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Suicide is a perfect example of an anti-social behavior that must be stigmatized because the stigma itself serves as a major barrier to its proliferation. Remov

Suicide is a perfect example of an anti-social behavior that must be stigmatized because the stigma itself serves as a major barrier to its proliferation. Removing the stigma might make it easier on survivors and family, but it will actually increase the suicide rate by legitimizing suicide as an option for people that otherwise wouldn't do it. It's one of those situations where life must be accepted as something of a living hell and we can't make it better anytime soon.

DanBC 7y ago
When we interview people who attempted suicide but somehow survived (they would have died if they hadn't got timely medical attention) we see shame is a common emotion. These people know that ending their life is wrong, and this knowledge combined with their desire to end their life makes them feel worse, and it prevents them seeking help, and it makes it more likely that they will die.
- camelNotation 7y ago
  Yes, I realize that removing the stigma around suicide might help that subset of the population that are already in the midst of it, but what about in five years? Ten years? What effect will that have on others? We can't know for sure, but there is a common theme when it comes to the normalization of anti-social behavior. It helps the one, but hurts the many. You can look those that have attempted suicide in the eye and tell them not to be ashamed, but could you preach that message to a group of bullied teenagers after seeing the results of this study?
- jdietrich 7y ago
  Example: if a doctor asks you about suicidal thoughts in a negative phrasing (e.g. "No thoughts of harming yourself?" or "You're not planning on doing anything silly, are you?"), then you're significantly less likely to admit to suicidal thoughts. We have clinically effective interventions for reducing suicide risk, so even very subtle stigma could cost lives by stopping people from coming forward. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5379679/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5379679/
  - camelNotation 7y ago
    Would a student be more likely to admit to "thoughts of doing a school shooting" if school shootings weren't stigmatized? Yes, probably. Would an abuser be more likely to admit to "thoughts of beating up his wife" if domestic violence was not stigmatized? Yes, probably. But there is a very good reason why we stigmatize anti-social behaviors. They hurt other people. The stigma reinforces that message and removing the stigma hides that message. We are "the other people" and if you do that, you will hurt us too, not just yourself, so we aren't going to pretend it's okay because it isn't. The removal of stigmatization might make it easier for us to identify people doing awful things, but just knowing about something doesn't stop them from doing awful things. You aren't fixing the problem by getting them to admit it, you're just becoming more aware of that particular person's problems while also green-lighting half a dozen other people to do the same.
SkyBelow 7y ago
But then you run afoul of those seeking to having euthanasia viewed as a right. And as for the distinction between the two topics, people will commonly give a distinction that seems reasonable at the 50K' view but which breaks down at the 500' view.
sad-throwaway 7y ago
Why should suicide be seen as anti-social? You are trying to force those who just want their unbearable pain to be over to continue to live. I never understood it being seen as selfish for a similar reason. I disagree stigma will reduce the suicide rate - when I do feel very suicidal, I can tell you I don't care what anyone thinks. Pretty much the only reason I am alive is I haven't figured out a way to actually end it that's somewhat guaranteed, painless, and irreversible - I know if I were to fail an attempt and end up in the hospital, people like you would force me to stay alive, weather it be throwing me in a padded white room or giving me drugs. Oh perhaps if I'm in enough physical pain, my pain will be legitimized and I'll be allowed euthanasia. And yet, somehow I am the anti-social one. [this is a throwaway account so that I can talk openly about being depressed and suicidal]
- EdSharkey 7y ago
  It's antisocial because we're harmed and we're lessened by you removing yourself. Don't do it.
  - sad-throwaway 7y ago
    >we're lessened by you removing yourself I don't see how
    - vokep 7y ago
      Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. We're all pretty much the same, and in that, we all have pretty much the same potential to be better than whatever we are in this moment.
      - ionised 7y ago
        > Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. This is such an economists view on humanity and I can't help but wonder that assigning 'value' to people is part of what leads to increased suicide rates in the West in the first place. You want this person to stay alive and continue suffering, because they represent value to you. Dead, they are of no value to you. It's not the person's well-being you're interested in, it's what they can offer you to make your own life easier. How is that not selfish but ending your own suffering is?

DanBC 7y ago

When we interview people who attempted suicide but somehow survived (they would have died if they hadn't got timely medical attention) we see shame is a common emotion. These people know that ending their life is wrong, and this knowledge combined with their desire to end their life makes them feel worse, and it prevents them seeking help, and it makes it more likely that they will die.

camelNotation 7y ago
Yes, I realize that removing the stigma around suicide might help that subset of the population that are already in the midst of it, but what about in five years? Ten years? What effect will that have on others? We can't know for sure, but there is a common theme when it comes to the normalization of anti-social behavior. It helps the one, but hurts the many. You can look those that have attempted suicide in the eye and tell them not to be ashamed, but could you preach that message to a group of bullied teenagers after seeing the results of this study?
jdietrich 7y ago
Example: if a doctor asks you about suicidal thoughts in a negative phrasing (e.g. "No thoughts of harming yourself?" or "You're not planning on doing anything silly, are you?"), then you're significantly less likely to admit to suicidal thoughts. We have clinically effective interventions for reducing suicide risk, so even very subtle stigma could cost lives by stopping people from coming forward. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5379679/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5379679/
- camelNotation 7y ago
  Would a student be more likely to admit to "thoughts of doing a school shooting" if school shootings weren't stigmatized? Yes, probably. Would an abuser be more likely to admit to "thoughts of beating up his wife" if domestic violence was not stigmatized? Yes, probably. But there is a very good reason why we stigmatize anti-social behaviors. They hurt other people. The stigma reinforces that message and removing the stigma hides that message. We are "the other people" and if you do that, you will hurt us too, not just yourself, so we aren't going to pretend it's okay because it isn't. The removal of stigmatization might make it easier for us to identify people doing awful things, but just knowing about something doesn't stop them from doing awful things. You aren't fixing the problem by getting them to admit it, you're just becoming more aware of that particular person's problems while also green-lighting half a dozen other people to do the same.

SkyBelow 7y ago

But then you run afoul of those seeking to having euthanasia viewed as a right. And as for the distinction between the two topics, people will commonly give a distinction that seems reasonable at the 50K' view but which breaks down at the 500' view.

sad-throwaway 7y ago

Why should suicide be seen as anti-social? You are trying to force those who just want their unbearable pain to be over to continue to live. I never understood it being seen as selfish for a similar reason. I disagree stigma will reduce the suicide rate - when I do feel very suicidal, I can tell you I don't care what anyone thinks. Pretty much the only reason I am alive is I haven't figured out a way to actually end it that's somewhat guaranteed, painless, and irreversible - I know if I were to fail an attempt and end up in the hospital, people like you would force me to stay alive, weather it be throwing me in a padded white room or giving me drugs. Oh perhaps if I'm in enough physical pain, my pain will be legitimized and I'll be allowed euthanasia. And yet, somehow I am the anti-social one. [this is a throwaway account so that I can talk openly about being depressed and suicidal]

EdSharkey 7y ago
It's antisocial because we're harmed and we're lessened by you removing yourself. Don't do it.
- sad-throwaway 7y ago
  >we're lessened by you removing yourself I don't see how
  - vokep 7y ago
    Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. We're all pretty much the same, and in that, we all have pretty much the same potential to be better than whatever we are in this moment.
    - ionised 7y ago
      > Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. This is such an economists view on humanity and I can't help but wonder that assigning 'value' to people is part of what leads to increased suicide rates in the West in the first place. You want this person to stay alive and continue suffering, because they represent value to you. Dead, they are of no value to you. It's not the person's well-being you're interested in, it's what they can offer you to make your own life easier. How is that not selfish but ending your own suffering is?