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Thankfully, many if not most top tech companies in the valley realize this and have parallel management and IC tracks (at least for software engineers), with co

Thankfully, many if not most top tech companies in the valley realize this and have parallel management and IC tracks (at least for software engineers), with compensation the same. That said, even as an IC, at higher levels the scope of impact you're expected to deliver at some point exceeds what one person working alone can have, so there's still lots of people leadership skills needed to advance: working cross-functionally and setting direction, communication, and ultimately influencing others to jump onboard and help you out. (Note that this is different from people management -- e.g. formal coaching, performance reviews, dealing with HR/org/budget issues, etc.)

opportune 7y ago
Many in theory have parallel tracks but in practice it seems either the vast majority choose to go into management or that it takes a more exceptional individual to progress in the IC track (my money is on #2). IMO you don’t really need to be an above average person to reach the second layer of management, just put in your time and not fuck up, but everyone I know who hit the same level as IC was exceptionally bright and was like that long before they hit that level
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  In my company it's certainly the case that in order to progress on the technical track you need to be extremely good and more importantly on the right projects. I see a lot of mediocre people advance on the management track but only very few advance above a certain level on the technical track. Considering that salary is directly tied to a person's rank I think it's a very rational decision to go into management even if that's not your inclination.
  - twblalock 7y ago
    This really depends on the company. I know senior ICs who make a bit more money than the managers they report to.
    - opportune 7y ago
      But my guess is that in 5 years their manager will be making more than the senior IC
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      As a manager, this is fine. It’s not my money :P
m0zg 7y ago
It's _vastly_ harder to get ahead on the "engineering" track. At Google, for instance, it's to the point where as a manager you barely need to have a pulse to get promoted (as long as your reports are any good), whereas on the technical ladder promotions to Staff level and above are stupid hard and downright nondeterministic. That's why many engineers there, who have little to no leadership skills or inclinations, end up being managers: it's simply much easier to get ahead on the management track, comparatively speaking. There are simply a lot more senior managers than there are comparatively senior (by comp, the only metric that really matters) engineers, and you aren't competing against as strong a set of peers.
- Bahamut 7y ago
  This is also true of my own employer (a fellow FAANG) - the technical track is incredibly hard to advance in past senior, it seems to incentivize devs moving into management, along with the pay differential where even in the same tier, management makes a little more in general by a couple of $10k. I very much enjoy being a dev and am a top performing one in my VP’s org, but the structure incentivizes me to switch over to the management track, which I’d be happy to do (I have prior experience as one), but it seems like a crappy way to depress salaries of ICs that they are forced to switch companies to move up to where they should be.
- democracy 7y ago
  Google aside there is nothing worse than getting stuck at middle management in a software corp after 40 - 50. You are expensive, replacable and disposable.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    Or before 40 for that matter. Middle management is miserable existence. That's probably why they get paid so well, to dull pain a little. :-)
  - blub 7y ago
    Oddly enough I've never seen managers complain about ageism or the difficulty of finding jobs later in life, but it seems to be rather common around here. So maybe there is something worse: bring stuck as a developer after 40-50.
jmchuster 7y ago
The following three are independent yet often conflated - management, leadership, and mentorship.
badfrog 7y ago
> That said, even as an IC, at higher levels the scope of impact you're expected to deliver at some point exceeds what one person working alone can have, so there's still lots of people leadership skills needed to advance: working cross-functionally and setting direction, communication, and ultimately influencing others to jump onboard and help you out. Yep, by L6 you're probably spending less than half your time coding even on the IC track.

opportune 7y ago

Many in theory have parallel tracks but in practice it seems either the vast majority choose to go into management or that it takes a more exceptional individual to progress in the IC track (my money is on #2). IMO you don’t really need to be an above average person to reach the second layer of management, just put in your time and not fuck up, but everyone I know who hit the same level as IC was exceptionally bright and was like that long before they hit that level

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
maxxxxx 7y ago
In my company it's certainly the case that in order to progress on the technical track you need to be extremely good and more importantly on the right projects. I see a lot of mediocre people advance on the management track but only very few advance above a certain level on the technical track. Considering that salary is directly tied to a person's rank I think it's a very rational decision to go into management even if that's not your inclination.
- twblalock 7y ago
  This really depends on the company. I know senior ICs who make a bit more money than the managers they report to.
  - opportune 7y ago
    But my guess is that in 5 years their manager will be making more than the senior IC
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    As a manager, this is fine. It’s not my money :P

m0zg 7y ago

It's _vastly_ harder to get ahead on the "engineering" track. At Google, for instance, it's to the point where as a manager you barely need to have a pulse to get promoted (as long as your reports are any good), whereas on the technical ladder promotions to Staff level and above are stupid hard and downright nondeterministic. That's why many engineers there, who have little to no leadership skills or inclinations, end up being managers: it's simply much easier to get ahead on the management track, comparatively speaking. There are simply a lot more senior managers than there are comparatively senior (by comp, the only metric that really matters) engineers, and you aren't competing against as strong a set of peers.

Bahamut 7y ago
This is also true of my own employer (a fellow FAANG) - the technical track is incredibly hard to advance in past senior, it seems to incentivize devs moving into management, along with the pay differential where even in the same tier, management makes a little more in general by a couple of $10k. I very much enjoy being a dev and am a top performing one in my VP’s org, but the structure incentivizes me to switch over to the management track, which I’d be happy to do (I have prior experience as one), but it seems like a crappy way to depress salaries of ICs that they are forced to switch companies to move up to where they should be.
democracy 7y ago
Google aside there is nothing worse than getting stuck at middle management in a software corp after 40 - 50. You are expensive, replacable and disposable.
- m0zg 7y ago
  Or before 40 for that matter. Middle management is miserable existence. That's probably why they get paid so well, to dull pain a little. :-)
- blub 7y ago
  Oddly enough I've never seen managers complain about ageism or the difficulty of finding jobs later in life, but it seems to be rather common around here. So maybe there is something worse: bring stuck as a developer after 40-50.

jmchuster 7y ago

The following three are independent yet often conflated - management, leadership, and mentorship.

badfrog 7y ago

> That said, even as an IC, at higher levels the scope of impact you're expected to deliver at some point exceeds what one person working alone can have, so there's still lots of people leadership skills needed to advance: working cross-functionally and setting direction, communication, and ultimately influencing others to jump onboard and help you out. Yep, by L6 you're probably spending less than half your time coding even on the IC track.