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I see this trend continuing for Tesla. Aside from Musk's leadership, which is very polarizing, I don't see their cars as being very compelling compared to the
by DamnYuppie 8y ago
I see this trend continuing for Tesla. Aside from Musk's leadership, which is very polarizing, I don't see their cars as being very compelling compared to the upcoming offerings of Audi and Porsche.
Tesla isn't really competing against Ford/Chevy/Honda/Toyota. Instead they are competing against BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/Audi. By comparison Teslas seems like a toy compared to those other brands so I will gladly wait and give either Audi/BMW/Porsche my money as I know what type of support I will get from each.
- danappelxx 8y agoThe profit margin is a lot thicker in the luxury car market. It's a lot harder for Tesla to compete with economy vehicles produced by Ford/Chevy/Honda/Toyota since they have established production lines and can out-produce and out-price Tesla.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago> economy vehicles produced by Ford/Chevy/Honda/Toyota since they have established production lines and can out-produce and out-price Tesla. Who do not pay for the lifetime externalities of each of their vehicles burning petroleum for hundreds of thousands of miles. If you accept climate change is man made, and that combustion vehicles contribute to it, it is insane we don’t make internal combustion vehicles pay for their externalities as part of their cost to level the playing field, and force electric vehicle manufacturers to compete against them without such a handicap in place.
- logicx24 8y agoIn one sense, electric vehicle manufacturers are getting a bonus via the tax credit.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoA woefully inadequate subsidy, which phases out entirely too soon.
- maxerickson 8y agoAre vehicles subsidies the best way to drive progress on battery density and cost? They need to be if you are going to use them to reward wealthy Tesla investors and vehicle buyers.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoYes. Increase them, and tax SUVs and pickup trucks to fund the subsidy. Regressive taxes are bad, but you aren’t entitled to drive a gas guzzler, merely access to wheels (hybrids, subcompacts, sedans, etc). Internalize the externalities.
- bumby 8y agoI'm not necessarily against that approach, but the penalties should be for externalities beyond just the tailpipe. Anything else is just short sighted. This means counting counting environmental impacts for manufacturing, including batteries
- ajmurmann 8y agoLet's not forget building the massive amount of roads we built for any type of car.
- maxerickson 8y agoLincoln/Cadillac/Acura/Lexus...
- pasiaj 8y agoThe trade-in value of Tesla is very low in Finland. If you want to upgrade your model, Tesla has been offering 70-80k € trade-in value for a 6 month old 135k€ Model S. This means that those who upgrade their vehicles often will not even consider a Tesla. In Finland, at least, they are forefeiting one of the biggest groups of luxury car buyers.
- ajmurmann 8y agoThe most surprising thing about your post to me is the price of a new Model S. That's $150k. Is the price so high because it includes VAT?
- selectodude 8y agoYou can option up a Tesla Model S in the US to $150k.
- goshx 8y agoNot anymore. It’s $131k fully loaded.
- kylecordes 8y agoAlthough the price point is still quite high, Tesla seems to be thinking of a car as a consumer electronic item: Price generally falls (more value per dollar) every year. This may have significant consequences to the industry, if Tesla doesn’t fail.
- arebop 8y agoA fully-loaded S in the U.S. is $131k so $150k could possibly even be a little low to include Finnish VAT.
- astrodust 8y agoIt's even harder to compete when their production line is such a shambles. They tried to automate everything, which cost a fortune, and utterly failed at it because it turns out it's both stupidly hard and ridiculously expensive. They were the first mover, and as is the case with racing, being first means others can draft and pass you.
- cmer 8y agoI think pretty much every single person who owns a Model S/X would tell you that they're never going back to the old German crew. Tesla enjoys the strongest brand loyalty of any car manufacturer. Apple-like loyalty. Tesla doesn't feel like a toy, it feels like the future. They're years ahead of everybody else in terms of tech that is usable today.
- epistasis 8y agoI've never been super convinced by Tesla even after test driving, and was fairly happy with my German made car. But I had to make a change recently for a family-friendlier car and wanted electric now so got a Model 3. Now, I'm fully convinced by Tesla in every way and am never ever going back to dealerships. The car, the service, the people, all of it is on a whole higher plane of satisfaction. It feels like the transition from a flip phone to an iPhone in 2008. So I guess I'm one of those insane Tesla fans now :-/
- moduspol 8y ago> The car, the service, the people, all of it is on a whole higher plane of satisfaction. It feels like the transition from a flip phone to an iPhone in 2008. Same here. This is how I describe it to other people.
- sheeshkebab 8y agoI’m using cars to move me and family from point a to b, the less of service and Tesla people I ever see, the better - and if I ever need to get those things, the faster they get the parts and fix it, the happier I am, as most other car owners I’m sure. In other words, I don’t get the whole Tesla club thing for basically a glorified metal bucket. Although for some odd reason I do want Tesla to be my next car.
- moduspol 8y agoI get what you're saying, but there is a measurable quality of life increase over an A to B gas-powered car. * No oil changes * Charge at home, wake up every morning to a "full tank" for a lot less than it'd cost to fill up with gas * No gas station fill-ups * Autopilot is huge for quality of life on highways and in bumper-to-bumper traffic * I keep the valet key card in my wallet, but there's no physical key that you need to keep with you. My car key was the last one I really needed, so I no longer carry physical keys * The car has an API, so you can use it to automate various actions (like to start the HVAC system if the car is at work and it's 4:30pm on a weekday). With my normal schedule, the car is already pre-warmed/cooled any time I get in it * Built-in dashcam includes side cameras, and sentry mode * Summon, and (soon) enhanced summon None of that helps if you're driving a loaner while you're waiting for parts, but it's tough to quantitatively measure the impact of just having things like this. And I've got more faith in Tesla to improve logistics in parts sourcing than traditional automakers becoming more like Tesla.
- slg 8y agoIs there any Audi, Porsche, or BMW on the horizon that will be close to competing on price with the Model 3? They all seem to be targeting the Model S/X market and Tesla's results seem to be showing that market is shrinking.
- sliken 8y agoI agree, but from what I can tell the Audi, Porsche, and BMW are targeting where the model S was... not where it is today. I.e. range in the 200-260 miles, not 370. Seems likely by the time any of the competition is shipping in reasonable numbers (already hearing complaints of limited battery supply from the German companies) there's likely to be a model S with the improve battery pack based on the same tech as the model 3.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mamon 8y agoIt seems that beating Tesla in range game is quite easy[1] I think BMW or Audi don't do that simply because they do not care enough - they optimize for different use case, i.e. daily commute, not 1500 miles road trips. [1] https://electrek.co/2018/09/07/bmw-i3-100-kwh-battery-pack-lion-smart/ https://electrek.co/2018/09/07/bmw-i3-100-kwh-battery-pack-l...
- sliken 8y agoNot sure how much faith I have in a 3rd party modified i3 that has a claimed (but untested) range of 435 miles. After all you can take a regular Tesla model 3 and drive 1000km if you are hyper miling. The main problem is unlike ICE cars that generally have so much wasted energy that temperature, speed, terrain, and driving style do not have a particularly large impact on range. In comparison electric cars are so efficient that elevation changes, cold temperatures, and running the AC or heater can make big differences. In particular speed can make a huge difference. A model 3 with a 300 or so mile range can go over 600 miles when hyper miling. To help with that the community consensus is to take all range estimates with a grain of salt until you see the EPA range. Said claimed 435 mile range was not tested by the EPA. Keep in mind that the battery packs Audi e-tron is using is as almost the same size (95 kw vs 100 kw), but is providing radically less range (208 miles vs 370). So clearly the Tesla is crazy more efficient. Given the expense and weight of the batteries, clearly Audi would have made a more efficient car... if they could.
- Geee 8y agoTesla is years ahead and is innovating faster, so how can they catch it? For example Audi E-tron has just 200 miles of range vs. the new Model S with 370 miles with a same size battery.
- freerobby 8y ago> Tesla is [...] innovating faster This is the point that so many people miss when arguing that an EV revolution is coming and others will catch Tesla. It's not that Tesla's lead is insurmountable; it's that Tesla's lead is growing, not shrinking, with each passing day. No single feature or technology tells this story adequately but the compound effect of all of them does: it's 2019, and not a single manufacturer can produce a car that rivals a 2012 Model S.
- agumonkey 8y agogrowing if they can keep funding coming, otherwise they might choke
- treis 8y ago>This is the point that so many people miss when arguing that an EV revolution is coming and others will catch Tesla. It's not that Tesla's lead is insurmountable; it's that Tesla's lead is growing, not shrinking, with each passing day. Eventually you reach a point where everything is good enough so being better isn't much of an advantage. Like if Tesla gives you 700 mi range but Audi does 500mi, does anyone really care?
- aaomidi 8y agoThat eventually is a long time away. For now though, Tesla is ahead of the game. It's like the only car that actually gives you new features after buying it. Listens to their consumers, and provides them with what they want (most of the time)
- moduspol 8y ago> Like if Tesla gives you 700 mi range but Audi does 500mi, does anyone really care? In this case, yes, because current battery tech charges much faster from 0-80% of the battery, so a battery with more range than you'll use is still beneficial because it'll charge faster for the portion you do use. But I'm being snarky--that's not your point. Tesla's advantage is far more than just range. * The battery management system, which minimizes battery degradation (google "nissan leaf degradation") * The manufacturing process adopted to actual EVs (and not shoehorning an EV into an ICE car design) * The lack of dealerships and resulting ability to push software updates to cars containing new features * The standardization of self-driving hardware -- all Teslas made since ~2016 have the camera hardware set up in the same positions * The actual ownership of the software / UI and it actually being done well, when most other manufacturers seem to be shooting for "passable, I guess" * The big touchscreen UI, which is (effectively) the same across all models, which makes keeping software up-to-date much easier It's just not even close. Other manufacturers can improve battery tech, too, but these other things require bold action that traditional manufacturers are too slow / cautious / encumbered to take.
- baby 8y agoyour comment makes no sense to me as I live surrounded by teslas (in the bay). I also know an increasing amount of people (including me) who gives no fuck about cars, and yet would be into having a Tesla if they had a driver license.
- double0jimb0 8y agoHave you shopped for a car lately? What you get for your money: 20k-40k: Plastic 40k-75k: Plastic painted to look like metal and wood veneers 75k+: Maybe metal and real wood This refers to everything you touch and see in and outside the car. US manufactures aren’t in the 75K+ market for sedans, US mfgs only know plastic. For the Germans, you need to be in flagship cars to get away from metalized plastic (A7/A8, S-class, 7-series). Porsche is a safe bet for real materials. Tesla replaced everything inside the car with a giant, great looking screen. 90% of the “value engineering” by which existing car makers use to differentiate between their Low and high end cars... Tesla just got rid of it. Tesla has no intention on playing in the “value engineering” traditional mfgs have been doing for decades (it was the only innovation game left to play). Tesla instead is competing with tech and features they can literally upload to your car overnight. There is no comparison to traditional autos. Tesla is an iPhone moment for car industry (if they can manage to deliver the quality and experience they promise without going out of business).
- antocv 8y agoWhy do materials inside a car matter? What difference does having mahogny or walnut wood on the interior vs plastic make?
- goshx 8y agoDo you have any first hand experience with a Tesla? I have a theory that people who say things like this don’t. I used to drive a more expensive BMW than the Model 3 I have now. To say that the Model 3 is the toy, it’s absurd at best. It is so much better in terms of technology, handling, efficiency, maintenance, cost of ownership, performance, etc. that it makes comments like yours really sound completely uninformed.
- sliken 8y agoTesla Model S range 100 kwh battery = 370 miles. Audi E-tron 95 kWh battery = 208 miles. Audi has a fair bit of catching up to do.
- dayaz36 8y agoI feel sorry for anyone dumb enough to believe your garbage propaganda against Tesla.
- dang 8y agoPersonal attacks will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow those rules when posting, regardless of how wrong another comment is or you feel it is.
- whttheuuu 8y agoI assume you've never test driven or owned a Tesla. Once you do, you'll see the light!