7 ms·

When back in the early 00's the UK wanted to introduce a picture ID card, there were huge protests across the country that resulted in the scheme being shelved

When back in the early 00's the UK wanted to introduce a picture ID card, there were huge protests across the country that resulted in the scheme being shelved indefinitely. It took the UK years to even introduce a picture driving license (you might have seen the "counterpart" old driving licenses which were in use until very recently. They were a single A4 sheet with no picture on it). How ironic that despite the continued protests against picture ID cards based on privacy concerns, the UK is the most watched country based on the number of CCTV cameras per square mile, and now this.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>How ironic that despite the continued protests against picture ID cards based on privacy concerns, the UK is the most watched country based on the number of CCTV cameras per square mile, and now this. It's because people have given up hope of winning the war against the surveillance state but they still feel like they can opportunistically win a few battles.
- Silhouette 7y ago
  Most of the CCTV isn't operated by the government, though.
  - nihalot 7y ago
    Then by whom? Or do you mean that the CCTV systems are private(home/commercial/offices)?
    - ForHackernews 7y ago
      Yes, most CCTV in the UK is done by private companies.
lenkite 7y ago
Well..CCTV cameras caught the 2005 bomber's at King's Cross Station and helped establish their identities and their full itinerary when cross-referenced with other CCTV videos
- gmueckl 7y ago
  That was done by looking at the tapes afterwards. But hiw.many crimes were actually prevented by the cameras? Do they provably act as a deterrent? In how many cases did the cameras result in help arriving on time?
  - lenkite 7y ago
    Only MI5/GCHQ/OSCT can answer your questions with actual numbers. (EDIT) There are several studies on effectiveness of camera surveillance on crime prevention.The UK unlike other nations actually has a lot of material here. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10242694.2011.650481?src=recsys https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10242694.2011.6...
    - gmueckl 7y ago
      I haven't followed up. Are these numbers published? If not, I would tend to assume that they are too embarrassing to show. But despite my bias, I'm actually curious.
- ksajadi 7y ago
  I'm not disputing any facts if they are indeed facts. I am merely pointing out how the public opinion can be shaped to react differently given the same subject wrapped differently. I am very sure, inspecting phones has, or will at some point in future be used to stop some crime or terrorist attack, but that's not the point here.
  - lenkite 7y ago
    Yes, cameras in public spaces are one thing. Surveillance of private property (personal phones) is a completely different thing. I agree that the latter is terrible.
- fabricexpert 7y ago
  One case 14 years ago that didn’t prevent a terrorist attack is a terrible reason to give up civil liberties
_Codemonkeyism 7y ago
Because some people are happy with the public discussing ID cards with pictures, when the real deal is somewhere else. The same in Germany with taxes, people discuss increasing taxes for the rich, who are happy to confront this, because the real deal in Germany is not paying taxes, not paying social security and health insurance by the rich.
ionised 7y ago
Those CCTV cameras are owned and operated by a variety of different individuals, organisations and private companies though. It's not like its all state surveillance.
cstross 7y ago
The National ID Card controversy wasn't simply about a photo-ID card (as noted, UK driving licenses are biometric photo-ID cards—and have been since before the NID was mooted). The real problem was the integration of a National Identity Register, a universal biometric ID database storing numerous non-essential items that was to act as a central authentication point for access to all government (and many corporate) services. Failure to register was to be a criminal offense (in US terms, a felony); failure to update within a week of changing address, ditto (don't ask how this would work for the homeless, or for students and workers living away from home part-time): it was to be carried at all times on pain of a hefty fine: changes to your address had to be reflected in a new physical card (which would be charged for): and a whole bunch more stuff. Let's just say that it wasn't just a picture ID card; it was the camel's nose under the tent flap for a massively intrusive national database system with huge potential for misuse, abuse, and creeping changes of scope. Today the UK has a de-facto biometric authentication system in the shape of the Identity and Passport Office database and the DVLA driing license database: between these, there's roughly 90% coverage of the adult population. But because it's opt-in and voluntary, and the police can't at any moment challenge you to produce a card and arrest you instantly if you're not carrying it, it hasn't produced the same push-back. (As for those CCTV cameras? Most of them are in private premises, subject to GDPR data sharing restrictions. It's actually illegal for a shop CCTV system to cover the pavement outside, for example. The police only have access to them when a crime has been reported and half of them aren't working, as my wife discovered when her bicycle was stolen from right under a cluster of them …)
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Where the hell are all these Brexit loons when you need them? ID card protests for window dressing only - as long as it's Her Majesty's surveillance state instead of the EUSSR Bob's your uncle?
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    Because the one thing that old people fear more than Brussels is the teenagers down the block. If you truly believe that you are "good" and that only other people are "bad" then things like picture ID seem warm and friendly.
KineticLensman 7y ago
> (you might have seen the "counterpart" old driving licenses which were in use until very recently Non-photo UK driving licenses are in fact still legal [0] although they are not now issued. If you need a replacement or update (e.g. on address change) the new license will be the photo version. They are still valid for hire car. If I need photo ID I use my passport. I do not therefore have an official photo-based identity document on me when travelling routinely in the UK. [0] https://www.gov.uk/exchange-paper-driving-licence https://www.gov.uk/exchange-paper-driving-licence
- stordoff 7y ago
  > I do not therefore have an official photo-based identity document on me when travelling routinely in the UK. Neither do I - there's no requirement to carry your driving licence whilst driving.
Quarrelsome 7y ago
what brought most people onboard was that the government wanted people to pay for them. Obviously the NIR was the big deal but nobody cared about that.
detritus 7y ago
Oh Shit - I had NO idea the old driving licenses were invalid! Oh Gosh. It's been years since I owned a car, but I've been merrily hiring them here and abroad two or three times a year. I'm a bit surprised that no one has denied me a vehicle as a result :\ Thanks for the heads up - I guess I need to get mine updated! - ed OH. PHEW. @KineticLensman states this isn't quite the case in another response here. I did wodner why none of the hire companies had said anything!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Zenst 7y ago
Yes we as a country seem to be according to polls mostly in favour, but it depends upon how the poll question is framed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_on_the_British_national_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_on_the_British_n.... However a vocal minority are strongly against it. However, over in Europe - many countries there have national ID cards and equally I'm sure they have their share of distractors against them above and beyond criminal type reasons. As for the UK being the most watched CCTV density - well - have you seen the quality of most of those CCTV's, egads. Just look at some of the images the UK police release which have been pulled from CCTV. Very rare that their is ever anything that would stand up in court. Then most of these CCTV are private, mostly shops. So yes, we may (not sure if still have) the most per square mile, but darn - the quality on so many is terrible. But then, older camera's and the rush to be first often does that. Beijing on the other hand, now that's a CCTV network I dare say who could tell you were you lost your house keys in the park if so inclined. But we British do excel at irony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Situational_irony_-_Baker_Street_tube_station.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Situational_irony_-_Baker...

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

>How ironic that despite the continued protests against picture ID cards based on privacy concerns, the UK is the most watched country based on the number of CCTV cameras per square mile, and now this. It's because people have given up hope of winning the war against the surveillance state but they still feel like they can opportunistically win a few battles.

Silhouette 7y ago
Most of the CCTV isn't operated by the government, though.
- nihalot 7y ago
  Then by whom? Or do you mean that the CCTV systems are private(home/commercial/offices)?
  - ForHackernews 7y ago
    Yes, most CCTV in the UK is done by private companies.

lenkite 7y ago

Well..CCTV cameras caught the 2005 bomber's at King's Cross Station and helped establish their identities and their full itinerary when cross-referenced with other CCTV videos

gmueckl 7y ago
That was done by looking at the tapes afterwards. But hiw.many crimes were actually prevented by the cameras? Do they provably act as a deterrent? In how many cases did the cameras result in help arriving on time?
- lenkite 7y ago
  Only MI5/GCHQ/OSCT can answer your questions with actual numbers. (EDIT) There are several studies on effectiveness of camera surveillance on crime prevention.The UK unlike other nations actually has a lot of material here. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10242694.2011.650481?src=recsys https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10242694.2011.6...
  - gmueckl 7y ago
    I haven't followed up. Are these numbers published? If not, I would tend to assume that they are too embarrassing to show. But despite my bias, I'm actually curious.
ksajadi 7y ago
I'm not disputing any facts if they are indeed facts. I am merely pointing out how the public opinion can be shaped to react differently given the same subject wrapped differently. I am very sure, inspecting phones has, or will at some point in future be used to stop some crime or terrorist attack, but that's not the point here.
- lenkite 7y ago
  Yes, cameras in public spaces are one thing. Surveillance of private property (personal phones) is a completely different thing. I agree that the latter is terrible.
fabricexpert 7y ago
One case 14 years ago that didn’t prevent a terrorist attack is a terrible reason to give up civil liberties

_Codemonkeyism 7y ago

Because some people are happy with the public discussing ID cards with pictures, when the real deal is somewhere else. The same in Germany with taxes, people discuss increasing taxes for the rich, who are happy to confront this, because the real deal in Germany is not paying taxes, not paying social security and health insurance by the rich.

ionised 7y ago

Those CCTV cameras are owned and operated by a variety of different individuals, organisations and private companies though. It's not like its all state surveillance.

cstross 7y ago

The National ID Card controversy wasn't simply about a photo-ID card (as noted, UK driving licenses are biometric photo-ID cards—and have been since before the NID was mooted). The real problem was the integration of a National Identity Register, a universal biometric ID database storing numerous non-essential items that was to act as a central authentication point for access to all government (and many corporate) services. Failure to register was to be a criminal offense (in US terms, a felony); failure to update within a week of changing address, ditto (don't ask how this would work for the homeless, or for students and workers living away from home part-time): it was to be carried at all times on pain of a hefty fine: changes to your address had to be reflected in a new physical card (which would be charged for): and a whole bunch more stuff. Let's just say that it wasn't just a picture ID card; it was the camel's nose under the tent flap for a massively intrusive national database system with huge potential for misuse, abuse, and creeping changes of scope. Today the UK has a de-facto biometric authentication system in the shape of the Identity and Passport Office database and the DVLA driing license database: between these, there's roughly 90% coverage of the adult population. But because it's opt-in and voluntary, and the police can't at any moment challenge you to produce a card and arrest you instantly if you're not carrying it, it hasn't produced the same push-back. (As for those CCTV cameras? Most of them are in private premises, subject to GDPR data sharing restrictions. It's actually illegal for a shop CCTV system to cover the pavement outside, for example. The police only have access to them when a crime has been reported and half of them aren't working, as my wife discovered when her bicycle was stolen from right under a cluster of them …)

selimthegrim 7y ago
Where the hell are all these Brexit loons when you need them? ID card protests for window dressing only - as long as it's Her Majesty's surveillance state instead of the EUSSR Bob's your uncle?
- sandworm101 7y ago
  Because the one thing that old people fear more than Brussels is the teenagers down the block. If you truly believe that you are "good" and that only other people are "bad" then things like picture ID seem warm and friendly.

KineticLensman 7y ago

> (you might have seen the "counterpart" old driving licenses which were in use until very recently Non-photo UK driving licenses are in fact still legal [0] although they are not now issued. If you need a replacement or update (e.g. on address change) the new license will be the photo version. They are still valid for hire car. If I need photo ID I use my passport. I do not therefore have an official photo-based identity document on me when travelling routinely in the UK. [0] https://www.gov.uk/exchange-paper-driving-licence https://www.gov.uk/exchange-paper-driving-licence

stordoff 7y ago
> I do not therefore have an official photo-based identity document on me when travelling routinely in the UK. Neither do I - there's no requirement to carry your driving licence whilst driving.

Quarrelsome 7y ago

what brought most people onboard was that the government wanted people to pay for them. Obviously the NIR was the big deal but nobody cared about that.

detritus 7y ago

Oh Shit - I had NO idea the old driving licenses were invalid! Oh Gosh. It's been years since I owned a car, but I've been merrily hiring them here and abroad two or three times a year. I'm a bit surprised that no one has denied me a vehicle as a result :\ Thanks for the heads up - I guess I need to get mine updated! - ed OH. PHEW. @KineticLensman states this isn't quite the case in another response here. I did wodner why none of the hire companies had said anything!

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Zenst 7y ago

Yes we as a country seem to be according to polls mostly in favour, but it depends upon how the poll question is framed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_on_the_British_national_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_on_the_British_n.... However a vocal minority are strongly against it. However, over in Europe - many countries there have national ID cards and equally I'm sure they have their share of distractors against them above and beyond criminal type reasons. As for the UK being the most watched CCTV density - well - have you seen the quality of most of those CCTV's, egads. Just look at some of the images the UK police release which have been pulled from CCTV. Very rare that their is ever anything that would stand up in court. Then most of these CCTV are private, mostly shops. So yes, we may (not sure if still have) the most per square mile, but darn - the quality on so many is terrible. But then, older camera's and the rush to be first often does that. Beijing on the other hand, now that's a CCTV network I dare say who could tell you were you lost your house keys in the park if so inclined. But we British do excel at irony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Situational_irony_-_Baker_Street_tube_station.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Situational_irony_-_Baker...