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> if a driver killed you because you ran a red light, that could seriously harm their wellbeing While there are people who would be seriously bothered if they

> if a driver killed you because you ran a red light, that could seriously harm their wellbeing While there are people who would be seriously bothered if they inadvertently contributed to a cyclist's death, I think the number of such people is smaller than the number of people who claim they would be bothered. One only needs to look at their revealed preferences to show this. Given the choice between waiting a minute or two (estimated 95th percentile; the median is likely around 15 seconds) to safely pass a cyclist, many drivers instead choose to pass a cyclist very closely and dangerously. If they actually would be bothered if they killed a cyclist, why do they do this? My life is not worth a minute of someone's time. Of course, the bad drivers could claim that they didn't know passing a cyclist closely was dangerous, but in my experience few drivers claim that. I've spoken to many drivers when stopped at stop lights, trying to understand their perspective. Often they imply that I deserve to be passed dangerous because I broke some rules of the road. So they can't claim ignorance. (The "rules" I broke are not actually rules. For example, I've had people tell me that I was going far below the speed limit when I was going 17-18 mph in a 15 mph zone. I intentionally picked that road because of the low speed limit, yet some people want to drive 40+ mph there and apparently that makes me a jerk who deserves to be run over.)

nitrogen 8y ago
You cannot use driver behavior in the absence of an accident to infer the emotional impact of killing someone...
- btrettel 8y ago
  Why? These drivers often show no remorse for their actions, as I stated. I don't doubt I'd be a victim of a hit-and-run if any of those drivers actually did cause a collision. I've seen arguments that people are "different" when driving, so perhaps they're a jerk when behind the wheel but a normal person otherwise. I haven't seen any clear evidence for this but it would indicate that the emotional impact would be different.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    They show no remorse mostly because you didn't end up hurt. You should know how bad people are at estimating risk. Combine that with some short-lasting road rage and you can easily find someone that will do dangerous things all the time but be distraught if that ends in death.
    - btrettel 8y ago
      > They show no remorse mostly because you didn't end up hurt. I disagree with the emphasized part of your statement. Drivers seem worried about the emotional consequences of killing someone. But apparently the emotional consequences of nearly being killed don't count? Or at least they haven't been mentioned here. Nearly being killed is not harmless. > Combine that with some short-lasting road rage and you can easily find someone that will do dangerous things all the time but be distraught if that ends in death. I can accept that many drivers are road raging and that their behavior otherwise would be different. But I can't accept that's all of them, as that seems inconsistent with my experience in over a decade of cycling.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        They don't see it as 'nearly killed', so yeah no major emotional consequences. They don't have to be correct to be understandable.
  - RHSeeger 8y ago
    > I don't doubt I'd be a victim of a hit-and-run if any of those drivers actually did cause a collision. The only way I can read this is that you believe, of the people that cause a collision with a bicycle (accidentally or otherwise), all (or almost all) of them would just leave you to die on the side of the road. That is a staggeringly low opinion of humanity.
    - btrettel 8y ago
      The low opinion is not of humanity, rather, certain drivers who are particularly dangerous. I didn't have all drivers who'd be in a collision with a cyclist in mind, just a large fraction of those who deliberately pass cyclists closely. My wording was too strong. Hit and run crashes account for roughly 12% of all crashes in the US, so they may be more common than you believe: https://aaafoundation.org/hit-and-run-crashes-prevalence-contributing-factors-and-countermeasures/ https://aaafoundation.org/hit-and-run-crashes-prevalence-con...
btrettel 8y ago
Too late to edit now, but on second thought many drivers who pass me dangerously might not believe that I deserve to be passed dangerously. I've heard many times from these drivers that they "had no choice but to pass me dangerously". But they did have a choice. And they seem entirely aware that what they did was dangerous, which is my point in that paragraph.
- mercer 8y ago
  As a driver in a country that respects biking (The Netherlands), it's completely normal to, say, spend quite a bit of time driving very slowly behind a cyclist or two because there's oncoming traffic so no way to pass them without having the whole road available. It's also perfectly normal to be extremely careful at crossroads because some cyclists consider red lights suggestions. Of course, when cyclists clearly misbehave there'll be grumbling, but I find it interesting that even in those cases, my 'rage' pretty much never crosses the line of respecting cyclists at all costs. It's just part of how we're taught to behave as drivers (and, I suppose, the legal ramifications that generally favor cyclists, afaik).

nitrogen 8y ago

You cannot use driver behavior in the absence of an accident to infer the emotional impact of killing someone...

btrettel 8y ago
Why? These drivers often show no remorse for their actions, as I stated. I don't doubt I'd be a victim of a hit-and-run if any of those drivers actually did cause a collision. I've seen arguments that people are "different" when driving, so perhaps they're a jerk when behind the wheel but a normal person otherwise. I haven't seen any clear evidence for this but it would indicate that the emotional impact would be different.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  They show no remorse mostly because you didn't end up hurt. You should know how bad people are at estimating risk. Combine that with some short-lasting road rage and you can easily find someone that will do dangerous things all the time but be distraught if that ends in death.
  - btrettel 8y ago
    > They show no remorse mostly because you didn't end up hurt. I disagree with the emphasized part of your statement. Drivers seem worried about the emotional consequences of killing someone. But apparently the emotional consequences of nearly being killed don't count? Or at least they haven't been mentioned here. Nearly being killed is not harmless. > Combine that with some short-lasting road rage and you can easily find someone that will do dangerous things all the time but be distraught if that ends in death. I can accept that many drivers are road raging and that their behavior otherwise would be different. But I can't accept that's all of them, as that seems inconsistent with my experience in over a decade of cycling.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      They don't see it as 'nearly killed', so yeah no major emotional consequences. They don't have to be correct to be understandable.
- RHSeeger 8y ago
  > I don't doubt I'd be a victim of a hit-and-run if any of those drivers actually did cause a collision. The only way I can read this is that you believe, of the people that cause a collision with a bicycle (accidentally or otherwise), all (or almost all) of them would just leave you to die on the side of the road. That is a staggeringly low opinion of humanity.
  - btrettel 8y ago
    The low opinion is not of humanity, rather, certain drivers who are particularly dangerous. I didn't have all drivers who'd be in a collision with a cyclist in mind, just a large fraction of those who deliberately pass cyclists closely. My wording was too strong. Hit and run crashes account for roughly 12% of all crashes in the US, so they may be more common than you believe: https://aaafoundation.org/hit-and-run-crashes-prevalence-contributing-factors-and-countermeasures/ https://aaafoundation.org/hit-and-run-crashes-prevalence-con...

btrettel 8y ago

Too late to edit now, but on second thought many drivers who pass me dangerously might not believe that I deserve to be passed dangerously. I've heard many times from these drivers that they "had no choice but to pass me dangerously". But they did have a choice. And they seem entirely aware that what they did was dangerous, which is my point in that paragraph.

mercer 8y ago
As a driver in a country that respects biking (The Netherlands), it's completely normal to, say, spend quite a bit of time driving very slowly behind a cyclist or two because there's oncoming traffic so no way to pass them without having the whole road available. It's also perfectly normal to be extremely careful at crossroads because some cyclists consider red lights suggestions. Of course, when cyclists clearly misbehave there'll be grumbling, but I find it interesting that even in those cases, my 'rage' pretty much never crosses the line of respecting cyclists at all costs. It's just part of how we're taught to behave as drivers (and, I suppose, the legal ramifications that generally favor cyclists, afaik).