5 ms·

The Airbnb Invasion of Barcelona

72 points by pingou 7y ago

ng12 7y ago
Isn't the problem that running an AirBnB is more profitable than traditional real estate? I've seen a dozen variations of this article and it's always the same story: people want cheap rent, access to tourism dollars, and to preserve the "feeling" of their city. You can't have all three.
- JetSpiegel 7y ago
  > Isn't the problem that running an AirBnB is more profitable than traditional real estate? Only because it's a tax dodge.
- DoingIsLearning 7y ago
  > people want cheap rent, access to tourism dollars, and to preserve the "feeling" of their city. The people that want 'tourism dollars' are not the same as those who want affordable rent in the city they were born and raised. The key issue (at least in Europe) is that Airbnb has reduced the access barrier of landlords to a tax avoindance revenue stream. If you are sharing a room in your house in the summer that's a side gig. If you are buying flats left and right and giving them to an agent to manage you Airbnb reservations then that is just a Hotel without the regulations and upfront costs and taxes that should come with it.
  - charlesdm 7y ago
    On the flipside, the city of Barcelona is no longer handing out tourist licenses to property owners, even if they want to run a licensed rental apartment. A tourist license could be had for a one time €200 fee before, and apartments with these licenses are actually often 20 to 30% higher in purchase price than those without. Hotels are also actively lobbying against the further handing out of these licenses (because Airbnb rental apartments tend to be much better value for money -- even if you run everything legally and by the book). There are always two sides to a story.
  - geezerjay 7y ago
    > The key issue (at least in Europe) is that Airbnb has reduced the access barrier of landlords to a tax avoindance revenue stream. This baseless assertion is patently false. AirBnB is only a middlemen in a business that's heavily legislated and monitored by both law enforcement and pressure groups. Local governments award and manage permits for local housing which are based on quotas, and in some jurisdictions actually force tax rates close to 30%.
warp_factor 7y ago
the biggest issue I see with Airbnb is that it favors a small subset of tenants and makes it worse for pretty much everyone else. Running an Airbnb is insanely profitable for the tenant and it is pretty much hell for everyone else living next to it. Ask neighbours of Airbnbs, they will all complain that it brings a lot of noise, people partying in the middle of the night etc. My solution to this is that the cities should tax Airbnbs at a very high level. Probably upwards of 50%. There is a reason why hotels are built in specific places in cities, and why they have a frontdesks etc.
- DoingIsLearning 7y ago
  I would argue the problem (at least in Europe) would go away if you were only allowed to list rooms in the house you are actually living in (which I think was the original motivation behind Airbnb).
  - distances 7y ago
    Indeed. Full-time AirBnb rentals should of course be regarded as hotels, with associated regulations and zoning requirements. It's a bit baffling to me why cities aren't doing this.
    - pintxo 7y ago
      Berlin does it. On paper. You need a permit, which you are unlikely to get to rent out a complete apartment (or more then 50% of your place). The same law also states that a flat cannot go unrented for longer than 3 months. You would also need a permit here. As far as I understood it, the problem here is enforcement/execution, which is basically Berlins root problem.
      - DoingIsLearning 7y ago
        But if Airbnb was serious about sustainability and respecting local law they would either ban whole house listings or request proof of said permit in Berlin. Even if they were motivated to do this, it would simply wipe out a very large percentage of rooms available which would make zero business sense for airbnb. This is again more evidence of the lack of sustainability of their business model in the current form factor.
manfredo 7y ago
If Airbnb is so popular it demonstrates either there is a significant demand for travel lodging that is not being met, or significant inefficiencies in the traditional hotel market that is making Airbnb so much more competitive. Probably a bit of both, but maybe more of the latter. In theory, hotels should have a significant advantage over Airbnb. They can leverage economies of scale and are usually located in more tourist oriented areas of the city. I think the issue was that sort of like taxis hotels operated in a closed market and were competing against other hotels - sure motels existed but they were on the total other end of the cost-quality spectrum. They invested in fancy bars, and other stuff most people don't care about. Then, Airbnb comes along and now you could pay a fraction of the cost of a hotel and have much better lodgings. It's worth scrutiny to see what percentage of Airbnb listings are operated full time vs. actually operating them in a sharing-econony fashion. But at a fundamental level, if Airbnb is growing so much we also need to examine why standard hotels aren't working.
- jseliger 7y ago
  If only there were some way, some method, some technology, of increasing a given number of housing (or hotel) units on a given space; if that kind of technology existed, we could likely ameliorate all housing and hotel shortages. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-14/california-affordable-housing-is-no-mystery-just-build-more https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-14/califo... Such a dream will likely have to remain deferred, however, because obviously no such technologies exist.
  - Tempest1981 7y ago
    Builders in San Jose are saying that it's hard to make a profit, due to high materials and labor costs. They can't get construction loans, even for market-rate units.
- ranbumo 7y ago
  I wonder whether demand in a city like Barcelona can ever be met without compromising it as a city and zoning a lot of the city centre for hotel usage .. Or whether there's a good alternative to just outright banning Airbnb when rent increases so much that locals can't afford to live in most of the city anymore.
Scoundreller 7y ago
As a recent booker of rooms in Barcelona, I found hotels to be a lot cheaper and better situated. And obviously without the risk of a last-minute cancellation, a particular worry if you have flight/train bookings in/out. Maybe travellers to Barcelona are a little too confident in Airbnb and don't consider the alternatives? But if you're a group of 5-8, or an extended stay, I could see how Airbnb could become cheaper.
- devoply 7y ago
  Regardless, competition is good for consumers whether hotels are a better option or not... Keeps everyone honest, helps keep prices in check.
  - sieabahlpark 7y ago
    Except hotels are regulated and Airbnb isn't, so there isn't a 1 to 1 comparison in price
    - geezerjay 7y ago
      Actually, airbnb offerings are indeed tightly regulated and heavily taxed in some jurisdictions. AirBnB didn't invented short-term rentals, nor does the company offer any servicd other than serving as a specialized POS for short-term rentals.
Scoundreller 7y ago
> The growth of Airbnb and the rise of such budget airlines as Ryanair have coincided with Barcelona’s increasing popularity. It's a little unfair to point the blame solely at Ryanir. The Spanish flagship airline, Iberia, also has a low-cost wing: Vueling, based in Barcelona and established in 2004.
- fyfy18 7y ago
  Low cost airlines have been big in Europe for at least 10 years before Airbnb started to become common around here. Before Airbnb, budget travellers would usually stay in hostels as hotels usually catered to business travelers so were much more expensive. Hostels only really became popular due to Hostel World so maybe they should take the blame :D
jdeibele 7y ago
We're a family of 5 with 3 teenagers. When traveling with kids, we've found it nice to stay in apartments so that we can cook, do laundry, etc. In the US, we've also found that extended stay hotels work well. They tend to have a lot more room, a kitchen, etc. We've had problems booking hotels in Europe because Expedia or Booking.com will say one thing (5 in a room? No problem!) and when we arrive the hotel thinks it's a big problem (only 4 to a room, you must rent another room).
hammock 7y ago
Does Loquo still exist? I used that probably 10 years ago to find a short term rental in Barcelona. It was/is the Spanish equivalent of Craigslist, which wasn't popular in Spain at the time.

72 points by pingou 7y ago

ng12 7y ago

Isn't the problem that running an AirBnB is more profitable than traditional real estate? I've seen a dozen variations of this article and it's always the same story: people want cheap rent, access to tourism dollars, and to preserve the "feeling" of their city. You can't have all three.

JetSpiegel 7y ago
> Isn't the problem that running an AirBnB is more profitable than traditional real estate? Only because it's a tax dodge.
DoingIsLearning 7y ago
> people want cheap rent, access to tourism dollars, and to preserve the "feeling" of their city. The people that want 'tourism dollars' are not the same as those who want affordable rent in the city they were born and raised. The key issue (at least in Europe) is that Airbnb has reduced the access barrier of landlords to a tax avoindance revenue stream. If you are sharing a room in your house in the summer that's a side gig. If you are buying flats left and right and giving them to an agent to manage you Airbnb reservations then that is just a Hotel without the regulations and upfront costs and taxes that should come with it.
- charlesdm 7y ago
  On the flipside, the city of Barcelona is no longer handing out tourist licenses to property owners, even if they want to run a licensed rental apartment. A tourist license could be had for a one time €200 fee before, and apartments with these licenses are actually often 20 to 30% higher in purchase price than those without. Hotels are also actively lobbying against the further handing out of these licenses (because Airbnb rental apartments tend to be much better value for money -- even if you run everything legally and by the book). There are always two sides to a story.
- geezerjay 7y ago
  > The key issue (at least in Europe) is that Airbnb has reduced the access barrier of landlords to a tax avoindance revenue stream. This baseless assertion is patently false. AirBnB is only a middlemen in a business that's heavily legislated and monitored by both law enforcement and pressure groups. Local governments award and manage permits for local housing which are based on quotas, and in some jurisdictions actually force tax rates close to 30%.

warp_factor 7y ago

the biggest issue I see with Airbnb is that it favors a small subset of tenants and makes it worse for pretty much everyone else. Running an Airbnb is insanely profitable for the tenant and it is pretty much hell for everyone else living next to it. Ask neighbours of Airbnbs, they will all complain that it brings a lot of noise, people partying in the middle of the night etc. My solution to this is that the cities should tax Airbnbs at a very high level. Probably upwards of 50%. There is a reason why hotels are built in specific places in cities, and why they have a frontdesks etc.

DoingIsLearning 7y ago
I would argue the problem (at least in Europe) would go away if you were only allowed to list rooms in the house you are actually living in (which I think was the original motivation behind Airbnb).
- distances 7y ago
  Indeed. Full-time AirBnb rentals should of course be regarded as hotels, with associated regulations and zoning requirements. It's a bit baffling to me why cities aren't doing this.
  - pintxo 7y ago
    Berlin does it. On paper. You need a permit, which you are unlikely to get to rent out a complete apartment (or more then 50% of your place). The same law also states that a flat cannot go unrented for longer than 3 months. You would also need a permit here. As far as I understood it, the problem here is enforcement/execution, which is basically Berlins root problem.
    - DoingIsLearning 7y ago
      But if Airbnb was serious about sustainability and respecting local law they would either ban whole house listings or request proof of said permit in Berlin. Even if they were motivated to do this, it would simply wipe out a very large percentage of rooms available which would make zero business sense for airbnb. This is again more evidence of the lack of sustainability of their business model in the current form factor.

manfredo 7y ago

If Airbnb is so popular it demonstrates either there is a significant demand for travel lodging that is not being met, or significant inefficiencies in the traditional hotel market that is making Airbnb so much more competitive. Probably a bit of both, but maybe more of the latter. In theory, hotels should have a significant advantage over Airbnb. They can leverage economies of scale and are usually located in more tourist oriented areas of the city. I think the issue was that sort of like taxis hotels operated in a closed market and were competing against other hotels - sure motels existed but they were on the total other end of the cost-quality spectrum. They invested in fancy bars, and other stuff most people don't care about. Then, Airbnb comes along and now you could pay a fraction of the cost of a hotel and have much better lodgings. It's worth scrutiny to see what percentage of Airbnb listings are operated full time vs. actually operating them in a sharing-econony fashion. But at a fundamental level, if Airbnb is growing so much we also need to examine why standard hotels aren't working.

jseliger 7y ago
If only there were some way, some method, some technology, of increasing a given number of housing (or hotel) units on a given space; if that kind of technology existed, we could likely ameliorate all housing and hotel shortages. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-14/california-affordable-housing-is-no-mystery-just-build-more https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-14/califo... Such a dream will likely have to remain deferred, however, because obviously no such technologies exist.
- Tempest1981 7y ago
  Builders in San Jose are saying that it's hard to make a profit, due to high materials and labor costs. They can't get construction loans, even for market-rate units.
ranbumo 7y ago
I wonder whether demand in a city like Barcelona can ever be met without compromising it as a city and zoning a lot of the city centre for hotel usage .. Or whether there's a good alternative to just outright banning Airbnb when rent increases so much that locals can't afford to live in most of the city anymore.

Scoundreller 7y ago

As a recent booker of rooms in Barcelona, I found hotels to be a lot cheaper and better situated. And obviously without the risk of a last-minute cancellation, a particular worry if you have flight/train bookings in/out. Maybe travellers to Barcelona are a little too confident in Airbnb and don't consider the alternatives? But if you're a group of 5-8, or an extended stay, I could see how Airbnb could become cheaper.

devoply 7y ago
Regardless, competition is good for consumers whether hotels are a better option or not... Keeps everyone honest, helps keep prices in check.
- sieabahlpark 7y ago
  Except hotels are regulated and Airbnb isn't, so there isn't a 1 to 1 comparison in price
  - geezerjay 7y ago
    Actually, airbnb offerings are indeed tightly regulated and heavily taxed in some jurisdictions. AirBnB didn't invented short-term rentals, nor does the company offer any servicd other than serving as a specialized POS for short-term rentals.

Scoundreller 7y ago

> The growth of Airbnb and the rise of such budget airlines as Ryanair have coincided with Barcelona’s increasing popularity. It's a little unfair to point the blame solely at Ryanir. The Spanish flagship airline, Iberia, also has a low-cost wing: Vueling, based in Barcelona and established in 2004.

fyfy18 7y ago
Low cost airlines have been big in Europe for at least 10 years before Airbnb started to become common around here. Before Airbnb, budget travellers would usually stay in hostels as hotels usually catered to business travelers so were much more expensive. Hostels only really became popular due to Hostel World so maybe they should take the blame :D

jdeibele 7y ago

We're a family of 5 with 3 teenagers. When traveling with kids, we've found it nice to stay in apartments so that we can cook, do laundry, etc. In the US, we've also found that extended stay hotels work well. They tend to have a lot more room, a kitchen, etc. We've had problems booking hotels in Europe because Expedia or Booking.com will say one thing (5 in a room? No problem!) and when we arrive the hotel thinks it's a big problem (only 4 to a room, you must rent another room).

hammock 7y ago

Does Loquo still exist? I used that probably 10 years ago to find a short term rental in Barcelona. It was/is the Spanish equivalent of Craigslist, which wasn't popular in Spain at the time.