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> It seems like we as a society need to figure out a way to make "have children at a reasonable age" not be a low-status move for highly educated / driven / int

> It seems like we as a society need to figure out a way to make "have children at a reasonable age" not be a low-status move for highly educated / driven / intelligent women. Isn't the obvious answer better maternity leave laws? Ambitious women in the US don't have kids because it fucks their career. The US is literally last among OECD countries, offering zero guaranteed maternity pay [1]. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/19/news/economy/countries-most-maternity-leave/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/19/news/economy/countries-most...

yellow_postit 7y ago
Paternity laws as well, though Maternity should come first. It needs to be at the federal or state level.
nradov 7y ago
That would be a good start, but overall I think access to high quality child care is more important than maternity leave.
- simonsarris 7y ago
  Higher/highest quality child care is not putting your kid in child care at all. I don't know why rich parents would want to risk the long term welfare of their kids so they can work more. Kids that spend lots of time in child care are objectively worse off. https://ifstudies.org/blog/measuring-the-long-term-effects-of-early-extensive-day-care https://ifstudies.org/blog/measuring-the-long-term-effects-o... > Within 10 years, comprehensive analyses of the universal, “$5 per day childcare” program, including its impact on child care use, employment patterns, and children’s and parent outcomes, suggested cause for concern. Social development among children, as indicated by both emotional and behavioral measures, had significantly deteriorated in Quebec, relative to the rest of Canada (10% of a standard deviation lower). Comparisons between children ages 2 to 4 who had been exposed to the program, with older children (and siblings) who had not, revealed significant increases in anxiety, hyperactivity, and aggression in those exposed to the program. And the analyses found more hostile, inconsistent parenting, and lower-quality parental relationships among parents of children exposed to the program. But it was hard to predict whether the negative outcomes identified for 2- to 4-year-olds would persist across their development, or simply dissipate. > Their research confirmed that the negative effects did continue, and in some cases became stronger across development. Among 5 to 9-year-olds, negative social-emotional outcomes not only persisted, but in some cases increased, as indicated by 24% of a standard deviation increase in anxiety, a 19% increase in aggression, and a 13% in hyperactivity. The impact on boys and children with the most elevated behavioral problems was stronger, especially in measures of hyperactivity and aggression.
esoterica 7y ago
Most countries with better guaranteed parental leave policies have even worse fertility rates than the US.
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
Experience is part of growth. If you take 9 months off to raise a child, you're not growing your career -- regardless of wether your company or the state or a combination compensates you.
phamilton 7y ago
One big part of this is that even if you have guaranteed maternity pay, it still hurts your career. In a highly competitive environment, I don't see how not working for X amount of time doesn't lead to being X amount of time behind in career growth. The answer is to have less competitive environments. In Sweden, jantelagen (a cultural sentiment that discourages overt personal ambition) is a huge part of what enables generous leave policies.
- solatic 7y ago
  You can't really tell American business culture to be less competitive. You might as well try to get Klingons to be less war-happy. If you're going to try to improve the situation for women, you have to work within the system as it exists. The best hope is improving remote work and improving transportation infrastructure. Women don't have to leave jobs that they can do from home, and client visits are less impactful when they take less time to visit the client and return. It's not a solution which fits nicely into a single bill of legislation to be passed, but it's the groundwork that the US needs to make it happen.
  - blub 7y ago
    Taking care of a kid is a full time job during the first years. Many partly outsource it after year 1. :)
- skookumchuck 7y ago
  As I recall, Sweden has had problems in the past where the ambitious people leave the country.
  - toofy 7y ago
    And yet they’re not tumbling into nothingness, in fact, many reasonable people place Sweden as an amazing place in many metrics, stable in the top 10% for most lists I’ve seen—everything from happiness levels to GDP(PPP). Makes me question whether or not our (USians) shouldn’t push for a cultural change where we don’t worship so heavily at the alter of the hyperambitious.
blub 7y ago
I have several friends which had kids in Germany: * Mothers are protected from firing once they announce the pregnancy. There are still stupid people which fire them and put pressure on them. A friend's boss threw a fit because several of his employees got pregnant and actually said he won't hire women any more. That was likely just blowing off steam, but still. * The mother can take 12 or 24 months off, but gets the same amount in both cases. The pay is capped at 1800 EUR / month, so if she earns well she'll lose a ton of money. * The time off can be shared between parents, but all my acquaintances decided that the father should only take a couple of months off, in order not to lose even more money and affect the careers of both parents. Family doesn't seem to be compatible with the hyper-competitive job market.
- y4mi 7y ago
  > The pay is capped at 1800 EUR / month, so if she earns well she'll lose a ton of money. Uh, I haven't had to use it but from what my siblings told me it's always a massive pay cut. You supposedly get 60% of your normal wage... Capped to 1800€
screye 7y ago
And paternity leave too. Nothing helps a woman reenter the work force better than a husband who can take some time off to take care of the toddler. Reestablishment of traditional family structures where grand parents pitch in as free day care may also have a large positive effect.
burfog 7y ago
In this case, "better" might mean none at all. EU countries with lots of maternity leave are really lacking in children. Without maternity leave, of course there is a disincentive to have any children. Once you do have a child though, you might as well have a bunch of children. You've already blown the career. This probably explains the odd result of countries with more maternity leave having fewer kids. Another factor may be that the cost of maternity leave is passed on to everybody. Depending on legal details this may be via higher taxes, lower pay, and higher prices. It obviously isn't free. People often react to higher costs by having fewer kids. The policy may thus have the opposite of the intended effect.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Paternity leave is really important - some of which should be "must take" as much as a woman "must take" time and the rest can be taken by either parent or both parents can work less than full time. IIRC, paternity leave means women are discriminated against less for taking maternity leave. But it is more than that. Making sure parents can take time off work when their child is sick or they have a meeting with the teacher and things like that are very important. Health care and so on? Important. I'm guessing that where the paid leave comes from is really important as well: It seems that most of this should simply be taxpayer funded so it doesn't actually break a small business. The US medical leave laws exclude small businesses, so these folks can just fire you and besides, there is nothing saying you get paid time off at all. There are probably other things that contribute as well.
rosemary1337 7y ago
Depending on the state you are in, it is also very bad to have wife earn way less than you -- because it almost prompts divorce (salaries get distributed evenly post divorce, or more when children are involved.) Most of my successful male friends ensure they have high-earning (equal ideally) spouses to ensure there isnt a natural setup for divorce. This favors late childbirth amongst the wealthy.
AvocadoPanic 7y ago
Because the countries with more leave have higher fertility rates among their native populations and there's evidence of a dose-response relationship?

yellow_postit 7y ago

Paternity laws as well, though Maternity should come first. It needs to be at the federal or state level.

nradov 7y ago

That would be a good start, but overall I think access to high quality child care is more important than maternity leave.

simonsarris 7y ago
Higher/highest quality child care is not putting your kid in child care at all. I don't know why rich parents would want to risk the long term welfare of their kids so they can work more. Kids that spend lots of time in child care are objectively worse off. https://ifstudies.org/blog/measuring-the-long-term-effects-of-early-extensive-day-care https://ifstudies.org/blog/measuring-the-long-term-effects-o... > Within 10 years, comprehensive analyses of the universal, “$5 per day childcare” program, including its impact on child care use, employment patterns, and children’s and parent outcomes, suggested cause for concern. Social development among children, as indicated by both emotional and behavioral measures, had significantly deteriorated in Quebec, relative to the rest of Canada (10% of a standard deviation lower). Comparisons between children ages 2 to 4 who had been exposed to the program, with older children (and siblings) who had not, revealed significant increases in anxiety, hyperactivity, and aggression in those exposed to the program. And the analyses found more hostile, inconsistent parenting, and lower-quality parental relationships among parents of children exposed to the program. But it was hard to predict whether the negative outcomes identified for 2- to 4-year-olds would persist across their development, or simply dissipate. > Their research confirmed that the negative effects did continue, and in some cases became stronger across development. Among 5 to 9-year-olds, negative social-emotional outcomes not only persisted, but in some cases increased, as indicated by 24% of a standard deviation increase in anxiety, a 19% increase in aggression, and a 13% in hyperactivity. The impact on boys and children with the most elevated behavioral problems was stronger, especially in measures of hyperactivity and aggression.

esoterica 7y ago

Most countries with better guaranteed parental leave policies have even worse fertility rates than the US.

onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago

Experience is part of growth. If you take 9 months off to raise a child, you're not growing your career -- regardless of wether your company or the state or a combination compensates you.

phamilton 7y ago

One big part of this is that even if you have guaranteed maternity pay, it still hurts your career. In a highly competitive environment, I don't see how not working for X amount of time doesn't lead to being X amount of time behind in career growth. The answer is to have less competitive environments. In Sweden, jantelagen (a cultural sentiment that discourages overt personal ambition) is a huge part of what enables generous leave policies.

solatic 7y ago
You can't really tell American business culture to be less competitive. You might as well try to get Klingons to be less war-happy. If you're going to try to improve the situation for women, you have to work within the system as it exists. The best hope is improving remote work and improving transportation infrastructure. Women don't have to leave jobs that they can do from home, and client visits are less impactful when they take less time to visit the client and return. It's not a solution which fits nicely into a single bill of legislation to be passed, but it's the groundwork that the US needs to make it happen.
- blub 7y ago
  Taking care of a kid is a full time job during the first years. Many partly outsource it after year 1. :)
skookumchuck 7y ago
As I recall, Sweden has had problems in the past where the ambitious people leave the country.
- toofy 7y ago
  And yet they’re not tumbling into nothingness, in fact, many reasonable people place Sweden as an amazing place in many metrics, stable in the top 10% for most lists I’ve seen—everything from happiness levels to GDP(PPP). Makes me question whether or not our (USians) shouldn’t push for a cultural change where we don’t worship so heavily at the alter of the hyperambitious.

blub 7y ago

I have several friends which had kids in Germany: * Mothers are protected from firing once they announce the pregnancy. There are still stupid people which fire them and put pressure on them. A friend's boss threw a fit because several of his employees got pregnant and actually said he won't hire women any more. That was likely just blowing off steam, but still. * The mother can take 12 or 24 months off, but gets the same amount in both cases. The pay is capped at 1800 EUR / month, so if she earns well she'll lose a ton of money. * The time off can be shared between parents, but all my acquaintances decided that the father should only take a couple of months off, in order not to lose even more money and affect the careers of both parents. Family doesn't seem to be compatible with the hyper-competitive job market.

y4mi 7y ago
> The pay is capped at 1800 EUR / month, so if she earns well she'll lose a ton of money. Uh, I haven't had to use it but from what my siblings told me it's always a massive pay cut. You supposedly get 60% of your normal wage... Capped to 1800€

screye 7y ago

And paternity leave too. Nothing helps a woman reenter the work force better than a husband who can take some time off to take care of the toddler. Reestablishment of traditional family structures where grand parents pitch in as free day care may also have a large positive effect.

burfog 7y ago

In this case, "better" might mean none at all. EU countries with lots of maternity leave are really lacking in children. Without maternity leave, of course there is a disincentive to have any children. Once you do have a child though, you might as well have a bunch of children. You've already blown the career. This probably explains the odd result of countries with more maternity leave having fewer kids. Another factor may be that the cost of maternity leave is passed on to everybody. Depending on legal details this may be via higher taxes, lower pay, and higher prices. It obviously isn't free. People often react to higher costs by having fewer kids. The policy may thus have the opposite of the intended effect.

Broken_Hippo 7y ago

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Paternity leave is really important - some of which should be "must take" as much as a woman "must take" time and the rest can be taken by either parent or both parents can work less than full time. IIRC, paternity leave means women are discriminated against less for taking maternity leave. But it is more than that. Making sure parents can take time off work when their child is sick or they have a meeting with the teacher and things like that are very important. Health care and so on? Important. I'm guessing that where the paid leave comes from is really important as well: It seems that most of this should simply be taxpayer funded so it doesn't actually break a small business. The US medical leave laws exclude small businesses, so these folks can just fire you and besides, there is nothing saying you get paid time off at all. There are probably other things that contribute as well.

rosemary1337 7y ago

Depending on the state you are in, it is also very bad to have wife earn way less than you -- because it almost prompts divorce (salaries get distributed evenly post divorce, or more when children are involved.) Most of my successful male friends ensure they have high-earning (equal ideally) spouses to ensure there isnt a natural setup for divorce. This favors late childbirth amongst the wealthy.

AvocadoPanic 7y ago

Because the countries with more leave have higher fertility rates among their native populations and there's evidence of a dose-response relationship?