4 ms·

If someone has a serious medical reason to need a particular kind of straw, it seems like restaurants could carry a few to provide on request (any legal ban cou

If someone has a serious medical reason to need a particular kind of straw, it seems like restaurants could carry a few to provide on request (any legal ban could figure out some exception for this case), or the person could carry their own straw around.

DoreenMichele 8y ago
Maybe you are familiar with Spoon Theory? Disabled people who are up in arms about straws typically argue that it's yet one more burden on them when they have too many as is. I'm not well versed on the straws issues. But let's talk about the California bag ban for a minute. I've lived without a car for over a decade. I also have a compromised immune system. Disposable plastic bags are cleaner than reusable shopping bags. I almost never buy trash bags. I use my shopping bags as trash bags. I don't feel guilty about needing and wanting plastic shopping bags for convenience and germ control. The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. It is a burden for poor people, pedestrians and folks using public transit. There is no limit on rich people paying the extra 10 cents per bag to have all the bags they want. It's based on an assumption that you have a car and money and will not give up your car. It actively punishes serious environmental activists actually willing to live without a car. Getting more people to walk would do more good, imo.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  I pretty much only make grocery trips on foot. At least for this pedestrian, both reusable canvas bags and disposable paper bags work just fine for bringing groceries home. I don’t think I’ve met anyone who decided to always drive to the market instead of walking because of the plastic bag ban. If I need to lug home more than I can carry in two hands, dragging a wagon works pretty well. I re-use paper grocery bags as bags for recycling and compost. We get plenty of plastic bags to use for the trash bin from random other sources, but if we ever ran out, they cost a few cents each if you buy a box. Growing up in Mexico, we carried groceries home (a mile away and over a hill) from the market in baskets or sometimes backpacks, which was quite a bit less convenient than paper bags from a grocery store. I’m not sure why we didn’t use canvas tote bags.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    I'm glad your life works for you. Truly. But I'm extremely frustrated with the fact that no one seems to genuinely be interested in understanding anything I say on such topics. Even the best people here often come across as only asking so as to more effectively rebut my points, not to have their mind broadened or their understanding of the issues deepened. For someone like me, that's basically life threatening. And the burden is always on me to prove something, to be diplomatic and respectful, etc. I'm aware it's complicated by my story. I'm aware people find my story hard to believe. But if you will excuse me, I think it's time for me to walk away from this thread.
    - mikekchar 8y ago
      I'm genuinely interested in understanding what you have to say. It's difficult to understand though, since the only difference in our situations seems to be that you want to use plastic bags and I don't. When people are rebutting your arguments, I don't get the feeling that they don't want to understand what you are saying. Rather, I feel that they don't want to agree with what you are saying. It is very possible that we are all missing something integral to your overall argument, but since all of your individual points have been rebutted, it seems that this thing has been unspoken. It occurs to me that perhaps it isn't your argument that is falling on deaf ears. It's your feeling. Often times, when making an argument, it is hard to separate the two. If only I felt like you, then I would understand immediately. It's a thing that is hard, if not impossible, to put into words and so try as you might, it seems like nobody is able to understand. Indeed it seems like nobody wants to understand. I suppose if I try to use my imagination, I can imagine a scenario where I would feel the way you seem to feel. Of course, this is not likely to be the same feeling that you actually have. I hope you will forgive me in that I am probably unable to achieve that. In trying, though, I hope it will provide you the sense that I'm not against you and that even if I disagree with you, I care about your feelings. There have been many times when I have worked hard to get a system that works for me. Sometimes it's been just at the edge of my ability to achieve that system. I'm not good at everything in the world, unfortunately. In fact, I'm extremely bad at some things and even if I try as hard as I can, I can't maintain a level that would be normal for another person. You could say I am disabled in that sense... but it's not a disability that you can see. Nor is it a disability that you can write down on an application for aide. Honestly, I'm just bad at it. Other people can't understand why and so rarely, if ever, make any allowances for me. In that environment, I get my system going that allows me to just barely pass the level that is tolerated in society and I have pushed myself to the absolute limit to achieve that system. But then... society changes and they ask me to change my system. I want to break down in shame and cry out, "I *can't do it!", but I know that nobody will understand because it is a small thing for them. I don't know what to do because it is a burden I feel that I can't bear and yet nobody will help me. If you are feeling that kind of thing, then perhaps I can understand. All I can do is to pass on my support. Probably you'll be surprised that a lot of people feel this way about certain things, but owing to the aforementioned shame, they are reluctant to talk about it (or often even admit it to themselves). Even if I got this totally wrong, I hope it will make you feel better that somebody tried to understand.
- Hasz 8y ago
  Speaking of the bag tax: As someone who picks up groceries every week on a bike, a canvas bag is the way to go, purely from a practical, selfish standpoint; if you've ever carried home groceries, you know that plastic bags are probably the worst way to do it. They are hard to handle, prone to tears, and generally unreliable. On the other hand, a large canvas backpack or bag won't tear, can be used plenty of times, and generally works much better. That plastic ban bag is a good thing -- if you want the convenience of a one time use bag, you should pay for it.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  Rare allergies are pretty much destined to be yet one more burden, no matter how hard we wish that wasn't the case. It's just not feasible to make everything out of materials that won't trigger rare allergies. One group got lucky with allergies when it comes to one item out of millions. That's not a good reason to lock down the composition forever. We should help them to compensate for the trouble, but the most effective way is to do it directly. It's possible to use less effort to make them come out ahead, while still keeping the overall benefits from the material switch.
- smelendez 8y ago
  I'm not convinced it's based on people having cars, simply because the bag taxes and bans seemed to emerge first in New York, SF and other cities where lots of people don't have cars and shop at corner stores.
- yongjik 8y ago
  > The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. Well it might be regional difference, but I don't remember seeing anyone just "sticking their stuff in their shopping cart, take it out to the trunk, and driving home." Who likes to have their watermelons roll over their basil? Everybody who drives to the local Trader Joe's either bring their own bags or buy paper bags. There might be an argument against plastic bag ban, but I don't buy this one. Also, even if you buy just three dozen eggs (which might be one of the cheapest things you can fit in a shopping bag), the cost of a paper bag (10 cents?) is already something like a few percent of the whole purchase. Sure it might be a burden, but it doesn't seem like an excessive burden, especially since you can reuse a paper bag for months.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

Maybe you are familiar with Spoon Theory? Disabled people who are up in arms about straws typically argue that it's yet one more burden on them when they have too many as is. I'm not well versed on the straws issues. But let's talk about the California bag ban for a minute. I've lived without a car for over a decade. I also have a compromised immune system. Disposable plastic bags are cleaner than reusable shopping bags. I almost never buy trash bags. I use my shopping bags as trash bags. I don't feel guilty about needing and wanting plastic shopping bags for convenience and germ control. The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. It is a burden for poor people, pedestrians and folks using public transit. There is no limit on rich people paying the extra 10 cents per bag to have all the bags they want. It's based on an assumption that you have a car and money and will not give up your car. It actively punishes serious environmental activists actually willing to live without a car. Getting more people to walk would do more good, imo.

jacobolus 8y ago
I pretty much only make grocery trips on foot. At least for this pedestrian, both reusable canvas bags and disposable paper bags work just fine for bringing groceries home. I don’t think I’ve met anyone who decided to always drive to the market instead of walking because of the plastic bag ban. If I need to lug home more than I can carry in two hands, dragging a wagon works pretty well. I re-use paper grocery bags as bags for recycling and compost. We get plenty of plastic bags to use for the trash bin from random other sources, but if we ever ran out, they cost a few cents each if you buy a box. Growing up in Mexico, we carried groceries home (a mile away and over a hill) from the market in baskets or sometimes backpacks, which was quite a bit less convenient than paper bags from a grocery store. I’m not sure why we didn’t use canvas tote bags.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  I'm glad your life works for you. Truly. But I'm extremely frustrated with the fact that no one seems to genuinely be interested in understanding anything I say on such topics. Even the best people here often come across as only asking so as to more effectively rebut my points, not to have their mind broadened or their understanding of the issues deepened. For someone like me, that's basically life threatening. And the burden is always on me to prove something, to be diplomatic and respectful, etc. I'm aware it's complicated by my story. I'm aware people find my story hard to believe. But if you will excuse me, I think it's time for me to walk away from this thread.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    I'm genuinely interested in understanding what you have to say. It's difficult to understand though, since the only difference in our situations seems to be that you want to use plastic bags and I don't. When people are rebutting your arguments, I don't get the feeling that they don't want to understand what you are saying. Rather, I feel that they don't want to agree with what you are saying. It is very possible that we are all missing something integral to your overall argument, but since all of your individual points have been rebutted, it seems that this thing has been unspoken. It occurs to me that perhaps it isn't your argument that is falling on deaf ears. It's your feeling. Often times, when making an argument, it is hard to separate the two. If only I felt like you, then I would understand immediately. It's a thing that is hard, if not impossible, to put into words and so try as you might, it seems like nobody is able to understand. Indeed it seems like nobody wants to understand. I suppose if I try to use my imagination, I can imagine a scenario where I would feel the way you seem to feel. Of course, this is not likely to be the same feeling that you actually have. I hope you will forgive me in that I am probably unable to achieve that. In trying, though, I hope it will provide you the sense that I'm not against you and that even if I disagree with you, I care about your feelings. There have been many times when I have worked hard to get a system that works for me. Sometimes it's been just at the edge of my ability to achieve that system. I'm not good at everything in the world, unfortunately. In fact, I'm extremely bad at some things and even if I try as hard as I can, I can't maintain a level that would be normal for another person. You could say I am disabled in that sense... but it's not a disability that you can see. Nor is it a disability that you can write down on an application for aide. Honestly, I'm just bad at it. Other people can't understand why and so rarely, if ever, make any allowances for me. In that environment, I get my system going that allows me to just barely pass the level that is tolerated in society and I have pushed myself to the absolute limit to achieve that system. But then... society changes and they ask me to change my system. I want to break down in shame and cry out, "I *can't do it!", but I know that nobody will understand because it is a small thing for them. I don't know what to do because it is a burden I feel that I can't bear and yet nobody will help me. If you are feeling that kind of thing, then perhaps I can understand. All I can do is to pass on my support. Probably you'll be surprised that a lot of people feel this way about certain things, but owing to the aforementioned shame, they are reluctant to talk about it (or often even admit it to themselves). Even if I got this totally wrong, I hope it will make you feel better that somebody tried to understand.
Hasz 8y ago
Speaking of the bag tax: As someone who picks up groceries every week on a bike, a canvas bag is the way to go, purely from a practical, selfish standpoint; if you've ever carried home groceries, you know that plastic bags are probably the worst way to do it. They are hard to handle, prone to tears, and generally unreliable. On the other hand, a large canvas backpack or bag won't tear, can be used plenty of times, and generally works much better. That plastic ban bag is a good thing -- if you want the convenience of a one time use bag, you should pay for it.
Dylan16807 8y ago
Rare allergies are pretty much destined to be yet one more burden, no matter how hard we wish that wasn't the case. It's just not feasible to make everything out of materials that won't trigger rare allergies. One group got lucky with allergies when it comes to one item out of millions. That's not a good reason to lock down the composition forever. We should help them to compensate for the trouble, but the most effective way is to do it directly. It's possible to use less effort to make them come out ahead, while still keeping the overall benefits from the material switch.
smelendez 8y ago
I'm not convinced it's based on people having cars, simply because the bag taxes and bans seemed to emerge first in New York, SF and other cities where lots of people don't have cars and shop at corner stores.
yongjik 8y ago
> The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. Well it might be regional difference, but I don't remember seeing anyone just "sticking their stuff in their shopping cart, take it out to the trunk, and driving home." Who likes to have their watermelons roll over their basil? Everybody who drives to the local Trader Joe's either bring their own bags or buy paper bags. There might be an argument against plastic bag ban, but I don't buy this one. Also, even if you buy just three dozen eggs (which might be one of the cheapest things you can fit in a shopping bag), the cost of a paper bag (10 cents?) is already something like a few percent of the whole purchase. Sure it might be a burden, but it doesn't seem like an excessive burden, especially since you can reuse a paper bag for months.