5 ms·

What’s wrong with paper (or biodegradable plastic) straws, besides costing an extra penny or whatever?

DoreenMichele 8y ago
Some disabled people are allergic to paper. There are probably other issues. I'm not personally up in arms about it, but then I have yet to be directly impacted.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  If someone has a serious medical reason to need a particular kind of straw, it seems like restaurants could carry a few to provide on request (any legal ban could figure out some exception for this case), or the person could carry their own straw around.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Maybe you are familiar with Spoon Theory? Disabled people who are up in arms about straws typically argue that it's yet one more burden on them when they have too many as is. I'm not well versed on the straws issues. But let's talk about the California bag ban for a minute. I've lived without a car for over a decade. I also have a compromised immune system. Disposable plastic bags are cleaner than reusable shopping bags. I almost never buy trash bags. I use my shopping bags as trash bags. I don't feel guilty about needing and wanting plastic shopping bags for convenience and germ control. The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. It is a burden for poor people, pedestrians and folks using public transit. There is no limit on rich people paying the extra 10 cents per bag to have all the bags they want. It's based on an assumption that you have a car and money and will not give up your car. It actively punishes serious environmental activists actually willing to live without a car. Getting more people to walk would do more good, imo.
    - jacobolus 8y ago
      I pretty much only make grocery trips on foot. At least for this pedestrian, both reusable canvas bags and disposable paper bags work just fine for bringing groceries home. I don’t think I’ve met anyone who decided to always drive to the market instead of walking because of the plastic bag ban. If I need to lug home more than I can carry in two hands, dragging a wagon works pretty well. I re-use paper grocery bags as bags for recycling and compost. We get plenty of plastic bags to use for the trash bin from random other sources, but if we ever ran out, they cost a few cents each if you buy a box. Growing up in Mexico, we carried groceries home (a mile away and over a hill) from the market in baskets or sometimes backpacks, which was quite a bit less convenient than paper bags from a grocery store. I’m not sure why we didn’t use canvas tote bags.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I'm glad your life works for you. Truly. But I'm extremely frustrated with the fact that no one seems to genuinely be interested in understanding anything I say on such topics. Even the best people here often come across as only asking so as to more effectively rebut my points, not to have their mind broadened or their understanding of the issues deepened. For someone like me, that's basically life threatening. And the burden is always on me to prove something, to be diplomatic and respectful, etc. I'm aware it's complicated by my story. I'm aware people find my story hard to believe. But if you will excuse me, I think it's time for me to walk away from this thread.
        mikekchar 8y ago
        I'm genuinely interested in understanding what you have to say. It's difficult to understand though, since the only difference in our situations seems to be that you want to use plastic bags and I don't. When people are rebutting your arguments, I don't get the feeling that they don't want to understand what you are saying. Rather, I feel that they don't want to agree with what you are saying. It is very possible that we are all missing something integral to your overall argument, but since all of your individual points have been rebutted, it seems that this thing has been unspoken. It occurs to me that perhaps it isn't your argument that is falling on deaf ears. It's your feeling. Often times, when making an argument, it is hard to separate the two. If only I felt like you, then I would understand immediately. It's a thing that is hard, if not impossible, to put into words and so try as you might, it seems like nobody is able to understand. Indeed it seems like nobody wants to understand. I suppose if I try to use my imagination, I can imagine a scenario where I would feel the way you seem to feel. Of course, this is not likely to be the same feeling that you actually have. I hope you will forgive me in that I am probably unable to achieve that. In trying, though, I hope it will provide you the sense that I'm not against you and that even if I disagree with you, I care about your feelings. There have been many times when I have worked hard to get a system that works for me. Sometimes it's been just at the edge of my ability to achieve that system. I'm not good at everything in the world, unfortunately. In fact, I'm extremely bad at some things and even if I try as hard as I can, I can't maintain a level that would be normal for another person. You could say I am disabled in that sense... but it's not a disability that you can see. Nor is it a disability that you can write down on an application for aide. Honestly, I'm just bad at it. Other people can't understand why and so rarely, if ever, make any allowances for me. In that environment, I get my system going that allows me to just barely pass the level that is tolerated in society and I have pushed myself to the absolute limit to achieve that system. But then... society changes and they ask me to change my system. I want to break down in shame and cry out, "I *can't do it!", but I know that nobody will understand because it is a small thing for them. I don't know what to do because it is a burden I feel that I can't bear and yet nobody will help me. If you are feeling that kind of thing, then perhaps I can understand. All I can do is to pass on my support. Probably you'll be surprised that a lot of people feel this way about certain things, but owing to the aforementioned shame, they are reluctant to talk about it (or often even admit it to themselves). Even if I got this totally wrong, I hope it will make you feel better that somebody tried to understand.
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
In order to remain impermeable during exposure to liquid, wouldn’t a paper straw have to have some kind of coating? If that coating is plastic, then it would be no solution to the problem for which plastic straws have been criticized: microplastic pollution in the environment. If the coating is wax, the Wikipedia article for wax paper[0] suggests that there are often environmental issues. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_paper
- jacobolus 8y ago
  There were a few decades where paper straws were the standard. When plastic straws were first introduced, people complained that they were too light and wouldn’t stay down in carbonated drinks.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    > There were a few decades where paper straws were the standard. That still doesn’t answer the question I raised in my post though. Where the standard paper straws wax paper?
    - snazz 8y ago
      The modern ones seem to be very lightly coated if at all. I do think that the reaction that they are impossible to drink from is more than a little silly, though. Maybe if you leave the straw in the drink for many hours it will collapse on you? I haven’t tried that.
      - mises 8y ago
        I have used paper once or twice (albeit not in Florida, just some random place), and it didn't take long to get soggy. Drove me nuts. I feel like businesses will love this; forces people to drink quickly.
      - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
        > I do think that the reaction that they are impossible to drink from is more than a little silly, though. Why is it silly? Untreated cellulose is extremely absorbent. Other paper utensils that will either hold liquid or be exposed to liquid are almost always treated with wax or plastic.
pmoriarty 8y ago
"McDonald's is being called on to stop its roll out of paper straws in the UK and Ireland, amid claims that they "dissolve" in drinks." "Petition creator Martin Reed started it a week ago, complaining the new paper straws dissolve as you drink them. "Many social media users agree, with some claiming paper straws are "horrible" while one says it is like "drinking a milkshake through an empty toilet roll tube"." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48038130 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48038130
- misnome 8y ago
  I mean, it’s one anecdata point, but I like the new UK McDonald’s straws. Sure they taste different, but they last at least a couple of hours, and they are much stiffer - such that it’s easier to insert, stay where you put them and dont have a leaky bend in.
  - mises 8y ago
    > taste different I don't think most people want to taste straws. I certainly don't.
BurningFrog 8y ago
The ones I've had in SF were awful. They simply don't work.
mattigames 8y ago
Why is paper the first choice? The obvious choice I think is something that doesn't need to go to the garbage immediately but something re-usable such as metal straws or wood straws.
- mises 8y ago
  Carrying around a straw will cause you to end up with a sticky mess if you drink anything but water. I guess the option is to carry it to a bathroom and wash it after every use? No thank you.
  - mattigames 8y ago
    ...I meant as something owned by the cafeteria or restaurant, like metal forks and knifes, not something you carry around with you, just something you leave there after using for the staff to clean up.
  - rorykoehler 8y ago
    I have a straw that folds, comes in a case and has a squeegee to clean it after use. I can drink anything and not be concerned about any sticky mess. This one https://sg.carousell.com/p/coffee-bean-and-tea-leaf-collapsible-straw-215863189/ https://sg.carousell.com/p/coffee-bean-and-tea-leaf-collapsi...
- lozaning 8y ago
  Our company cafeteria has metal straws for sale for 50 cents, and a thing to wash them out with. Works pretty well other than getting the ocasional sideways question about what the metal straw I keep in my bag is for.
  - joecool1029 8y ago
    >Our company cafeteria has metal straws for sale for 50 cents, and a thing to wash them out with. Hygienic issues are the main concern I have with metal straws (e.g. when cafes have them for reuse). I'm assuming the one sold to you came with something like a pipe brush to run through it. For public locations it's really going to be on the staff to clean this thoroughly as I doubt a dishwasher is going to be enough. Wood for me would be worse in this regard, more opportunities for things to get stuck on them (or soak into the wood if lacquer fails)
joecool1029 8y ago
The problem is paper straws already suck on their own and disintegrate quickly in a regular cup. It's worse when you use a PLA (biodegradable/compostable) plastic cup with a paper straw. This is because PLA is usually much stiffer than PET or PS lids so you end up with the lid pinching off the straw in its death grip. I asked a disabled person with cerebral palsy about what he thought of paper straws. His answer: "I don't see the point in having a paper straw if the cup is already plastic"
- cstrat 8y ago
  Is there a market for reusable washable straws (perhaps metal?) for people with disability who require straws for everyday use? I know they already exist in some form. I've bought a rubber one for my toddler. The answer doesn't need to be that everyone uses plastic straws just to cater for a niche market.
- acchow 8y ago
  Unsurprisingly, higher quality paper straws have blossomed in the market since the ban was passed in San Francisco. Actually, I find most paper straws in SF to be quite good now.
bayareanative 8y ago
Nothing. There's a coffeeshop down the street that has them.

Some disabled people are allergic to paper. There are probably other issues. I'm not personally up in arms about it, but then I have yet to be directly impacted.

jacobolus 8y ago
If someone has a serious medical reason to need a particular kind of straw, it seems like restaurants could carry a few to provide on request (any legal ban could figure out some exception for this case), or the person could carry their own straw around.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  Maybe you are familiar with Spoon Theory? Disabled people who are up in arms about straws typically argue that it's yet one more burden on them when they have too many as is. I'm not well versed on the straws issues. But let's talk about the California bag ban for a minute. I've lived without a car for over a decade. I also have a compromised immune system. Disposable plastic bags are cleaner than reusable shopping bags. I almost never buy trash bags. I use my shopping bags as trash bags. I don't feel guilty about needing and wanting plastic shopping bags for convenience and germ control. The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. It is a burden for poor people, pedestrians and folks using public transit. There is no limit on rich people paying the extra 10 cents per bag to have all the bags they want. It's based on an assumption that you have a car and money and will not give up your car. It actively punishes serious environmental activists actually willing to live without a car. Getting more people to walk would do more good, imo.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    I pretty much only make grocery trips on foot. At least for this pedestrian, both reusable canvas bags and disposable paper bags work just fine for bringing groceries home. I don’t think I’ve met anyone who decided to always drive to the market instead of walking because of the plastic bag ban. If I need to lug home more than I can carry in two hands, dragging a wagon works pretty well. I re-use paper grocery bags as bags for recycling and compost. We get plenty of plastic bags to use for the trash bin from random other sources, but if we ever ran out, they cost a few cents each if you buy a box. Growing up in Mexico, we carried groceries home (a mile away and over a hill) from the market in baskets or sometimes backpacks, which was quite a bit less convenient than paper bags from a grocery store. I’m not sure why we didn’t use canvas tote bags.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I'm glad your life works for you. Truly. But I'm extremely frustrated with the fact that no one seems to genuinely be interested in understanding anything I say on such topics. Even the best people here often come across as only asking so as to more effectively rebut my points, not to have their mind broadened or their understanding of the issues deepened. For someone like me, that's basically life threatening. And the burden is always on me to prove something, to be diplomatic and respectful, etc. I'm aware it's complicated by my story. I'm aware people find my story hard to believe. But if you will excuse me, I think it's time for me to walk away from this thread.
      - mikekchar 8y ago
        I'm genuinely interested in understanding what you have to say. It's difficult to understand though, since the only difference in our situations seems to be that you want to use plastic bags and I don't. When people are rebutting your arguments, I don't get the feeling that they don't want to understand what you are saying. Rather, I feel that they don't want to agree with what you are saying. It is very possible that we are all missing something integral to your overall argument, but since all of your individual points have been rebutted, it seems that this thing has been unspoken. It occurs to me that perhaps it isn't your argument that is falling on deaf ears. It's your feeling. Often times, when making an argument, it is hard to separate the two. If only I felt like you, then I would understand immediately. It's a thing that is hard, if not impossible, to put into words and so try as you might, it seems like nobody is able to understand. Indeed it seems like nobody wants to understand. I suppose if I try to use my imagination, I can imagine a scenario where I would feel the way you seem to feel. Of course, this is not likely to be the same feeling that you actually have. I hope you will forgive me in that I am probably unable to achieve that. In trying, though, I hope it will provide you the sense that I'm not against you and that even if I disagree with you, I care about your feelings. There have been many times when I have worked hard to get a system that works for me. Sometimes it's been just at the edge of my ability to achieve that system. I'm not good at everything in the world, unfortunately. In fact, I'm extremely bad at some things and even if I try as hard as I can, I can't maintain a level that would be normal for another person. You could say I am disabled in that sense... but it's not a disability that you can see. Nor is it a disability that you can write down on an application for aide. Honestly, I'm just bad at it. Other people can't understand why and so rarely, if ever, make any allowances for me. In that environment, I get my system going that allows me to just barely pass the level that is tolerated in society and I have pushed myself to the absolute limit to achieve that system. But then... society changes and they ask me to change my system. I want to break down in shame and cry out, "I *can't do it!", but I know that nobody will understand because it is a small thing for them. I don't know what to do because it is a burden I feel that I can't bear and yet nobody will help me. If you are feeling that kind of thing, then perhaps I can understand. All I can do is to pass on my support. Probably you'll be surprised that a lot of people feel this way about certain things, but owing to the aforementioned shame, they are reluctant to talk about it (or often even admit it to themselves). Even if I got this totally wrong, I hope it will make you feel better that somebody tried to understand.

Mediterraneo10 8y ago

In order to remain impermeable during exposure to liquid, wouldn’t a paper straw have to have some kind of coating? If that coating is plastic, then it would be no solution to the problem for which plastic straws have been criticized: microplastic pollution in the environment. If the coating is wax, the Wikipedia article for wax paper[0] suggests that there are often environmental issues. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_paper

jacobolus 8y ago
There were a few decades where paper straws were the standard. When plastic straws were first introduced, people complained that they were too light and wouldn’t stay down in carbonated drinks.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > There were a few decades where paper straws were the standard. That still doesn’t answer the question I raised in my post though. Where the standard paper straws wax paper?
  - snazz 8y ago
    The modern ones seem to be very lightly coated if at all. I do think that the reaction that they are impossible to drink from is more than a little silly, though. Maybe if you leave the straw in the drink for many hours it will collapse on you? I haven’t tried that.
    - mises 8y ago
      I have used paper once or twice (albeit not in Florida, just some random place), and it didn't take long to get soggy. Drove me nuts. I feel like businesses will love this; forces people to drink quickly.
    - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
      > I do think that the reaction that they are impossible to drink from is more than a little silly, though. Why is it silly? Untreated cellulose is extremely absorbent. Other paper utensils that will either hold liquid or be exposed to liquid are almost always treated with wax or plastic.

pmoriarty 8y ago

"McDonald's is being called on to stop its roll out of paper straws in the UK and Ireland, amid claims that they "dissolve" in drinks." "Petition creator Martin Reed started it a week ago, complaining the new paper straws dissolve as you drink them. "Many social media users agree, with some claiming paper straws are "horrible" while one says it is like "drinking a milkshake through an empty toilet roll tube"." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48038130 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48038130

misnome 8y ago
I mean, it’s one anecdata point, but I like the new UK McDonald’s straws. Sure they taste different, but they last at least a couple of hours, and they are much stiffer - such that it’s easier to insert, stay where you put them and dont have a leaky bend in.
- mises 8y ago
  > taste different I don't think most people want to taste straws. I certainly don't.

BurningFrog 8y ago

The ones I've had in SF were awful. They simply don't work.

mattigames 8y ago

Why is paper the first choice? The obvious choice I think is something that doesn't need to go to the garbage immediately but something re-usable such as metal straws or wood straws.

mises 8y ago
Carrying around a straw will cause you to end up with a sticky mess if you drink anything but water. I guess the option is to carry it to a bathroom and wash it after every use? No thank you.
- mattigames 8y ago
  ...I meant as something owned by the cafeteria or restaurant, like metal forks and knifes, not something you carry around with you, just something you leave there after using for the staff to clean up.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  I have a straw that folds, comes in a case and has a squeegee to clean it after use. I can drink anything and not be concerned about any sticky mess. This one https://sg.carousell.com/p/coffee-bean-and-tea-leaf-collapsible-straw-215863189/ https://sg.carousell.com/p/coffee-bean-and-tea-leaf-collapsi...
lozaning 8y ago
Our company cafeteria has metal straws for sale for 50 cents, and a thing to wash them out with. Works pretty well other than getting the ocasional sideways question about what the metal straw I keep in my bag is for.
- joecool1029 8y ago
  >Our company cafeteria has metal straws for sale for 50 cents, and a thing to wash them out with. Hygienic issues are the main concern I have with metal straws (e.g. when cafes have them for reuse). I'm assuming the one sold to you came with something like a pipe brush to run through it. For public locations it's really going to be on the staff to clean this thoroughly as I doubt a dishwasher is going to be enough. Wood for me would be worse in this regard, more opportunities for things to get stuck on them (or soak into the wood if lacquer fails)

joecool1029 8y ago

The problem is paper straws already suck on their own and disintegrate quickly in a regular cup. It's worse when you use a PLA (biodegradable/compostable) plastic cup with a paper straw. This is because PLA is usually much stiffer than PET or PS lids so you end up with the lid pinching off the straw in its death grip. I asked a disabled person with cerebral palsy about what he thought of paper straws. His answer: "I don't see the point in having a paper straw if the cup is already plastic"

cstrat 8y ago
Is there a market for reusable washable straws (perhaps metal?) for people with disability who require straws for everyday use? I know they already exist in some form. I've bought a rubber one for my toddler. The answer doesn't need to be that everyone uses plastic straws just to cater for a niche market.
acchow 8y ago
Unsurprisingly, higher quality paper straws have blossomed in the market since the ban was passed in San Francisco. Actually, I find most paper straws in SF to be quite good now.

bayareanative 8y ago

Nothing. There's a coffeeshop down the street that has them.