6 ms·

>But if you're saying that you have become the arbiter of what causes harm or not, you are taking on yourself something that you have no right to do, whether yo

by alex_c 16y ago

>But if you're saying that you have become the arbiter of what causes harm or not, you are taking on yourself something that you have no right to do, whether you're alex or some WL guy. >Does that make sense? More than you may think. I'm Canadian. The US routinely makes decisions that affect me but that I have no say in. Now, I want to be very careful here, because I don't want to frame this as "the big bad US got some egg on their face, serves them right" - it's very easy to think this is about the US (and, well, in a literal sense it obviously is), but it's really not. What nationality is WikiLeaks? Think about that for a second. To what extent would you support retaliations against an American member of WikiLeaks by, say, the UK or German government? Here's the fundamental difference between how we're looking at it. As a citizen of country X, Y, or Z, you have every right to be pissed if an external party leaks some of your country's secrets to another country. If, however, you think that technology from the last 20 years has set us on an inevitable path to an interconnected world, then that changes things. Your vote as a US citizen affects me, although I have no say in it. My vote as a Canadian citizen affects people in other countries. And we're no longer talking about geopolitical stuff like wars or foreign aid, we're talking about everyday stuff like how my computer works. To what extent should I support your specific government's secrets? Here, a perfect example: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5504/125/ http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5504/125/ Maybe "less secrets" IS the answer, and maybe governments will never arrive at that answer on their own. I don't know. I do know the picture gets a lot more complicated when you look at it on the global level, and not just one country.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago
Thought experiment: pick a foreign country that most people think is really screwed up. Let's pick Saudi Arabia, but you can pick any country. I hate the way SA does things. I hate the fact that they support terrorist. I hate the fact they oppress their women. I hate the fact that they oppress their people. I hate the fact they bleed us with oil money (continue on ad infinitum, or until you get a good head of steam worked up over how bad country X is) Now. I come across a big pile of documents from Saudi Arabia. All of their secret documents. All of the details of all the bad things they've done. All of the little evils. But also some good things. Some things that might hurt people (or not). And some things that I have no idea the importance of (probably the biggest hunk, really). We're back to the 3 choices again. I can give it all to my own government. I can choose a particular injustice and release documents in support of that (and be willing to accept the consequences) or I can dump them all on the web and effectively declare my own little personal war on Saudi Arabia. Option 3 is incredible because it didn't exist before. Sure, it used to be done -- there was a big dump of secret documents before WWI that partially led to the instability that caused the war -- but not by a single person. In this case I'd pick option 1 and be very happy about it. But I could also support somebody picking option 2. This is a personal decision. Option 3 is a non-starter with me. It is wrong under any circumstances. That help clear it up? You guys are so starry-eyed by the new existence of option 3 that you think it's going to solve all these huge problems. I'm telling you all it's going to do is cause somebody with a really big stick to come over and hit you on the head. And then we all suffer because a few guys thought bittorrent and aes could save the universe.
- panarky 16y ago
  I like this thought experiment. Let's try some speculative fiction to reflect the power dynamics a little better. In my alternate universe, the Soviet Union won the cold war and the United States collapsed. The former USA splintered into several regional nations. The European Union has been absorbed into the Soviet bloc, which now includes all of Western Europe and the Mediterranean. The Eastern Seaboard of North America from Newfoundland to Florida joined the Soviet bloc and the leaders of these nations are loyal to the Kremlin. The West Coast of North America from British Columbia through Baja California has deep military and economic integration with China, and is now subject to censorship and social controls dictated from Beijing. Saskatchewan through Texas and Mexico is now a loose federation of independent nations that is not aligned with either of the two great powers, and is trying to be like Switzerland used to be -- they don't take sides, and they don't stir up trouble. They mind their own business and avoid international disputes. A free citizen of Kansaslahoma finds a cache of documents showing that the Kremlin and Soviet oligarchs are using their military and financial might to lock up energy resources and systematically transfer wealth from nonaligned nations to the Soviet Union. 1. Giving the documents to the leaders of Kansaslahoma won't help, because they won't stir up disputes with a hyperpower. 2. Reviewing hundreds of thousands of documents by yourself isn't viable, and time is of the essence. 3. You can expose the docs for millions of people in nonaligned states to read and analyze. Maybe Moscow's data controls will be porous enough that some Soviet citizens will learn what their leaders are doing in their names. Even if your actions don't precipitate a revolution by themselves, you know that you're imposing a lot of security overhead every time they try to communicate among themselves. So the Soviet military-industrial-financial complex will become slower and less effective in their efforts at world domination.
  - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
    "1. Giving the documents to the leaders of Kansaslahoma won't help, because they won't stir up disputes with a hyperpower." It is my decision what nation to be a part of. If I am not happy with the nation I am in, my first obligation is to leave and find one that better suits me. It is not my job to conduct foreign relations or participate in espionage, even against the mighty Soviet military industrial complex. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

by alex_c 16y ago

DanielBMarkham 16y ago

Thought experiment: pick a foreign country that most people think is really screwed up. Let's pick Saudi Arabia, but you can pick any country. I hate the way SA does things. I hate the fact that they support terrorist. I hate the fact they oppress their women. I hate the fact that they oppress their people. I hate the fact they bleed us with oil money (continue on ad infinitum, or until you get a good head of steam worked up over how bad country X is) Now. I come across a big pile of documents from Saudi Arabia. All of their secret documents. All of the details of all the bad things they've done. All of the little evils. But also some good things. Some things that might hurt people (or not). And some things that I have no idea the importance of (probably the biggest hunk, really). We're back to the 3 choices again. I can give it all to my own government. I can choose a particular injustice and release documents in support of that (and be willing to accept the consequences) or I can dump them all on the web and effectively declare my own little personal war on Saudi Arabia. Option 3 is incredible because it didn't exist before. Sure, it used to be done -- there was a big dump of secret documents before WWI that partially led to the instability that caused the war -- but not by a single person. In this case I'd pick option 1 and be very happy about it. But I could also support somebody picking option 2. This is a personal decision. Option 3 is a non-starter with me. It is wrong under any circumstances. That help clear it up? You guys are so starry-eyed by the new existence of option 3 that you think it's going to solve all these huge problems. I'm telling you all it's going to do is cause somebody with a really big stick to come over and hit you on the head. And then we all suffer because a few guys thought bittorrent and aes could save the universe.

panarky 16y ago
I like this thought experiment. Let's try some speculative fiction to reflect the power dynamics a little better. In my alternate universe, the Soviet Union won the cold war and the United States collapsed. The former USA splintered into several regional nations. The European Union has been absorbed into the Soviet bloc, which now includes all of Western Europe and the Mediterranean. The Eastern Seaboard of North America from Newfoundland to Florida joined the Soviet bloc and the leaders of these nations are loyal to the Kremlin. The West Coast of North America from British Columbia through Baja California has deep military and economic integration with China, and is now subject to censorship and social controls dictated from Beijing. Saskatchewan through Texas and Mexico is now a loose federation of independent nations that is not aligned with either of the two great powers, and is trying to be like Switzerland used to be -- they don't take sides, and they don't stir up trouble. They mind their own business and avoid international disputes. A free citizen of Kansaslahoma finds a cache of documents showing that the Kremlin and Soviet oligarchs are using their military and financial might to lock up energy resources and systematically transfer wealth from nonaligned nations to the Soviet Union. 1. Giving the documents to the leaders of Kansaslahoma won't help, because they won't stir up disputes with a hyperpower. 2. Reviewing hundreds of thousands of documents by yourself isn't viable, and time is of the essence. 3. You can expose the docs for millions of people in nonaligned states to read and analyze. Maybe Moscow's data controls will be porous enough that some Soviet citizens will learn what their leaders are doing in their names. Even if your actions don't precipitate a revolution by themselves, you know that you're imposing a lot of security overhead every time they try to communicate among themselves. So the Soviet military-industrial-financial complex will become slower and less effective in their efforts at world domination.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  "1. Giving the documents to the leaders of Kansaslahoma won't help, because they won't stir up disputes with a hyperpower." It is my decision what nation to be a part of. If I am not happy with the nation I am in, my first obligation is to leave and find one that better suits me. It is not my job to conduct foreign relations or participate in espionage, even against the mighty Soviet military industrial complex. I thought I was pretty clear on that.