11 ms·

Thousands take to Hong Kong streets to protest new extradition laws

246 points by abc-xyz 7y ago

bayareanative 7y ago
HK is slowly-but-surely heading towards full Orwellian Chinese rule. The handover was the beginning of the end, and all promises would be unenforceable and breached. It doesn't matter about petitionings through some international bodies, China could care less.
PutinIsMyGod 7y ago
As a Chinese-American, I want nothing more than for China to succeed and reunite with Taiwan and establish complete dominance in Asia. If they have to get their hands dirty with extradition laws then so be it.
- voldacar 7y ago
  You are trolling, right?
  - thoughtstheseus 7y ago
    Just look at the name...
  - PutinIsMyGod 7y ago
    Why would I be trolling? The West has been winging it for half a century. It's time for China to step up to the world stage. And I'm saying this as a Chinese-American. I've seen both sides. China is better.
    - Samis2001 7y ago
      By what metric of 'better'?
      - golergka 7y ago
        Have your read the username?
    - dang 7y ago
      We've banned this account for nationalistic flamewar. It's off topic here to say the least, and we don't allow it, regardless of which nation is being liked or disliked. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jimrhods23 7y ago
Good luck. China owns Hong Kong. Since the mainland gets to decide who runs in major elections, there is only an illusion of independence.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > China owns Hong Kong Not yet [1], not technically. Hong Kong, through the UK, has legal redress in international law which would at least make overt subjugation politically costly for Beijing. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    Nobody is going to start WW3 over China tightening its grip on Hong Kong at this point. Because the west and China's economies are so tightly intertwined a war would be disasturous economically and militarily and for what purpose to prevent the inevitable 30 years early? Heck sanctions are almost pointless too. The closer the 2047 deadline gets the tighter the control will become.
  - ryder9 7y ago
    Great video by Vox on the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    > Hong Kong, through the UK, has legal redress in international law The UK has gradually lost interest in ensuring that Hong Kong’s Basic Law is respected. For the UK, fighting for Hong Kong would jeopardize its relationship with the mainland, which is much more important in terms of business and trade. Plus, mainland China has become more assertive and its leadership claims that China is rising back up again after the colonial era kept it down – an era in which the UK played no small role, both in the Opium Wars and in holding Hong Kong as a colonial possession. That means that if the UK tries to really fight for Hong Kong, it will be attacked for acting like a meddling colonial power again. The UK is just too sensitive to the propaganda campaign that China could throw at it.
mrtweetyhack 7y ago
Next day, those same thousands are missing, jobless, or fined for some dumb reasons.
est31 7y ago
You could wonder: why does the mighty bejing government care about these little provinces that dabble with democracy? Actually, Hong Kong and Taiwan are very dangerous to the mainland government. They harbour elites who keep values of democracy and freedom. Those elites potentially could be put into power in order to oversee democratization of China. Not saying that they ever will, but it's certainly a danger for them.
- YorkshireSeason 7y ago
  Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Other than that, I agree with your assessment: Taiwan's thriving democracy undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party claim to power, in particular the CCP's narrative that democracy is neither needed nor wanted, nor desirable for the Chinese people.
  - dforrestwilson 7y ago
    Who would possibly downvote this? Occam’s Razor.
    - sbzodnsbd 7y ago
      Well I don’t think they should be down voted, but it is wrong. Taiwan is de-jure a part of China. China just happens to be in the curious state of having two competing entities claiming to be the legitimate government. Both ROC and Beijing agree Taiwan is China. The “C” in ROC is China!
      - jacobolus 7y ago
        Taiwanese people I know don’t believe this, and my impression is that the Taiwanese government’s continuing claim over China is mostly a matter of historical inertia and symbolism rather than a serious practical goal. But many mainland Chinese do, and the government spends considerable effort cajoling/bullying the rest of the world to not recognize Taiwanese sovereignty. From what I can tell there is a real threat China might sometime attempt military conquest.
product50 7y ago
Hong Kong should just give up at this point. China is a million times more powerful and no foreign power is coming to save them. Also, most major businesses have moved to Singapore as their APAC HQ since the China handover.
- magnusjonsson 7y ago
  No, Hong Kong should lead the way.
chriselles 7y ago
I wonder how many activists in Hong Kong have been pinched by Mainland China Ministry of State Security in recent years? I’ve read of a few missing persons in Hong Kong suspected of being put in the bag. If I had to guess, Xi will not allow opposition and the temperature will be slowly increased over time in Hong Kong. I believe extraditions will be allowed to Mainland China, openly legitimising what has already been done in recent years.
- isaaafc 7y ago
  We don't know how many were taken discreetly (perhaps lesser known people), but the case that caused much concern was the bookstore owners disappearances [1]. Owners of a bookstore that sold PRC-censored books were taken to China secretly, trialed and convicted. One of them was even a Swedish national, but the CCP insisted he was "Chinese". He released a video "admitting" to his crimes of drunk driving a few years prior but his name in the records didn't even match his actual name, i.e. he was obviously forced to admit to a crime he didn't commit. Another one reappeared in Hong Kong, said he would take his family to China, praised Chinese living quality, and went back to China. When the law is passed, the CCP doesn't need to abduct people discreetly anymore. They would simply order Hong Kong's officials to transfer them. In short, once this law is passed, no one is safe. Not even foreigners. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
  - pimmen 7y ago
    Which is probably why alot of business is backing this protest in contrast to the Umbrella protest of 2014; their lawyers know that it would be harder to incentivize Western business to send people and capital when they can be arbitrarily seized.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    China could also use mainland family members as leverage, which might explain its otherwise-surprising influence over HK citizens outside its official reach. (Could they really credibly threaten to abduct him a second time, with the whole world watching?)
cirrus-clouds 7y ago
Vox has an excellent video called 'China is erasing its border with Hong Kong' which details how the Chinese government is tightening it's control of Hong Kong. It's well worth a watch. Here's the video description: "When Britain handed Hong Kong back to China in 1997, Chinese leaders agreed that Hong Kong would be able to keep its economic and political systems, including some of the civil freedoms denied to China’s citizens on the mainland, for the next 50 years. Although Hong Kong still has nearly 30 years of semi-autonomy left, China has started tightening its grip, and many believe it is chipping away at Hong Kong’s freedoms." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8
- macspoofing 7y ago
  The only thing keeping Hong Kong's sovereignty (such as it is) is Taiwan. There is some understanding on the Chinese side that a full annexation of the territory would strengthen independence hardliners in Taiwan - which is the real prize because Taiwan is absolutely critical for Chinese national defense. If it wasn't for that, Hong Kong would have been wholly annexed by now.
  - wbl 7y ago
    Taiwan is not critical for Chinese defense. Who wants to pick a fight with a giant well funded army?
    - adventured 7y ago
      > Who wants to pick a fight with a giant well funded army? History is littered with modern examples. The US Colonies (British Empire). Latin America (Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, British, French). The Viet Cong (US, France). Finland (Russia). Iraqi resistance groups (US). The Taliban, Mujahideen (US, Russia). North Korea (UN). Ukraine (Russia). Hezbollah (Israel). Yugoslavia (NATO). Emus (Australia). Every giant well funded army has also lost at some point. For China, it's ideal to remove Taiwan as a staging ground that could be held by any opposition. Consider a scenario where it's NATO countries + Japan + South Korea + Taiwan, + Australia + New Zealand vs China in a massive conflict (or any similar variation). It would be far better to wholly control the island of Taiwan than not.
mensetmanusman 7y ago
It is hard to imagine what it must be like being a young person in HK. Growing up with some semblance of individual liberty (small L liberalism) and then knowing it will be gone in your lifetime. It would have been better to always be under authoritarian rule... then you wouldn’t know what you were about to go without.

246 points by abc-xyz 7y ago

HK is slowly-but-surely heading towards full Orwellian Chinese rule. The handover was the beginning of the end, and all promises would be unenforceable and breached. It doesn't matter about petitionings through some international bodies, China could care less.

PutinIsMyGod 7y ago

As a Chinese-American, I want nothing more than for China to succeed and reunite with Taiwan and establish complete dominance in Asia. If they have to get their hands dirty with extradition laws then so be it.

voldacar 7y ago
You are trolling, right?
- thoughtstheseus 7y ago
  Just look at the name...
- PutinIsMyGod 7y ago
  Why would I be trolling? The West has been winging it for half a century. It's time for China to step up to the world stage. And I'm saying this as a Chinese-American. I've seen both sides. China is better.
  - Samis2001 7y ago
    By what metric of 'better'?
    - golergka 7y ago
      Have your read the username?
  - dang 7y ago
    We've banned this account for nationalistic flamewar. It's off topic here to say the least, and we don't allow it, regardless of which nation is being liked or disliked. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jimrhods23 7y ago

Good luck. China owns Hong Kong. Since the mainland gets to decide who runs in major elections, there is only an illusion of independence.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> China owns Hong Kong Not yet [1], not technically. Hong Kong, through the UK, has legal redress in international law which would at least make overt subjugation politically costly for Beijing. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong
- meddlepal 7y ago
  Nobody is going to start WW3 over China tightening its grip on Hong Kong at this point. Because the west and China's economies are so tightly intertwined a war would be disasturous economically and militarily and for what purpose to prevent the inevitable 30 years early? Heck sanctions are almost pointless too. The closer the 2047 deadline gets the tighter the control will become.
- ryder9 7y ago
  Great video by Vox on the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  > Hong Kong, through the UK, has legal redress in international law The UK has gradually lost interest in ensuring that Hong Kong’s Basic Law is respected. For the UK, fighting for Hong Kong would jeopardize its relationship with the mainland, which is much more important in terms of business and trade. Plus, mainland China has become more assertive and its leadership claims that China is rising back up again after the colonial era kept it down – an era in which the UK played no small role, both in the Opium Wars and in holding Hong Kong as a colonial possession. That means that if the UK tries to really fight for Hong Kong, it will be attacked for acting like a meddling colonial power again. The UK is just too sensitive to the propaganda campaign that China could throw at it.

mrtweetyhack 7y ago

Next day, those same thousands are missing, jobless, or fined for some dumb reasons.

est31 7y ago

You could wonder: why does the mighty bejing government care about these little provinces that dabble with democracy? Actually, Hong Kong and Taiwan are very dangerous to the mainland government. They harbour elites who keep values of democracy and freedom. Those elites potentially could be put into power in order to oversee democratization of China. Not saying that they ever will, but it's certainly a danger for them.

YorkshireSeason 7y ago
Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Other than that, I agree with your assessment: Taiwan's thriving democracy undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party claim to power, in particular the CCP's narrative that democracy is neither needed nor wanted, nor desirable for the Chinese people.
- dforrestwilson 7y ago
  Who would possibly downvote this? Occam’s Razor.
  - sbzodnsbd 7y ago
    Well I don’t think they should be down voted, but it is wrong. Taiwan is de-jure a part of China. China just happens to be in the curious state of having two competing entities claiming to be the legitimate government. Both ROC and Beijing agree Taiwan is China. The “C” in ROC is China!
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      Taiwanese people I know don’t believe this, and my impression is that the Taiwanese government’s continuing claim over China is mostly a matter of historical inertia and symbolism rather than a serious practical goal. But many mainland Chinese do, and the government spends considerable effort cajoling/bullying the rest of the world to not recognize Taiwanese sovereignty. From what I can tell there is a real threat China might sometime attempt military conquest.

product50 7y ago

Hong Kong should just give up at this point. China is a million times more powerful and no foreign power is coming to save them. Also, most major businesses have moved to Singapore as their APAC HQ since the China handover.

magnusjonsson 7y ago
No, Hong Kong should lead the way.

chriselles 7y ago

I wonder how many activists in Hong Kong have been pinched by Mainland China Ministry of State Security in recent years? I’ve read of a few missing persons in Hong Kong suspected of being put in the bag. If I had to guess, Xi will not allow opposition and the temperature will be slowly increased over time in Hong Kong. I believe extraditions will be allowed to Mainland China, openly legitimising what has already been done in recent years.

isaaafc 7y ago
We don't know how many were taken discreetly (perhaps lesser known people), but the case that caused much concern was the bookstore owners disappearances [1]. Owners of a bookstore that sold PRC-censored books were taken to China secretly, trialed and convicted. One of them was even a Swedish national, but the CCP insisted he was "Chinese". He released a video "admitting" to his crimes of drunk driving a few years prior but his name in the records didn't even match his actual name, i.e. he was obviously forced to admit to a crime he didn't commit. Another one reappeared in Hong Kong, said he would take his family to China, praised Chinese living quality, and went back to China. When the law is passed, the CCP doesn't need to abduct people discreetly anymore. They would simply order Hong Kong's officials to transfer them. In short, once this law is passed, no one is safe. Not even foreigners. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
- pimmen 7y ago
  Which is probably why alot of business is backing this protest in contrast to the Umbrella protest of 2014; their lawyers know that it would be harder to incentivize Western business to send people and capital when they can be arbitrarily seized.
- closeparen 7y ago
  China could also use mainland family members as leverage, which might explain its otherwise-surprising influence over HK citizens outside its official reach. (Could they really credibly threaten to abduct him a second time, with the whole world watching?)

cirrus-clouds 7y ago

Vox has an excellent video called 'China is erasing its border with Hong Kong' which details how the Chinese government is tightening it's control of Hong Kong. It's well worth a watch. Here's the video description: "When Britain handed Hong Kong back to China in 1997, Chinese leaders agreed that Hong Kong would be able to keep its economic and political systems, including some of the civil freedoms denied to China’s citizens on the mainland, for the next 50 years. Although Hong Kong still has nearly 30 years of semi-autonomy left, China has started tightening its grip, and many believe it is chipping away at Hong Kong’s freedoms." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8

macspoofing 7y ago
The only thing keeping Hong Kong's sovereignty (such as it is) is Taiwan. There is some understanding on the Chinese side that a full annexation of the territory would strengthen independence hardliners in Taiwan - which is the real prize because Taiwan is absolutely critical for Chinese national defense. If it wasn't for that, Hong Kong would have been wholly annexed by now.
- wbl 7y ago
  Taiwan is not critical for Chinese defense. Who wants to pick a fight with a giant well funded army?
  - adventured 7y ago
    > Who wants to pick a fight with a giant well funded army? History is littered with modern examples. The US Colonies (British Empire). Latin America (Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, British, French). The Viet Cong (US, France). Finland (Russia). Iraqi resistance groups (US). The Taliban, Mujahideen (US, Russia). North Korea (UN). Ukraine (Russia). Hezbollah (Israel). Yugoslavia (NATO). Emus (Australia). Every giant well funded army has also lost at some point. For China, it's ideal to remove Taiwan as a staging ground that could be held by any opposition. Consider a scenario where it's NATO countries + Japan + South Korea + Taiwan, + Australia + New Zealand vs China in a massive conflict (or any similar variation). It would be far better to wholly control the island of Taiwan than not.

mensetmanusman 7y ago

It is hard to imagine what it must be like being a young person in HK. Growing up with some semblance of individual liberty (small L liberalism) and then knowing it will be gone in your lifetime. It would have been better to always be under authoritarian rule... then you wouldn’t know what you were about to go without.