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I wish the journalist had asked more about this seemingly alarming statistic: "Zendrive now has its monitoring technology on 60 million phones, roughly one of

by sib 8y ago

I wish the journalist had asked more about this seemingly alarming statistic: "Zendrive now has its monitoring technology on 60 million phones, roughly one of every four U.S. drivers" For example: How did this "monitoring technology" get on 60M phones? Do the owners know it's there? Is it hidden in other apps? Is there clear disclosure of its existence in those apps? What is done with this data? Who has access? Is it anonymized? Is it sold to third parties? Is it used for advertising or other non-safety-related purposes? How do they distinguish between drivers and passengers? What do they do about COPPA if it's on the phone of an under-13-year-old? Etc.

jolmg 8y ago
It seems like Zendrive is something you can integrate on your apps. Their target market seems to be companies that have fleets to manage, like Uber or DHL. From Zendrive's FAQ page[1]: > How does it work? > Zendrive measures driver safety using only phone sensors. Integrate the Zendrive SDK into your driver app, and we’ll measure your drivers’ Caution, Control, and Focus while on the road, as well as detect collisions. This is done by measuring a wide variety of safety factors, like speeding, hard brakes, sharp accelerations, phone use, swerving, length of time driving, time of day, and many many more. > Who’s it for? How are people using this? > We built Zendrive for any On Demand company with a growing fleet, to help them manage their growth. With in-depth analysis showing any particular driver’s safety, or fleet-wide safety, it gives fleet managers the tools they need to improve their fleet’s driving to ensure safety, reduce risk and liability, and increase savings. > Since launch we’ve found additional types of companies getting value from Zendrive, from fleet management platform companies, to activity tracking companies and expense tracking companies who use the driving detection in the technology, to hardware companies looking for new safety features. [1] https://www.zendrive.com/faq/ https://www.zendrive.com/faq/
- blocke 8y ago
  Let's not pretend this is a full list. It's just a list of example apps. "Hardware companies" Does that mean bundled by carriers and crappy Android phones? Lovely.
  - jolmg 8y ago
    Well, I doubt they'll reject clients based on the use they intend to give to their product, but I can't really fault them for that. It seems like a legitimate business. Hardly unethical.
    - gbrown 8y ago
      Perhaps we could imagine better privacy laws. The fact that something is legal, and a legitimate business, doesn't mean that it's good or should be allowed.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - mixmastamyk 7y ago
        Without explicit permission given.
      - chrismeller 7y ago
        Most (all?) of their examples in the FAQ are related to corporate drivers, not individuals. Something like Uber would be a bit of a gray area since you use your own vehicle, but all the others are more like DHL and FedEx, where you're driving a company-provided vehicle and there should be no expectation of privacy in regards to how you operate that vehicle.
        gbrown 7y ago
        Those are the examples given, but that wouldn't explain the huge numbers claimed elsewhere - nearly a quarter of phones in the US. Pardon me for not assuming that a data gathering corporation has my best interests at heart.
    - dillonmckay 7y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope This was legit, too.
username223 8y ago
I immediately wondered that as well. In the best case, insurers are giving people a discount to install an app, like health insurers handing out connected fitness monitors. That's creepy, but only mildly so by today's standards. However, I recently renewed my car insurance with a popular company, and they didn't ask me to install an app, so that seems unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if it were silently bundled into a bunch of apps that have location access and run in the background. It gives insurers vaguely-useful data, but mostly exists to hoover up sweet, sweet location data. EDIT: See below[1,2]. It's the extra-creepy version. [1] https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-ride-hailing-safety-20160526-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-ride-ha... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19780361 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19780361
noworld 8y ago
This is the closest the article comes to answering that: > The reason for all this data is that at least one in five U.S. auto insurance policies now offers a potential discount if the customer consents to a vehicle monitor. But I would also like some kind of affirmation that the software isn't being backdoored onto everyone's phones.
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  I thought those were typically GPS loggers that were powered by (and pulled data from) the OBDII port[1]? An app-based alternative could have some of the same info, though presumably less accurate acceleration and braking data. 1: https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/how-do-those-car-insurance-tracking-devices-work https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/how-do-tho...
fmajid 8y ago
The founder is an ex-Facebook guy. Of course it is going to ride roughshod over privacy.
redwards510 8y ago
Indeed! Unless this is a part of Google Maps, Waze, Uber, or Lyft, some extremely popular app on our phones is doing location and activity monitoring no one was aware of. It's especially frightening because this data could be used to deny people reasonable insurance rates in the future and they weren't even aware they were being logged. I'm curious how they know a person is definitely driving and not a passenger.
- lostphilosopher 7y ago
  My wife and I have different phones and have consistently found the map experience better on mine. When we travel I drive and she uses my phone to navigate...
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    It would be easy to cross-correlate this sort of relationship. (The passenger seat navigator.)
- jlarocco 7y ago
  > It's especially frightening because this data could be used to deny people reasonable insurance rates in the future and they weren't even aware they were being logged. More expensive insurance is getting off easy. After getting caught two or three times people should lose their license over it, IMO. It's as dangerous as drunk driving. That said, it is concerning how they're collecting this information.
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    Does the state of California believe that people have "a reasonable expectation of privacy" inside their cars while driving on the road?
    - jlarocco 7y ago
      No idea, I don't live in California.
kbrosnan 7y ago
I believe that this is the same app I encountered on my mother's phone. She got it from Verizon and got a discount on either mobile service or the phone. It has a bluetooth dongle that plugs into the cars OBDII port. I tried talking to her about the privacy implications though I don't think I got through to her. From what I could see the app was slurping the location of the phone all the time, even outside the car.
- Cymen 7y ago
  That sounds more like the car insurance schemes to give a discount by sharing your data. Are you sure she didn't opt into that? Just curious as first I've heard of such a thing outside of auto insurance.
  - kbrosnan 7y ago
    It was through Verizon. The insurance does not offer such a discount in their traditional offerings. https://www.amica.com/en/products/auto-insurance/discounts.html https://www.amica.com/en/products/auto-insurance/discounts.h... you need to get Amica Flexmile to have ODBII data collection.
incompatible 7y ago
I suppose the safest method would be to switch off a phone, or switch it to airplane mode, while driving. Would a requirement to use such an app while driving prevent that approach?
- gnicholas 7y ago
  What if you're using it to navigate?
  - OrgNet 7y ago
    You can use an app like Offline Maps & Navigation that doesn't require the internet (after downloading the required maps)... and I think that Google Maps allows you to bring navigation instructions offline.
    - gnicholas 7y ago
      Sure, that's possible. But that means foregoing traffic alerts and redirections. And it means you can't share your location with other people so they can track your progress. I do this on long trips so the people I'm driving to can see where I am without having to contact/disturb me.
      - incompatible 7y ago
        Sure if you want to use online navigation / tracking you'd need to have it switched on. In many other cases, this wouldn't be necessary.
      - OrgNet 7y ago
        Sure there are trade-offs, but anyways, I guess this app could be recording all the tracking data onto internal memory until you switch airplane mode back off and then transfer it to the insurance company.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  Airplane mode does not disable GPS, nor any of the other sensors. The data can be queued locally, then uploaded when connectivity is available.
loeg 7y ago
It seems like another good follow-up question might be: how do we know zendrive's characterization of phone-use-while-driving is accurate and represents danger? E.g., how does the thing know if you're driving or simply a passenger (especially on mass transit, like a bus)? And even if you are the driver, checking your phone at a light is probably not especially unsafe (though it could be rude or illegal). Finally, audio output app use like Maps or Spotify that doesn't require input is probably acceptable. So without knowing more about the methodology, the conclusions of the article don't logically follow.
southerntofu 7y ago
This is not surprising at all to people involved in the battle for privacy. Most software we run on desktop/smartphones is riddled with spyware and other "analytics" tools. Don't trust me? Check out the Exodus Privacy project which runs static analysis on compiled APKs to find out about trackers (so yes some tracking tools can make it through Exodus detection): https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/search/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/search/ You would be surprised just how many of your favorite apps spy on you! But what's more worrying to me is this trend of phone operators and constructors customizing their Android builds to fill them with malware. Samsung/HTC/Huawei/Sony... they all do it with the excuse of giving you a cooler GUI. But what's even more worrying is Google and Apple's total control over 90% of smartphones. On Android, Google spyware is prepackaged with every smartphone as "Google Play Services", but these "services" are designed to spy on users and let Google remote-control your phone: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45546276 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45546276 So running a free-software stack on our phones is really the only option to avoid mass-collection of our private data. Phone operator can still log our calls/texts but not much more. So to recap: most people use a phone with Google Spyware, bundled with Samsung/Huawei spyware, to use apps that come bundled with even more spyware. We deserve a better life.

by sib 8y ago

jolmg 8y ago

It seems like Zendrive is something you can integrate on your apps. Their target market seems to be companies that have fleets to manage, like Uber or DHL. From Zendrive's FAQ page[1]: > How does it work? > Zendrive measures driver safety using only phone sensors. Integrate the Zendrive SDK into your driver app, and we’ll measure your drivers’ Caution, Control, and Focus while on the road, as well as detect collisions. This is done by measuring a wide variety of safety factors, like speeding, hard brakes, sharp accelerations, phone use, swerving, length of time driving, time of day, and many many more. > Who’s it for? How are people using this? > We built Zendrive for any On Demand company with a growing fleet, to help them manage their growth. With in-depth analysis showing any particular driver’s safety, or fleet-wide safety, it gives fleet managers the tools they need to improve their fleet’s driving to ensure safety, reduce risk and liability, and increase savings. > Since launch we’ve found additional types of companies getting value from Zendrive, from fleet management platform companies, to activity tracking companies and expense tracking companies who use the driving detection in the technology, to hardware companies looking for new safety features. [1] https://www.zendrive.com/faq/ https://www.zendrive.com/faq/

blocke 8y ago
Let's not pretend this is a full list. It's just a list of example apps. "Hardware companies" Does that mean bundled by carriers and crappy Android phones? Lovely.
- jolmg 8y ago
  Well, I doubt they'll reject clients based on the use they intend to give to their product, but I can't really fault them for that. It seems like a legitimate business. Hardly unethical.
  - gbrown 8y ago
    Perhaps we could imagine better privacy laws. The fact that something is legal, and a legitimate business, doesn't mean that it's good or should be allowed.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - mixmastamyk 7y ago
      Without explicit permission given.
    - chrismeller 7y ago
      Most (all?) of their examples in the FAQ are related to corporate drivers, not individuals. Something like Uber would be a bit of a gray area since you use your own vehicle, but all the others are more like DHL and FedEx, where you're driving a company-provided vehicle and there should be no expectation of privacy in regards to how you operate that vehicle.
      - gbrown 7y ago
        Those are the examples given, but that wouldn't explain the huge numbers claimed elsewhere - nearly a quarter of phones in the US. Pardon me for not assuming that a data gathering corporation has my best interests at heart.
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope This was legit, too.

username223 8y ago

I immediately wondered that as well. In the best case, insurers are giving people a discount to install an app, like health insurers handing out connected fitness monitors. That's creepy, but only mildly so by today's standards. However, I recently renewed my car insurance with a popular company, and they didn't ask me to install an app, so that seems unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if it were silently bundled into a bunch of apps that have location access and run in the background. It gives insurers vaguely-useful data, but mostly exists to hoover up sweet, sweet location data. EDIT: See below[1,2]. It's the extra-creepy version. [1] https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-ride-hailing-safety-20160526-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-ride-ha... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19780361 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19780361

noworld 8y ago

This is the closest the article comes to answering that: > The reason for all this data is that at least one in five U.S. auto insurance policies now offers a potential discount if the customer consents to a vehicle monitor. But I would also like some kind of affirmation that the software isn't being backdoored onto everyone's phones.

blacksmith_tb 7y ago
I thought those were typically GPS loggers that were powered by (and pulled data from) the OBDII port[1]? An app-based alternative could have some of the same info, though presumably less accurate acceleration and braking data. 1: https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/how-do-those-car-insurance-tracking-devices-work https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/car-insurance/how-do-tho...

fmajid 8y ago

The founder is an ex-Facebook guy. Of course it is going to ride roughshod over privacy.

redwards510 8y ago

Indeed! Unless this is a part of Google Maps, Waze, Uber, or Lyft, some extremely popular app on our phones is doing location and activity monitoring no one was aware of. It's especially frightening because this data could be used to deny people reasonable insurance rates in the future and they weren't even aware they were being logged. I'm curious how they know a person is definitely driving and not a passenger.

lostphilosopher 7y ago
My wife and I have different phones and have consistently found the map experience better on mine. When we travel I drive and she uses my phone to navigate...
- stcredzero 7y ago
  It would be easy to cross-correlate this sort of relationship. (The passenger seat navigator.)
jlarocco 7y ago
> It's especially frightening because this data could be used to deny people reasonable insurance rates in the future and they weren't even aware they were being logged. More expensive insurance is getting off easy. After getting caught two or three times people should lose their license over it, IMO. It's as dangerous as drunk driving. That said, it is concerning how they're collecting this information.
- stcredzero 7y ago
  Does the state of California believe that people have "a reasonable expectation of privacy" inside their cars while driving on the road?
  - jlarocco 7y ago
    No idea, I don't live in California.

kbrosnan 7y ago

I believe that this is the same app I encountered on my mother's phone. She got it from Verizon and got a discount on either mobile service or the phone. It has a bluetooth dongle that plugs into the cars OBDII port. I tried talking to her about the privacy implications though I don't think I got through to her. From what I could see the app was slurping the location of the phone all the time, even outside the car.

Cymen 7y ago
That sounds more like the car insurance schemes to give a discount by sharing your data. Are you sure she didn't opt into that? Just curious as first I've heard of such a thing outside of auto insurance.
- kbrosnan 7y ago
  It was through Verizon. The insurance does not offer such a discount in their traditional offerings. https://www.amica.com/en/products/auto-insurance/discounts.html https://www.amica.com/en/products/auto-insurance/discounts.h... you need to get Amica Flexmile to have ODBII data collection.

incompatible 7y ago

I suppose the safest method would be to switch off a phone, or switch it to airplane mode, while driving. Would a requirement to use such an app while driving prevent that approach?

gnicholas 7y ago
What if you're using it to navigate?
- OrgNet 7y ago
  You can use an app like Offline Maps & Navigation that doesn't require the internet (after downloading the required maps)... and I think that Google Maps allows you to bring navigation instructions offline.
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    Sure, that's possible. But that means foregoing traffic alerts and redirections. And it means you can't share your location with other people so they can track your progress. I do this on long trips so the people I'm driving to can see where I am without having to contact/disturb me.
    - incompatible 7y ago
      Sure if you want to use online navigation / tracking you'd need to have it switched on. In many other cases, this wouldn't be necessary.
    - OrgNet 7y ago
      Sure there are trade-offs, but anyways, I guess this app could be recording all the tracking data onto internal memory until you switch airplane mode back off and then transfer it to the insurance company.
dillonmckay 7y ago
Airplane mode does not disable GPS, nor any of the other sensors. The data can be queued locally, then uploaded when connectivity is available.

loeg 7y ago

It seems like another good follow-up question might be: how do we know zendrive's characterization of phone-use-while-driving is accurate and represents danger? E.g., how does the thing know if you're driving or simply a passenger (especially on mass transit, like a bus)? And even if you are the driver, checking your phone at a light is probably not especially unsafe (though it could be rude or illegal). Finally, audio output app use like Maps or Spotify that doesn't require input is probably acceptable. So without knowing more about the methodology, the conclusions of the article don't logically follow.

southerntofu 7y ago

This is not surprising at all to people involved in the battle for privacy. Most software we run on desktop/smartphones is riddled with spyware and other "analytics" tools. Don't trust me? Check out the Exodus Privacy project which runs static analysis on compiled APKs to find out about trackers (so yes some tracking tools can make it through Exodus detection): https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/search/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/search/ You would be surprised just how many of your favorite apps spy on you! But what's more worrying to me is this trend of phone operators and constructors customizing their Android builds to fill them with malware. Samsung/HTC/Huawei/Sony... they all do it with the excuse of giving you a cooler GUI. But what's even more worrying is Google and Apple's total control over 90% of smartphones. On Android, Google spyware is prepackaged with every smartphone as "Google Play Services", but these "services" are designed to spy on users and let Google remote-control your phone: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45546276 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45546276 So running a free-software stack on our phones is really the only option to avoid mass-collection of our private data. Phone operator can still log our calls/texts but not much more. So to recap: most people use a phone with Google Spyware, bundled with Samsung/Huawei spyware, to use apps that come bundled with even more spyware. We deserve a better life.