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> I say this as a bike commuter who sees phones being used at stoplights every day Why is this a problem? I don't mess with my phone while I'm driving, but if

> I say this as a bike commuter who sees phones being used at stoplights every day Why is this a problem? I don't mess with my phone while I'm driving, but if I'm sitting at a light for a minute or two, I'll take a peek if, say, a text message came in while I was moving, just to make sure it isn't something important from my wife or daughter.

rootusrootus 8y ago
Well, when I'm behind someone fiddling with their phone and it takes them an extra five seconds to start moving (and only because I beeped my horn to prompt them to look up), I think it's a problem. We're all trying to get to our destinations safely and quickly. This means traffic has to flow, or we all sit around longer getting more aggravated about it.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  This is a fair sentiment, but I'm much more concerned about the safety implications than the inconvenience caused by a five second delay. The same delay can come from lots of legitimate sources— weather conditions, road work, delaying passing a cyclist because there isn't room to give the full meter, stopping for a schoolbus, whatever. When we're in a mindset that the smallest delay is intolerable, it becomes harder to be patient in the cases where slowing your vehicle is actually the safer choice (which, of course, is most of them).
- Noumenon72 8y ago
  I feel that this problem is self-correcting, since you will get beeped at every time (reliable negative reinforcement) and no one actually wants to sit at a green light, so there's no selfish incentive involved.
- loeg 8y ago
  Inconvenience isn't good, but it's a distant second fiddle to safety.
rconti 8y ago
I do the same, but please think of the people behind you. If you ever fail to react to traffic in front of you going immediately, you have just wasted several minutes of the lives of everyone behind you, as far back as the backup goes (for example at a traffic light). I'm EXTREMELY diligent, but some folks apparently have no concern for others.
- abacadaba 8y ago
  Ah so you're the asshole that's always honking at me
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    when you're driving a car, job one is driving the car. how is he the asshole for reminding you that the light is green?
    - seandougall 8y ago
      Horns are safety features. They are meant for avoiding an accident, not for venting frustration. Here in California at least, using your horn because you’re feeling impatient at a green light is illegal. (Granted, so is using your phone while stopped in traffic, but that doesn’t make you in the right for honking.)
      - leetcrew 8y ago
        not a californian, so I can't speak to the laws there, but I don't see anything wrong with a quick tap on the horn to let the person know they missed the light change. in my view, this is communication, not mere venting. I would never give someone the full blast unless they were actively doing something unsafe. that said, people expect to go when the light turns green. violating people's expectations as always at least a little dangerous on the road. they should know better, but they don't.
        4ntonius8lock 8y ago
3JPLW 8y ago
While I believe that is technically illegal in many jurisdictions, I agree a quick peek is fine. What I routinely see, though, is folks with their heads solidly down and noses buried in their phone. Just in the past week I've seen two folks _watching video_ on their phones while I was bike commuting. This is terrifying. And sure, not everyone peeking at their phones at full stops will also be looking while they're moving. But folks who look at their phones while moving will definitely be looking at full stops, too.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  Long before the iphone, I'd occasionally see a driver on the freeway reading a newspaper draped over the steering wheel.
  - souprock 8y ago
    Yep, that is an unjustified risk. On the other hand, people would also hold a map draped over the steering wheel or beside them. That relates directly to the operation of the vehicle and is in fact needed to operate the vehicle, so it is justified. The same distinction should apply with phones. Browsing the news and playing games is not OK. The risk is unjustified because it is not necessary to operate the vehicle. Running a map program is justified. The alternative would be something awful, such as parking right on the freeway to look for directions.
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      It also depends on how you're operating the phone for necessary operation. Looking at your phone propped in front of you on a windshield or dash-mounted holder is fine. Looking down at your phone in the center cupholder while still driving is not fine, and I've had the unfortunate experience of almost being in accidents because the rideshare driver is doing something that dangerous.
- steveax 8y ago
  For a while due to a bike trail closure, I pedaled across the Sellwood bridge. Because reasons, I took the south sidewalk and had a great view of oncoming eastbound drivers. I saw many drivers holding/operating their phones, by my limited data it was around 1 in 10. Terrifying.
mikepurvis 8y ago
Maybe "take a peek" works for you, but it doesn't for most people. Most people's "peek" becomes "dash off a quick reply" and then "hang on let me fix that typo", "oops green light, let me just stab the send button while I start rolling forward", and "shoot I exited the app without sending now I'm in moving traffic and full on using my phone."
- loeg 8y ago
  You're making a broad characterization. I suspect it is not backed by evidence.
  - crottypeter 8y ago
    I suspect it is backed by experience.
    - loeg 8y ago
      Personal anecdotes and confirmation bias isn't data.
Jtsummers 8y ago
I was nearly hit by the driver behind me moving forward when the vehicle next to them moved forward and they lurched forward with them. They were looking at their phone, I'd guess they saw the neighbor moving and thought it was a green light and time to go. Fortunately they had enough space and hit their brakes in time. I've become cautious about taking my foot off the brakes for the same reason. Even when it's safe for me to start rolling, I don't trust them to not hit their accelerator when they're on the phone and notice my vehicle moving away from them. A peek is probably safe enough, but using a phone is not.
- 3JPLW 8y ago
  I was bumped by a car behind me in the exact same situation. I looked in my rearview mirror and immediately saw the cell phone in her hand. What made this particularly amusing was when we got out of our cars to assess any potential damage, I realized the woman only had one arm. Fortunately there was no damage — especially since I was in a rental car and wasn't looking forward to the insurance rigamarole. I am now similarly cautious about such "false starts" — I try not to start rolling until I think I'll be able to continue smoothly accelerating to normal speeds.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  If your answer to "Why is it bad to use a phone when stopped?" is "Some drivers use phones while moving, causing accidents.", then that's not a very strong argument.
  - Jtsummers 8y ago
    See the article yesterday about normalization of deviance. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19770562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19770562
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      That could be relevant if you put both actions on the same continuum. But in that case allowing the phone in the car at all is also on the same continuum. Wanna ban that?
macintux 8y ago
My thoughts on this. https://oppositelock.kinja.com/ruminations-on-stoplights-and-smartphones-1829700735 https://oppositelock.kinja.com/ruminations-on-stoplights-and...
megy 8y ago
If you can't wait, and put away easy to dodge distractions, you should not be driving. For most people, driving is the single most dangerous thing you will do today, with the highest risk of you causing death.
flukus 8y ago
> Why is this a problem? I don't mess with my phone while I'm driving, but if I'm sitting at a light for a minute or two, I'll take a peek if, say, a text message came in while I was moving, just to make sure it isn't something important from my wife or daughter. Because you have things to concentrate on while stopped at the lights. Has that pedestrian crossing the road made it across or are they about to step out in front of you? Did you notice the cyclist overtaking on the inside that is now in your blind spot? Is the intersection in front of you clear or are you about to cause gridlock? Not killing people is far more important than whatever message your wife or daughter sent, if that was truly important I'm sure you've got time to pull over.
- loeg 8y ago
  If these folks aren't directly in front of your vehicle or running deep reds, you aren't going to collide with them when you have a green light and travel forwards. If you lane change, you need to do it outside of intersections and check your mirror / blind spot, like always.
  - flukus 8y ago
    If the car in front is 50cm further from the gutter then a cyclist can easily be in a blind spot that's directly in front of your vehicle, especially a higher and less transparent vehicle like a delivery van. If that van is 50cm in front of you then you can easily miss someone still crossing the road, like an elderly person that can't walk fast enough, if you were paying attention you have a much higher chance of being aware of them. If you aren't willing to be attentive then you shouldn't be trusted to operate heavy machinery.
    - loeg 8y ago
      If you have a tall vehicle with a front blind spot, then of course. I didn't think that was the general topic of the conversation so I didn't cover that. Passenger cars typically don't have front blindspots large enough to hide a person standing.
  - 4ntonius8lock 8y ago
crottypeter 8y ago
> Why is this a problem? Because when the light goes green zombie drivers looking at their phone move forward without checking that it is safe to do so. You need to be aware of your surroundings ... including the (motor)bike who has just carefully manoeuvred his/her handlebar past your wing mirror, so you don't punt them into the ground. This is why we have laws, tests, licences!

rootusrootus 8y ago

Well, when I'm behind someone fiddling with their phone and it takes them an extra five seconds to start moving (and only because I beeped my horn to prompt them to look up), I think it's a problem. We're all trying to get to our destinations safely and quickly. This means traffic has to flow, or we all sit around longer getting more aggravated about it.

mikepurvis 8y ago
This is a fair sentiment, but I'm much more concerned about the safety implications than the inconvenience caused by a five second delay. The same delay can come from lots of legitimate sources— weather conditions, road work, delaying passing a cyclist because there isn't room to give the full meter, stopping for a schoolbus, whatever. When we're in a mindset that the smallest delay is intolerable, it becomes harder to be patient in the cases where slowing your vehicle is actually the safer choice (which, of course, is most of them).
Noumenon72 8y ago
I feel that this problem is self-correcting, since you will get beeped at every time (reliable negative reinforcement) and no one actually wants to sit at a green light, so there's no selfish incentive involved.
loeg 8y ago
Inconvenience isn't good, but it's a distant second fiddle to safety.

rconti 8y ago

I do the same, but please think of the people behind you. If you ever fail to react to traffic in front of you going immediately, you have just wasted several minutes of the lives of everyone behind you, as far back as the backup goes (for example at a traffic light). I'm EXTREMELY diligent, but some folks apparently have no concern for others.

abacadaba 8y ago
Ah so you're the asshole that's always honking at me
- leetcrew 8y ago
  when you're driving a car, job one is driving the car. how is he the asshole for reminding you that the light is green?
  - seandougall 8y ago
    Horns are safety features. They are meant for avoiding an accident, not for venting frustration. Here in California at least, using your horn because you’re feeling impatient at a green light is illegal. (Granted, so is using your phone while stopped in traffic, but that doesn’t make you in the right for honking.)
    - leetcrew 8y ago
      not a californian, so I can't speak to the laws there, but I don't see anything wrong with a quick tap on the horn to let the person know they missed the light change. in my view, this is communication, not mere venting. I would never give someone the full blast unless they were actively doing something unsafe. that said, people expect to go when the light turns green. violating people's expectations as always at least a little dangerous on the road. they should know better, but they don't.
      - 4ntonius8lock 8y ago

3JPLW 8y ago

While I believe that is technically illegal in many jurisdictions, I agree a quick peek is fine. What I routinely see, though, is folks with their heads solidly down and noses buried in their phone. Just in the past week I've seen two folks _watching video_ on their phones while I was bike commuting. This is terrifying. And sure, not everyone peeking at their phones at full stops will also be looking while they're moving. But folks who look at their phones while moving will definitely be looking at full stops, too.

skookumchuck 8y ago
Long before the iphone, I'd occasionally see a driver on the freeway reading a newspaper draped over the steering wheel.
- souprock 8y ago
  Yep, that is an unjustified risk. On the other hand, people would also hold a map draped over the steering wheel or beside them. That relates directly to the operation of the vehicle and is in fact needed to operate the vehicle, so it is justified. The same distinction should apply with phones. Browsing the news and playing games is not OK. The risk is unjustified because it is not necessary to operate the vehicle. Running a map program is justified. The alternative would be something awful, such as parking right on the freeway to look for directions.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    It also depends on how you're operating the phone for necessary operation. Looking at your phone propped in front of you on a windshield or dash-mounted holder is fine. Looking down at your phone in the center cupholder while still driving is not fine, and I've had the unfortunate experience of almost being in accidents because the rideshare driver is doing something that dangerous.
steveax 8y ago
For a while due to a bike trail closure, I pedaled across the Sellwood bridge. Because reasons, I took the south sidewalk and had a great view of oncoming eastbound drivers. I saw many drivers holding/operating their phones, by my limited data it was around 1 in 10. Terrifying.

mikepurvis 8y ago

Maybe "take a peek" works for you, but it doesn't for most people. Most people's "peek" becomes "dash off a quick reply" and then "hang on let me fix that typo", "oops green light, let me just stab the send button while I start rolling forward", and "shoot I exited the app without sending now I'm in moving traffic and full on using my phone."

loeg 8y ago
You're making a broad characterization. I suspect it is not backed by evidence.
- crottypeter 8y ago
  I suspect it is backed by experience.
  - loeg 8y ago
    Personal anecdotes and confirmation bias isn't data.

Jtsummers 8y ago

I was nearly hit by the driver behind me moving forward when the vehicle next to them moved forward and they lurched forward with them. They were looking at their phone, I'd guess they saw the neighbor moving and thought it was a green light and time to go. Fortunately they had enough space and hit their brakes in time. I've become cautious about taking my foot off the brakes for the same reason. Even when it's safe for me to start rolling, I don't trust them to not hit their accelerator when they're on the phone and notice my vehicle moving away from them. A peek is probably safe enough, but using a phone is not.

3JPLW 8y ago
I was bumped by a car behind me in the exact same situation. I looked in my rearview mirror and immediately saw the cell phone in her hand. What made this particularly amusing was when we got out of our cars to assess any potential damage, I realized the woman only had one arm. Fortunately there was no damage — especially since I was in a rental car and wasn't looking forward to the insurance rigamarole. I am now similarly cautious about such "false starts" — I try not to start rolling until I think I'll be able to continue smoothly accelerating to normal speeds.
Dylan16807 8y ago
If your answer to "Why is it bad to use a phone when stopped?" is "Some drivers use phones while moving, causing accidents.", then that's not a very strong argument.
- Jtsummers 8y ago
  See the article yesterday about normalization of deviance. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19770562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19770562
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    That could be relevant if you put both actions on the same continuum. But in that case allowing the phone in the car at all is also on the same continuum. Wanna ban that?

macintux 8y ago

My thoughts on this. https://oppositelock.kinja.com/ruminations-on-stoplights-and-smartphones-1829700735 https://oppositelock.kinja.com/ruminations-on-stoplights-and...

megy 8y ago

If you can't wait, and put away easy to dodge distractions, you should not be driving. For most people, driving is the single most dangerous thing you will do today, with the highest risk of you causing death.

flukus 8y ago

> Why is this a problem? I don't mess with my phone while I'm driving, but if I'm sitting at a light for a minute or two, I'll take a peek if, say, a text message came in while I was moving, just to make sure it isn't something important from my wife or daughter. Because you have things to concentrate on while stopped at the lights. Has that pedestrian crossing the road made it across or are they about to step out in front of you? Did you notice the cyclist overtaking on the inside that is now in your blind spot? Is the intersection in front of you clear or are you about to cause gridlock? Not killing people is far more important than whatever message your wife or daughter sent, if that was truly important I'm sure you've got time to pull over.

loeg 8y ago
If these folks aren't directly in front of your vehicle or running deep reds, you aren't going to collide with them when you have a green light and travel forwards. If you lane change, you need to do it outside of intersections and check your mirror / blind spot, like always.
- flukus 8y ago
  If the car in front is 50cm further from the gutter then a cyclist can easily be in a blind spot that's directly in front of your vehicle, especially a higher and less transparent vehicle like a delivery van. If that van is 50cm in front of you then you can easily miss someone still crossing the road, like an elderly person that can't walk fast enough, if you were paying attention you have a much higher chance of being aware of them. If you aren't willing to be attentive then you shouldn't be trusted to operate heavy machinery.
  - loeg 8y ago
    If you have a tall vehicle with a front blind spot, then of course. I didn't think that was the general topic of the conversation so I didn't cover that. Passenger cars typically don't have front blindspots large enough to hide a person standing.
- 4ntonius8lock 8y ago

crottypeter 8y ago

> Why is this a problem? Because when the light goes green zombie drivers looking at their phone move forward without checking that it is safe to do so. You need to be aware of your surroundings ... including the (motor)bike who has just carefully manoeuvred his/her handlebar past your wing mirror, so you don't punt them into the ground. This is why we have laws, tests, licences!