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I fail to comprehend your objection. The licensing terms are what is at dispute here and not the technical merits of the language or the JVM platform. These we

I fail to comprehend your objection. The licensing terms are what is at dispute here and not the technical merits of the language or the JVM platform. These were the same terms ( more or less ) when you downloaded the first JDK. Apache and Google are disputing the licensing terms . Oracle has nowhere said Java is only for paying customers. Just chillax !!!

kls 16y ago
"Oracle has nowhere said Java is only for paying customers" They killed OpenSSO, they killed Open Office, the killed Open Solaris, They where contractually bound to not kill MySQL so they just raised the price through the roof to send the message. Pretty much they killed anything that you did not have to pay for. The worst part is they did not just withdraw paid positions from working on it. They alienated the volunteer members of the community until they resigned in protest. Sun agreed to license the TCK to Apache under non-discriminatory terms an Agreement that Oracle is not, has not and will not living up to, because they don't want JDKs to exist that did not pay Oracle or more importantly they want them to licence it under the restrictive provising that they require e.g no use on servers and no use on Mobile. How many more items do they have to destroy until people start seeing the serial and systematic behavior that is going on. do you not find it funny that Apple gave the JVM back to Oracle and Oracle is doing everything in it's power to keep non-sanctioned VM's off of Mobile devices. That is what the Apache dispute is really about, Oracle does not want a non-oracle JVM in the mobile world and I can bet you dime to dollar that it has to do with a back room deal between Oracle and Apple. Why do they want to keep the non-sanctioned JVM's off of Mobile devices, well because a closed ecosystem is more lucrative for Apple and Oracle than one in which Apache and Google are giving stuff away for free. There is a fundamental difference in world views between Apple / Oracle and Google / Apache. Apple and Oracle are vertical stack providers they want to provide the whole stack soup to nuts and don't want anyone playing in their ecosystem, it just so happens that Apple wants the consumer market and Oracle wants the Enterprise market so they make good bed fellows. They are about the only two tech companies left that are not at war with each other. Google and Apache represent a threat to their world vision and they have declared war to stop them. Oracle is all about every piece of their vertical being a piece that is monetized you can rest assured that Java is no exception. Like it or not Java and the JVM are pawns in a big game of who is going to own the mobile market. It is the future market and winner takes all, if Oracle backs Apple in wining the market, then Apple can ensure that Oracle is position to be the Enterprise infrastructure for the new Mobile market. Like it or not, Java is a sacrificial pawn in a bigger game now. The developer in me does not care, quite honestly the return to verticals means the return to easy money for writing software for verticals but the consumer in me shudders at the though of the verticals winning. You think Apples platform is restrictive, now wait until they own 90% of the market. They will make the early 90's Microsoft look like a benevolent democracy and well Oracle will just become a technical tax to anyone wanting to do business.
- badmash69 16y ago
  I am not defending Oracle. My point is that regardless of the jockeying in the mobile world, Java language and the JDK which you and I both use has no threat to its future. There are no technical issues that jeopardize the Java language's future or the JVM's future. Oracle understand the significance of the Java developer community. Sure it would have been nice to have Harmony but I am able to live with openJDK. Remember, IBM and Apple are both supporting OpenJDK -- Oracle is not the sole custodian of Java. There is no impact to JDK and JRE on servers ( which is where I suspect most of us Java programmers make our bread and butter). Sure the Mobile platform is being contested -- but so what ? Businesses always jockey for position .
  - kls 16y ago
    Yes there is some validity to what you are saying, for a while we can go on as if nothing is wrong. The problem is that Oracle has a track record of trying to monetize anything that has significant leverage. Look what they just did with mySQL, pretty much doubled the prices. I fear that more and more items will become additional paid features as time goes on.
  - bad_user 16y ago
    > Oracle understand the significance of the Java developer community. Really? How, where, when?
  - Swannie 16y ago
    The value of the Java community, for Oracle, is measured by those that are paid to develop Java for licensed (or sold) software products. If you don't to that then you don't get counted. "IBM and Apple are both supporting OpenJDK -- Oracle is not the sole custodian of Java" Whilst technically correct, they appear to be holding the TCK and patents as viable weapons in the battle for control.
- cabalamat 16y ago
  > Sun agreed to license the TCK to Apache under non-discriminatory terms an Agreement that Oracle is not, has not and will not living up to If Oracle is in breach of an agreement, can Apache take them to court of force them to comply? Alternately, are there any legal obstacles preventing Apache from writing their own TCK and saying in future they'll develop against that?

kls 16y ago

"Oracle has nowhere said Java is only for paying customers" They killed OpenSSO, they killed Open Office, the killed Open Solaris, They where contractually bound to not kill MySQL so they just raised the price through the roof to send the message. Pretty much they killed anything that you did not have to pay for. The worst part is they did not just withdraw paid positions from working on it. They alienated the volunteer members of the community until they resigned in protest. Sun agreed to license the TCK to Apache under non-discriminatory terms an Agreement that Oracle is not, has not and will not living up to, because they don't want JDKs to exist that did not pay Oracle or more importantly they want them to licence it under the restrictive provising that they require e.g no use on servers and no use on Mobile. How many more items do they have to destroy until people start seeing the serial and systematic behavior that is going on. do you not find it funny that Apple gave the JVM back to Oracle and Oracle is doing everything in it's power to keep non-sanctioned VM's off of Mobile devices. That is what the Apache dispute is really about, Oracle does not want a non-oracle JVM in the mobile world and I can bet you dime to dollar that it has to do with a back room deal between Oracle and Apple. Why do they want to keep the non-sanctioned JVM's off of Mobile devices, well because a closed ecosystem is more lucrative for Apple and Oracle than one in which Apache and Google are giving stuff away for free. There is a fundamental difference in world views between Apple / Oracle and Google / Apache. Apple and Oracle are vertical stack providers they want to provide the whole stack soup to nuts and don't want anyone playing in their ecosystem, it just so happens that Apple wants the consumer market and Oracle wants the Enterprise market so they make good bed fellows. They are about the only two tech companies left that are not at war with each other. Google and Apache represent a threat to their world vision and they have declared war to stop them. Oracle is all about every piece of their vertical being a piece that is monetized you can rest assured that Java is no exception. Like it or not Java and the JVM are pawns in a big game of who is going to own the mobile market. It is the future market and winner takes all, if Oracle backs Apple in wining the market, then Apple can ensure that Oracle is position to be the Enterprise infrastructure for the new Mobile market. Like it or not, Java is a sacrificial pawn in a bigger game now. The developer in me does not care, quite honestly the return to verticals means the return to easy money for writing software for verticals but the consumer in me shudders at the though of the verticals winning. You think Apples platform is restrictive, now wait until they own 90% of the market. They will make the early 90's Microsoft look like a benevolent democracy and well Oracle will just become a technical tax to anyone wanting to do business.

badmash69 16y ago
I am not defending Oracle. My point is that regardless of the jockeying in the mobile world, Java language and the JDK which you and I both use has no threat to its future. There are no technical issues that jeopardize the Java language's future or the JVM's future. Oracle understand the significance of the Java developer community. Sure it would have been nice to have Harmony but I am able to live with openJDK. Remember, IBM and Apple are both supporting OpenJDK -- Oracle is not the sole custodian of Java. There is no impact to JDK and JRE on servers ( which is where I suspect most of us Java programmers make our bread and butter). Sure the Mobile platform is being contested -- but so what ? Businesses always jockey for position .
- kls 16y ago
  Yes there is some validity to what you are saying, for a while we can go on as if nothing is wrong. The problem is that Oracle has a track record of trying to monetize anything that has significant leverage. Look what they just did with mySQL, pretty much doubled the prices. I fear that more and more items will become additional paid features as time goes on.
- bad_user 16y ago
  > Oracle understand the significance of the Java developer community. Really? How, where, when?
- Swannie 16y ago
  The value of the Java community, for Oracle, is measured by those that are paid to develop Java for licensed (or sold) software products. If you don't to that then you don't get counted. "IBM and Apple are both supporting OpenJDK -- Oracle is not the sole custodian of Java" Whilst technically correct, they appear to be holding the TCK and patents as viable weapons in the battle for control.
cabalamat 16y ago
> Sun agreed to license the TCK to Apache under non-discriminatory terms an Agreement that Oracle is not, has not and will not living up to If Oracle is in breach of an agreement, can Apache take them to court of force them to comply? Alternately, are there any legal obstacles preventing Apache from writing their own TCK and saying in future they'll develop against that?