7 ms·
Boeing may be now well and truly fucked
- mimixco 7y agoConsumer confidence in the DC-10 disappeared after its closely-spaced and related fatal crashes. This led to the plane being relegated to cargo duties and, eventually, to McDonnell Douglas's financial failure and sale to Boeing. The TL;DR? If people don't want to fly the MAX, there's nothing Boeing can do to fix it. They're better off abandoning the design and doing the clean sheet plane they should have done from the beginning.
- flowersjeff 7y agoDon't know why you're getting the downvotes. Thanks for the TL;DR - as the site didn't work for me. Also, the analysis is spot on.
- mimixco 7y agoHere's Nader's original: https://nader.org/2019/04/04/boeings-homicide-will-give-way-to-safety-reforms-if-flyers-organize/ https://nader.org/2019/04/04/boeings-homicide-will-give-way-...
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- philjohn 7y agohttp://web.archive.org/web/20190426150157/http://havecoffeewillwrite.com/?p=67929 http://web.archive.org/web/20190426150157/http://havecoffeew...
- skybrian 7y agoI've read elsewhere that there aren't a whole lot of choices since competitors have limited capacity to ramp up? Also, some choices are also built by Boeing. (Such as other 737's.)
- vkou 7y agoOther 737s aren't inheritantly unstable airframes that need software hacks to keep them flying. Mind you, the entire MCAS issue would be mitigated, if the plane were re-certified.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoThe MAX8 is only really unstable in one specific set of circumstances where every other 737 would be stable. It doesn't need MCAS to be safe let alone fly. It needs MCAS so that pilots don't need to be trained (expensive) on the differences between the MAX8 and every other 737.
- vkou 7y agoThat one specific set of circumstances is that when the plane starts stalling during take-off, it wants to stall more. Pilots need to be trained on that difference, because even with the software patches, MCAS will not correctly operate all the time.
- Aloha 7y agoThat's not really accurate - the DC-10 was moved out of passenger operations because of operating costs - TriJets (DC-10/MD-11/L-1011) soldiered on in passenger roles until the mid-90's when better fuel performance from twin-jets and natural age based attrition moved them into freight roles.
- philjohn 7y agoETOPS allowing dual engined aircraft to do routes that previously needed >2 engines sealed their fate.
- crgwbr 7y agoUnfortunately, from what I understand, it’s more like MCD bought Boeing with Boeing’s money. Officially, Boeing bought MCD, but MCD executives, leadership, and design process replaced a lot of their Boeing redundancies.
- icodemuch 7y agoSite doesn't work for me
- blarg1 7y ago> Using only one operating sensor (Airbus A320neo has three sensors) I thought the boeing plane only needed the system because their engines were positioned so far forward, and that the airbus plane didn't have that problem, so shouldn't airbus not need the stall system?
- _fizz_buzz_ 7y agoMany planes have angle of attack sensors. Normally it is just a warning system. Boeing used theirs as input for their control loop of the MCAS system.
- cptskippy 7y agoAnd most have redundant systems.
- treis 7y agoAirbus and Boeing take different approaches towards flight control. Airbus will override pilot inputs to keep the plane from stalling or otherwise flying out of the envelope. Boeing allows pilots to override the plane even if the plane thinks it's a dangerous maneuver. Airbus's system needs to be more reliable since a malfunctioning sensor will cause the plane to crash itself.
- jarfil 7y agoWasn't the problem that Boeing requires pilots to keep overriding the system in the case of a failure, while not training them to do so, or even mentioning the fact in the documentation?
- treis 7y agoYes, but the theory was that since the pilot could override the system it was less critical compared with Airbus where the systems controlled by the sensors are considered critical for flight. That's why Boeing used 1 while Airbus uses 3.
- 7y ago
- atonse 7y agoI've gone from admiring Boeing all my life to completely not trusting anything today's Boeing says after this scandal. It's very likely that they are overrun by a bunch of MBA-ridden suits rather than engineers (not claiming all engineers are benevolent but that cultural shift always results in an erosion of quality), like most companies of its type. And no good decisions will be made. I have always said (although without any supporting data), that the safest time to fly is probably after a plane crash because most airlines are probably double and triple checking their planes to be safe. But that's not true of the 737-MAX. You can't fix what they've screwed up. Because the fundamental design change was borne out of greed, and not good engineering. I'll continue to avoid the 737-MAX like I'm sure many others will.
- Aloha 7y agothe 737max is not really any more unsafe than any other fly-by-wire aircraft - aerodynamically unstable aircraft are not really unusual, and this one isnt even really unstable in 99% of its flight envelope, just one specific place - and its not even unstable, it just handles differently than other 737's. I agree with you, Boeing should have done a clean sheet redesign of the aircraft for this segment, not patch up the 737 for another decade of production - but I cant really tell them the reasons they made this choice are bad - airlines like and want more 737's, a completely new type creates a bunch of extra costs on all parts - so a choice was made, and now Boeing will live with the consequences.
- hackandtrip 7y agoWe all will avoid the 373 MAX luckily, because it's blocked by every Airline right now.
- agumonkey 7y agoIt's crazy how anything in the universe grows and decays.. even when said thing is somehow sentient and knows about this
- GiorgioG 7y agoI don't care what Boeing does, I won't fly the Max going forward unless it gets a triple-redundant redesign for MCAS. Yep, triple-redundant can also fail, but I expect Boeing to over-design the fix to raise consumer confidence.
- evmar 7y agoThis is just a copy-paste of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758373 (which is the original source and on a site that isn't down)
- yread 7y agoBoeing still has Outperform rating from Leeham and others. It will be interesting who will be right: random bloggers or financial "analysts" https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/24/initial-analyst-reaction-to-boeing-1q-earnings/ https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/24/initial-analyst-reaction-t...
- peteretep 7y agoThe entire article is blogspam for this article: https://nader.org/2019/04/04/boeings-homicide-will-give-way-to-safety-reforms-if-flyers-organize/ https://nader.org/2019/04/04/boeings-homicide-will-give-way-...