced mothers with three children ? Without a general rule, it looks like you're just repeating whatever random confluence of social pressures led to your belief. You mentioned inciting crime and civil discourse, but not every member of those groups will be doing that. Somebody saying "I like Stalin" isn't inciting any crime or violating any rules of civil discourse, yet you'll want them banned just for their belief. So there's something else you're judging them by that you're not saying. Personally, I think you're judging them according to their group stereotypes. It's particularly evident in your classification of pedophiles. Surely you know that pedophilia is a condition people just have through no fault of their own. Why punish people for their sexuality? I think you're confusing pedophiles with child molesters because you apply the stereotype to all of them. > there is no need to be tolerant towards the intolerant. Can you explain how that's not obviously contradictory? You must have two different meanings for the word tolerant. What are they? Your argument about toxicity ruining forums is disproven by the lasting popularity of Reddit which uses subreddits to allow variety and keep offensive things isolated from general passers by. They are effectively an implementation of the personal filters I was talking about. It's also disproven by the internet as a whole which has both 4chan and Hacker News coexisting without turning the whole world off the internet because it's all toxic. I'm not talking about breaking the law. That's a separate issue. I would be fine with companies just obeying the law. If I didn't like the law, I'd challenge the law, not the companies for complying with it. Really, they need to provide different filters for different countries, which they do. In some countries, promotion of homosexuality is illegal. You may think about these laws whatever you want, but the reality is that they exist. > and all obvious trolls had "won" every argument. Here you've admitted that your real intention is what I suspected. To control the thoughts of other people. You want everyone to conform to your personal political beliefs. You're afraid of free speech because people might be led away from the one correct set of beliefs that you personally have somehow been gifted with (despite growing up in a world with free speech). Don't you see the arrogance of that? Anyway, my main point is that I think big social media companies have so much power over so many people that they should be required to give greater freedoms to their users than small forums are. Kind of like how anti-trust laws restrict the behavior of big companies but allow small ones more freedom.

jonathanstrange 8y ago
I've already told you the general rule and you've already heard me. If a minority calls for violence, promotes crimes, or blatantly disregards the basic rules of civil discourse, then the general duty to protect minorities need no longer apply to this minority. I'm not even talking about morals here, this is a fact that holds in every society. There are social norms, including norms that govern discussions. Break the norms and you'll be sanctioned for it. >> there is no need to be tolerant towards the intolerant. > Can you explain how that's not obviously contradictory? You must have two different meanings for the word tolerant. What are they? No, it's one meaning and there is no contradiction. The phrase was coined by Sir Karl Popper. Tolerance is not an absolute moral principle, it is a normative concept that is only reserved for those people who are tolerant themselves. In that sense, it's quite similar to respect, which also is not deserved unconditionally but needs to be earned first. If someone wants to beat you up, you do not have to be tolerant towards this person. If someone calls for the destruction of your society (as e.g. Steve Bannon has done) or calls for violence or crimes, then you do not have to be tolerant towards this person. In fact, you should not be tolerant towards such a person. You should be tolerant towards Muslims, because they are 1.8 billion people and vast majority of them is peaceful, but you should not be tolerant towards Muslim terrorists. You should be tolerant towards Christians, but you should not be tolerant towards Christians who are intolerant towards atheists or who call for killing doctors who help with abortions. And so on and so forth. You should get it by now. It's not really complicated and there is certainly no contradiction involved. > Somebody saying "I like Stalin" isn't inciting any crime or violating any rules of civil discourse, yet you'll want them banned just for their belief. No, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I mentioned these groups as examples of groups that (usually) call for violence, the destruction of our society, or crimes. I do not want to ban such persons in general. Posters should be banned if they violate the basic laws of civil discourse (be kind, don't troll, don't be a racist, don't call for violence, etc.) or intentionally instigate violence or promote crimes. What I also said, however, is that the decision of what to ban or not to ban should be left to the forum owners. If I have a forum and don't want Nazis to use it as a platform, I have the right to ban them, just as I have a right to ban motorcycle enthusiasts from my rose gardening forum. Users of private forums aren't entitled to anything. > Here you've admitted that your real intention is what I suspected. To control the thoughts of other people. Not at all. As I've stated very clearly, everybody has a certain desire to muffle voices of people who they think are obviously wrong and it would be incoherent not to have this desire. You have that desire, too. However, I've stated clearly that this is not the motivation of companies and private forum owners, and it certainly is not my motivation. As I've said before, I'm fine with kill files. I was trying to lay out the actual reasons to you why companies and forum owners ban forums and remove posts, not laying out some ominous personal motives. See below about my personal attitude. Your reasons of why forum owners, especially companies, ban forums or remove posts are imaginary and based on your own prejudices. You have presented 0 evidence for this interpretation, which is fairly implausible and obviously coloured by your biases. As I've said, companies like Reddit are primarily concerned with the legal situation and with the practicalities of keeping their forums attractive. They are companies who want to attract the largest number of mainstream users, not some fringe wackos and extremists. > You want everyone to conform to your personal political beliefs. False. One of my colleagues is a Social Darwinist and Nazi, and I have no problem discussing with him, because he adheres to the basic rules of civil discourse. He does not insult other people, at least not directly, does not call for violence, and is at least clever enough to not overtly call for genocide, etc. Ironically, another colleague of mine is an ardent and 100% convinced communist and has personally defended Stalin in conversations. Again, no problem on my side. They are both extreme idiots who persistently get every conceivable fact wrong, and they both have unpleasant personalities (which I've always considered a coincidence). They are annoying, but that's about it. I don't care about other people's political beliefs, as long as they do not endorse violence or threaten it, keep it reasonably polite - I don't care the occasional insult either - and as long as they do not actively work on destroying other people's lives. If they threaten violence or actively work on destroying democracy, or are just intentionally trolling or insulting people, then they should be banned. Their political beliefs are completely irrelevant to this decision. I'd just as readily ban a trolling rose gardener who calls for trampling other people's roses as I'd ban a Stalinist preparing death lists of political opponents. As I've tried to explain to you (but you refuse to listen), the reasons why someone ought to be banned are not political, the primary goal of such measures is to keep civil discourse possible. If the number of toxic users is too high, this is no longer possible, and these tend to bunch up in questionable forums. This has been proven again and again on every conceivable forum I've been on since the mid 90s. It's not possible run a public pseudonymous forum in a sustainable way without heavy moderation. Apparently, too many trolls and extremists have too much time at hand, possibly because many of them are unemployed. > Anyway, my main point is that I think big social media companies have so much power over so many people that they should be required to give greater freedoms to their users than small forums are. You're focusing on the responsibility of companies towards their users and I agree with that, the hurdles for banning should be higher for these than for small forum owners, because they have a greater responsibility. However, companies also have a responsibility to their own staff and to society as a whole. The sad fact is that once pseudonymity is in place, many people forget the rules of basic civil discourse and decency, and at the same time social control mechanisms from face-to-face communication are no longer in place. These need to be replaced by moderation and, if necessary, by banning, or else the quality of the conversations deteriorates drastically and quickly. I know people who measure the quality of online arguments and it turns out to be far worse than anything you encounter in face-to-face communication. The evidence is damning and quite shocking. Most people do not even argue online, they mostly just voice their opinions and insult others. Take that into account, too. Companies have a responsibility to improve the quality of discourse. (This also means fighting clickbait, viral ad campaigns, fake news etc.)

jonathanstrange 8y ago

I've already told you the general rule and you've already heard me. If a minority calls for violence, promotes crimes, or blatantly disregards the basic rules of civil discourse, then the general duty to protect minorities need no longer apply to this minority. I'm not even talking about morals here, this is a fact that holds in every society. There are social norms, including norms that govern discussions. Break the norms and you'll be sanctioned for it. >> there is no need to be tolerant towards the intolerant. > Can you explain how that's not obviously contradictory? You must have two different meanings for the word tolerant. What are they? No, it's one meaning and there is no contradiction. The phrase was coined by Sir Karl Popper. Tolerance is not an absolute moral principle, it is a normative concept that is only reserved for those people who are tolerant themselves. In that sense, it's quite similar to respect, which also is not deserved unconditionally but needs to be earned first. If someone wants to beat you up, you do not have to be tolerant towards this person. If someone calls for the destruction of your society (as e.g. Steve Bannon has done) or calls for violence or crimes, then you do not have to be tolerant towards this person. In fact, you should not be tolerant towards such a person. You should be tolerant towards Muslims, because they are 1.8 billion people and vast majority of them is peaceful, but you should not be tolerant towards Muslim terrorists. You should be tolerant towards Christians, but you should not be tolerant towards Christians who are intolerant towards atheists or who call for killing doctors who help with abortions. And so on and so forth. You should get it by now. It's not really complicated and there is certainly no contradiction involved. > Somebody saying "I like Stalin" isn't inciting any crime or violating any rules of civil discourse, yet you'll want them banned just for their belief. No, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I mentioned these groups as examples of groups that (usually) call for violence, the destruction of our society, or crimes. I do not want to ban such persons in general. Posters should be banned if they violate the basic laws of civil discourse (be kind, don't troll, don't be a racist, don't call for violence, etc.) or intentionally instigate violence or promote crimes. What I also said, however, is that the decision of what to ban or not to ban should be left to the forum owners. If I have a forum and don't want Nazis to use it as a platform, I have the right to ban them, just as I have a right to ban motorcycle enthusiasts from my rose gardening forum. Users of private forums aren't entitled to anything. > Here you've admitted that your real intention is what I suspected. To control the thoughts of other people. Not at all. As I've stated very clearly, everybody has a certain desire to muffle voices of people who they think are obviously wrong and it would be incoherent not to have this desire. You have that desire, too. However, I've stated clearly that this is not the motivation of companies and private forum owners, and it certainly is not my motivation. As I've said before, I'm fine with kill files. I was trying to lay out the actual reasons to you why companies and forum owners ban forums and remove posts, not laying out some ominous personal motives. See below about my personal attitude. Your reasons of why forum owners, especially companies, ban forums or remove posts are imaginary and based on your own prejudices. You have presented 0 evidence for this interpretation, which is fairly implausible and obviously coloured by your biases. As I've said, companies like Reddit are primarily concerned with the legal situation and with the practicalities of keeping their forums attractive. They are companies who want to attract the largest number of mainstream users, not some fringe wackos and extremists. > You want everyone to conform to your personal political beliefs. False. One of my colleagues is a Social Darwinist and Nazi, and I have no problem discussing with him, because he adheres to the basic rules of civil discourse. He does not insult other people, at least not directly, does not call for violence, and is at least clever enough to not overtly call for genocide, etc. Ironically, another colleague of mine is an ardent and 100% convinced communist and has personally defended Stalin in conversations. Again, no problem on my side. They are both extreme idiots who persistently get every conceivable fact wrong, and they both have unpleasant personalities (which I've always considered a coincidence). They are annoying, but that's about it. I don't care about other people's political beliefs, as long as they do not endorse violence or threaten it, keep it reasonably polite - I don't care the occasional insult either - and as long as they do not actively work on destroying other people's lives. If they threaten violence or actively work on destroying democracy, or are just intentionally trolling or insulting people, then they should be banned. Their political beliefs are completely irrelevant to this decision. I'd just as readily ban a trolling rose gardener who calls for trampling other people's roses as I'd ban a Stalinist preparing death lists of political opponents. As I've tried to explain to you (but you refuse to listen), the reasons why someone ought to be banned are not political, the primary goal of such measures is to keep civil discourse possible. If the number of toxic users is too high, this is no longer possible, and these tend to bunch up in questionable forums. This has been proven again and again on every conceivable forum I've been on since the mid 90s. It's not possible run a public pseudonymous forum in a sustainable way without heavy moderation. Apparently, too many trolls and extremists have too much time at hand, possibly because many of them are unemployed. > Anyway, my main point is that I think big social media companies have so much power over so many people that they should be required to give greater freedoms to their users than small forums are. You're focusing on the responsibility of companies towards their users and I agree with that, the hurdles for banning should be higher for these than for small forum owners, because they have a greater responsibility. However, companies also have a responsibility to their own staff and to society as a whole. The sad fact is that once pseudonymity is in place, many people forget the rules of basic civil discourse and decency, and at the same time social control mechanisms from face-to-face communication are no longer in place. These need to be replaced by moderation and, if necessary, by banning, or else the quality of the conversations deteriorates drastically and quickly. I know people who measure the quality of online arguments and it turns out to be far worse than anything you encounter in face-to-face communication. The evidence is damning and quite shocking. Most people do not even argue online, they mostly just voice their opinions and insult others. Take that into account, too. Companies have a responsibility to improve the quality of discourse. (This also means fighting clickbait, viral ad campaigns, fake news etc.)