12 ms·

NSA Recommends Dropping Phone-Surveillance Program

185 points by bonyt 7y ago

deytempo 7y ago
They already have enough data to build the rest of it
tracker1 7y ago
But think of the ter'rists, aliens and children!! /s Seriously though, it's probably a good thing overall and I can't believe how much data has been collected for dubious security value and exponential risk of abuse.
9935c101ab17a66 7y ago
Just an FYI to people trying to view this article, the usual tricks like facebook outlinking, using outline.com and setting google as a referrer didn't work to circumvent the paywall. But I did manage to view the article by changing my user-agent to Safari - iOS. Dunno why it works but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. EDIT: I take it back. This briefly worked, but doesn't anymore. I have no idea what changed. Sorry peeps.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Amusingly, I got a paywall in Safari on iOS.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 7y ago
    It's super weird, this only worked for me once? It no longer does.
- heavymark 7y ago
  What specific version. In Safari on Mac, you can set the user agent in the Develop menu, to iOS iPhone, iPad, etc. Tried them all and no luck. Is there a specific iOS Device/iOS version you set to to be able to view the article?
  - 9935c101ab17a66 7y ago
    Super weird, this worked once and no longer works, I have no idea what changed. Sorry.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- nyolfen 7y ago
  try the bypass paywalls extension, works fantastic: https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome
  - mzs 7y ago
    BPC 1.4.8 on google chrome 73.0.3683.103 (Official Build) (64-bit) apple works great thanks
- pizzazzaro 7y ago
  Sounds like you screwed the pooch by telling us all. Sorry for our loss.
mnm1 7y ago
The only conclusion is that the NSA simply cannot be trusted in the future. I'm sure our illogical lawmakers will not draw it, but this is clearly another case of being told this program was crucial and people's rights needed to be trampled on that was simply untrue. The NSA just wanted the power for powers sake. Lawmakers should stop giving this agency what it asks for as it clearly has no bounds or idea of what it's doing with the incredible power it has.
- ma2rten 7y ago
  It seems like they have at least enough bounds to say now that's not necessary.
- archgoon 7y ago
  Not necessarily; it may have been a very important source that has dried up or has been superseded by alternatives. The phone program was launched prior to the iPhone and Facebook (even though we only found out about it after both). It may well have been very important up to at least 2012 (6 years into Facebook, 3 into the iPhone/ android boom) when we learned about the program and the NSA defended it. Since the revelation seven years ago, it could well be that targets of the NSA are no longer using communication channels where phone metadata is useful.
OrgNet 7y ago
We can't trust what they say but either way, most phone traffic is probably VOIP nowadays (not traditional phone, so that program is probably obsolete?)...
clubm8 7y ago
Meanwhile in England: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora And Utah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center#Purpose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center#Purpose
- walrus01 7y ago
  From a purely technical perspective, the bespoke equipment needed to buffer and search through the traffic flow of a single 100Gbps transatlantic DWDM circuit (of which there might be 40 or 80 possible circuits in a single cable, from Porthcurnow to NY/NJ) would be incredibly complicated and costly. Just the amount of RAM you would need is nuts. Or to do the same as a passive intercept on a 100Gbps PNI between two ISPs at Telehouse Docklands.
  - patrickg_zill 7y ago
    They (combined non-military intelligence agencies) have a budget of $50 Billion USD per year. Would that be enough?
  - dannyw 7y ago
    They have a budget in the billions.
    - clubm8 7y ago
      Also they don't need it all necessarily. Just metadata could be extremely useful, on a long timeline.
  - late2part 7y ago
    No, it's not. Gigamon can easily tap 100G and deconstruct it into 10x10G flows. https://www.gigamon.com/company/news-and-events/newsroom/gigamon-brings-performance-visibility-100gb-networks.html https://www.gigamon.com/company/news-and-events/newsroom/gig... An off the shelf server can line rate tap/filter 10g. gigamon might cost $50k? Each server might cost $5k? $100k to monitor a 100g circuit? Peanuts.
pdimitar 7y ago
And we should believe the word of an agency that broke it many times before and actively tried to sabotage encryption, because?...
- liquidise 7y ago
  This damned-if-they-do sentiment risks dismissing positive policy moves. If this headline read "NSA is expanding surveillance programs" people would be up in arms over the privacy implications. Instead they announce that they believe it should be dismantled and the response is... the same? I understand the hesitation. Outright dismissing positive change feels like a counter-productive stance to adopt.
  - JasonFruit 7y ago
    I understand why you say this, but even if they're truly doing the right thing here, I only owe them gratitude enough to say, "Thanks for stopping spying on me, finally, at least in this way." Add that to the number of times the NSA has shown itself to be untrustworthy and intentionally deceptive, and I'm willing to seem ungrateful and hard to satisfy. They've cultivated a hostile relationship, toward fixing which this is at best a small step.
    - netwanderer3 7y ago
      They could be invasive, by monitoring even when there's nothing going on, but there are well-defined rules and strict protocols in place, and I have never heard any cases where they have used the data to attack anyone personally or are there?
      - maxheadroom 7y ago
        Not sure if this[0] falls under the "attack anyone personally" umbrella but it definitely falls under the invasive, even when there's nothing going on, portion of your comment. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog...
holyend 7y ago
Personally, the whole “Fuck the NSA” attitude elicits a vision of some liberal tech elite fancying themselves as true digital thugs, running the digital streets and wielding more power than the NSA had just a decade ago. My personal anecdote is that the social situation deteriorated significantly after Snowden in terms of digitally facilitated social tribalism. Bulk collection of phone records is surely a bit of an anachronism in 2019, since anyone with criminal intent will be fully cognizant thanks to Snowden and team. More generally, many people, including all criminals of average or better intelligence, benefited greatly from Snowden’s disclosures. Widespread strong encryption has made surveillance far more difficult. Clue the public into an unwitting shell game. It’s a fun time to be the mouse in the cat and mouse game. Private interests with their own big data naturally will be inclined to do a freestyle rap verse on the “Fuck the NSA” EP, on limited edition vinyl. Easy to forget that the digital big boy playing field is diverse. It’s a free country, after all. Naturally this comment will be downvoted mainly for difference in personal beliefs. Also, if Snowden doesn’t tweet about this to celebrate the victory, perhaps he’s concerned that his time in Russia is running out and that he should hedge his bets taking such responsibility.
- unreal37 7y ago
  Just curious, which agency do you work for?
  - holyend 7y ago
    Dude I’m a 40 something old school BBS dork who learned on a C64. Never had a clearance nor government job of any kind. It’s not entirely uncommon to grow from liberal to conservative as you get older, it certainly happened to me and allowed me to see different perspectives. I will say that I’d execute Snowden myself if given the chance to do so legally.
    - communist3 7y ago
      Maybe he would say the same about you, you psychopath.
    - deleted 7y ago
ddelt 7y ago
Personally, the skeptic in me believes if the NSA is losing interest in a major data collection program like this, then they are deflecting the narrative from focusing on an even more impressive and accurate data collection program that they have developed and are ready to deploy out into the world. I’m putting on my tinfoil hat at this point, but every day I read HN I’m surprised at what is capable, given the right technology, money, and time.
- fooey 7y ago
  I think it's more likely that most everyone the NSA would be interested in snooping on is aware they're snooping and has changed how they communicate and moved to encryption. The signal to noise ratio has to be completely ridiculous, to the point that it's no longer a justifiable effort.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Miranda warnings have been pop culture for decades, yet criminals keep confessing in interview rooms. Threats to public safety tend not to be firing on all cylinders, thankfully.
    - culturestate 7y ago
      For some reason, it’s often the people who should shut up the most who just can’t shut up. The ability to stop yourself from talking is an underrated skill.
      - qubex 7y ago
        Looks nervously in the general direction of the current President.
        Mirioron 7y ago
        I think you misunderstand. Him not shutting up is probably how he got the job in the first place - the media gave him so much more attention than anybody else.
HocusLocus 7y ago
ONCE AGAIN, they're clutching at their pearls and swooning about losing the (straw man) metadata. They think we're stoopid. Required reading, NSA Surveillance: Exploring the Geographies of Internet Interception Andrew Clement Faculty of Information, University of Toronto https://archive.org/download/GeographiesOfInternetInterceptionAndrewClement/geographies%20of%20internet%20interception%20andrew%20clement.PDF https://archive.org/download/GeographiesOfInternetIntercepti... Might be a mix of hearsay but some pieces of the puzzle are becoming clearer. Skip to the section on 'NSA Splitters' and ask yourself, if they had drop-in access to the baseband circuits, qould they already be able to intercept the Telcom providers' streams that gather the data that is now part of the disclosure programs? And even if the links are encrypted, keys can be leaked. Telcos are finally 'off the hook'.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jgalt212 7y ago
I heard they are dropping this because they can get all the data they need from FB's new data partner program. /s
kerng 7y ago
I'd assume they have now other means to get what they want.
basetop 7y ago
In other words, the NSA found a better way of snooping. If they are asking to drop phone surveillance, then they found a superior method of data collection.
- killjoywashere 7y ago
  Facebook just hired the author of the Patriot Act. Coincidence? Probably...
- 908087 7y ago
  The replacement programs are known as FACEBOOK and GOOGLE.
  - pizzazzaro 7y ago
    Aggregated by Pinkerton.
- nocturnial 7y ago
  If they've found a better way of snooping then why announce it to the world instead of silently dropping the program? This sounds more like a public relations move instead of a technically inspired one.
  - mrobot 7y ago
    PR, i agree.
- mr_overalls 7y ago
  You can bet that "smart dust" is already here, if in limited application. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/11/even-bugs-will-be-bugged/501113/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/11/even-bu... https://now.northropgrumman.com/mems-and-smart-dust-the-big-potential-of-a-tiny-future/ https://now.northropgrumman.com/mems-and-smart-dust-the-big-...
dang 7y ago
Url changed from https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-surveillance-program-11556138247 https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-s..., which points to this.
- mzs 7y ago
  this extension* still works for me for that WSJ URL (right-click 'open link in igcognito window') * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19744632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19744632
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
dang 7y ago
We changed the URL from https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-surveillance-program-11556138247 https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-s... because WSJ seems no longer to have a paywall workaround. If someone can suggest a better URL, we can change it again. I just did a Google and picked the first link I found that wasn't illegibly crammed with ads.
- maxheadroom 7y ago
  Doing the nerd's work. I like you. <3
- mzs 7y ago
  This works (even without the bypass paywalls extension) in a firefox private window: https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-surveillance-program-11556138247?mod=rsswn https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/artic... I guess what I'm saying is that HN should not penalize the company doing the journalism. People can buy a subscription, those that won't still have a technical solution, and for the rest they can google like you did and find an article to read among the blogspam.
  - dang 7y ago
    There's simply no good solution here, short of the publishing business restructuring so we can pay once to read everything, which I hope I live to see. In the meantime, we have a clear if sucky policy, described at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989, with plenty more explanation at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... It is the way it is not because we or anyone else likes it, but because the alternatives would suck worse.
    - mzs 7y ago
      WSJ is not a hard paywall+, it has multiple technical solutions similar to what was allowed before, open these in a private window for example: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-yale-dad-who-set-off-the-college-admissions-scandal-11552588402?mod=rsswn https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-yale-dad-who-set-off-the-co... https://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-autism-diagnosis-that-isnt-always-permanent-11553526845?mod=rsswn https://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/th... https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-violated-qualcomm-patent-u-s-trade-judge-rules-11553624866?mod=rsswn https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/artic... Notice that "?mod=rsswn" is used as described in this issue^ for a browser extension which can be used for a number of sites. I'll try all these after I click reply and edit if it does not work. + https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496356#19506786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496356#19506786 ^ https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox/issues/120 https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox/issues... edit: All worked though an ad appeared over the article that I was able to dismiss by clicking on the small x in the upper right of the ad itself. Then I was able to read all those articles without being logged-in to the WSJ, just like readers of HNs could before.
tracker1 7y ago
For clarification on my previous response... I mean it's a probably a good thing for the program to be stopped
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
The intelligence agencies used to try to find out a persons skills and experience. Now they jest check their LinkedIn profile. They used to try to find who their friends and associates were. Now they check their Facebook friends. They used to try to figure out where the person travels on their day to day routine. Now they can check your Google Maps location history. Instead of going through great expenses to try to do surveillance on individual phones, they should just focus on how to get that data from these American companies that already have them.
- maxheadroom 7y ago
  >...they should just focus on how to get that data from these American companies that already have them. ...but they were already in their bases, killing their doodz[0], yeah? Why would they focus on something they already had on-hand? [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...
danboarder 7y ago
Are the budgets for these programs public knowledge? How much money have we (taxpayers) spent (or wasted?) on these "tools"? And for historians, will we ever get to see the source code and details of how they worked (other than powerpoint documents leaked by Snowden..)?
- tlrobinson 7y ago
  This particular program, or the whole shebang? It looks like the NSA got about $11B of the "Black Budget" in 2013 https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/black-budget/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/black... It's further broken down on that page.
z3t4 7y ago
All they really need is metadata, IP-addresses, then they can use network theory to build graphs that shows who is communicating with who. If you for example visit a "terrorist" web site you are now linked to everyone else who also visited that site. Using network mesh graphs they can discover new "terrorist" cells. They can even figure out who the leader of this "terrorist" cell is and effectively destroy the cell. I can imagine they are also tracking location data to see who meets physically.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nocturnial 7y ago
I wonder if recruitment was also a factor in making this decision. Recently they released ghidra which they admitted was mainly for recruitment purposes. If it's because of this, then it makes sense it's not worth it. Collecting massive amounts of (mostly useless) data versus attracting talented people. I know it's not a black or white situation and they can still attract talented people, but if there's a negative perception of the NSA then the pool of people will be a lot less.
- holyend 7y ago
  The rumor is that recruitment absolutely was affected after Snowden. More damage done to our country by him. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he did put the full cache of files online before fleeing, to be able to sell them to Russia. He certainly had the capability to do so. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he was involved with Vault 7 somehow; it’s another conspiracy theory floating around. Unclear why this is being downvoted.
  - screye 7y ago
    Is it damage? He exposed the job for what it was and concensious citizens decided that it wasn't a purpose they wanted to fight for. Much better than working on the Manhattan project thinking it would be used for nuclear energy, only to then see your creation be used for mass destruction. Is whistle blowers exposing rampant abuse in the church doing damage to the good of Christianity too? The citizens deserve to know about the scale on which their own government violates their privacy. Snowden is no Assange.
    - holyend 7y ago
      Yes, it’s damage. He torched the NSA to the ground. Comparison to a church doesn’t make sense.
LyalinDotCom 7y ago
Bullshit.
xchip 7y ago
No need to intercept cellphone communications because they already have all in Facebook and whatsapp
metters 7y ago
This only includes the cellphones of American citizens, doesnt it?
tempodox 7y ago
Surprise: The NSA was lying. Not only in the details of what they were saying but also in taking what looked like a most definitive stance on a topic they couldn't know enough about.
throwawaymanbot 7y ago
Are the NSA being pressured from certain current Political actors who do all their criminal things by phone? (instead of having a public showdown, they are preemptively "suggesting" that they are done with it?
wpdev_63 7y ago
bwahahaha - Yeah sure.... It's their bread and butter. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/spy-budgets-soared-in-trumps-first-year https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/spy-budg...
holyend 7y ago
Why is this comment being ghosted? It’s pure censorship. Dang or other admin, can you please explain what about this comment merits it being ghosted? Curse words? Expressing my desire to lawfully execute a traitor? (Snowden did tweet storm today fwiw) This was the flagged top level post by me (aside: censorship of my viewpoint is a real problem, I didn’t say anything to merit having the comment censored): Personally, the whole “Fuck the NSA” attitude elicits a vision of some liberal tech elite fancying themselves as true digital thugs, running the digital streets and wielding more power than the NSA had just a decade ago. My personal anecdote is that the social situation deteriorated significantly after Snowden in terms of digitally facilitated social tribalism. Bulk collection of phone records is surely a bit of an anachronism in 2019, since anyone with criminal intent will be fully cognizant thanks to Snowden and team. More generally, many people, including all criminals of average or better intelligence, benefited greatly from Snowden’s disclosures. Widespread strong encryption has made surveillance far more difficult. Clue the public into an unwitting shell game. It’s a fun time to be the mouse in the cat and mouse game. Private interests with their own big data naturally will be inclined to do a freestyle rap verse on the “Fuck the NSA” EP, on limited edition vinyl. Easy to forget that the digital big boy playing field is diverse. It’s a free country, after all. Naturally this comment will be downvoted mainly for difference in personal beliefs. Also, if Snowden doesn’t tweet about this to celebrate the victory, perhaps he’s concerned that his time in Russia is running out and that he should hedge his bets taking such responsibility.
thestartup 7y ago
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why this comment by "holyend" is being silently ghosted (censored) / flagged. Can a moderator explain the reasoning for it being flagged? Are curse words disallowed? https://ibb.co/f9gVV3Q https://ibb.co/f9gVV3Q I'm assuming this comment will also be ghosted/flagged; if so, requesting a reason please.
Rapzid 7y ago
I wonder if they realized this back when they lied to congress and tried to take credit for FBI work when they couldn't come up with "a single instance in which analysis of the NSA’s bulk collection metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack, or otherwise aided the Government in achieving any objective that was time-sensitive in nature". It's always interesting when something crazy is going on and you would think the NSA would have relevant information to help, but they don't. I suppose six years is enough time to save some face from the 2013 fiasco?

185 points by bonyt 7y ago

They already have enough data to build the rest of it

But think of the ter'rists, aliens and children!! /s Seriously though, it's probably a good thing overall and I can't believe how much data has been collected for dubious security value and exponential risk of abuse.

9935c101ab17a66 7y ago

Just an FYI to people trying to view this article, the usual tricks like facebook outlinking, using outline.com and setting google as a referrer didn't work to circumvent the paywall. But I did manage to view the article by changing my user-agent to Safari - iOS. Dunno why it works but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. EDIT: I take it back. This briefly worked, but doesn't anymore. I have no idea what changed. Sorry peeps.

saagarjha 7y ago
Amusingly, I got a paywall in Safari on iOS.
- 9935c101ab17a66 7y ago
  It's super weird, this only worked for me once? It no longer does.
heavymark 7y ago
What specific version. In Safari on Mac, you can set the user agent in the Develop menu, to iOS iPhone, iPad, etc. Tried them all and no luck. Is there a specific iOS Device/iOS version you set to to be able to view the article?
- 9935c101ab17a66 7y ago
  Super weird, this worked once and no longer works, I have no idea what changed. Sorry.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nyolfen 7y ago
try the bypass paywalls extension, works fantastic: https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome
- mzs 7y ago
  BPC 1.4.8 on google chrome 73.0.3683.103 (Official Build) (64-bit) apple works great thanks
pizzazzaro 7y ago
Sounds like you screwed the pooch by telling us all. Sorry for our loss.

mnm1 7y ago

The only conclusion is that the NSA simply cannot be trusted in the future. I'm sure our illogical lawmakers will not draw it, but this is clearly another case of being told this program was crucial and people's rights needed to be trampled on that was simply untrue. The NSA just wanted the power for powers sake. Lawmakers should stop giving this agency what it asks for as it clearly has no bounds or idea of what it's doing with the incredible power it has.

ma2rten 7y ago
It seems like they have at least enough bounds to say now that's not necessary.
archgoon 7y ago
Not necessarily; it may have been a very important source that has dried up or has been superseded by alternatives. The phone program was launched prior to the iPhone and Facebook (even though we only found out about it after both). It may well have been very important up to at least 2012 (6 years into Facebook, 3 into the iPhone/ android boom) when we learned about the program and the NSA defended it. Since the revelation seven years ago, it could well be that targets of the NSA are no longer using communication channels where phone metadata is useful.

OrgNet 7y ago

We can't trust what they say but either way, most phone traffic is probably VOIP nowadays (not traditional phone, so that program is probably obsolete?)...

clubm8 7y ago

Meanwhile in England: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora And Utah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center#Purpose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center#Purpose

walrus01 7y ago
From a purely technical perspective, the bespoke equipment needed to buffer and search through the traffic flow of a single 100Gbps transatlantic DWDM circuit (of which there might be 40 or 80 possible circuits in a single cable, from Porthcurnow to NY/NJ) would be incredibly complicated and costly. Just the amount of RAM you would need is nuts. Or to do the same as a passive intercept on a 100Gbps PNI between two ISPs at Telehouse Docklands.
- patrickg_zill 7y ago
  They (combined non-military intelligence agencies) have a budget of $50 Billion USD per year. Would that be enough?
- dannyw 7y ago
  They have a budget in the billions.
  - clubm8 7y ago
    Also they don't need it all necessarily. Just metadata could be extremely useful, on a long timeline.
- late2part 7y ago
  No, it's not. Gigamon can easily tap 100G and deconstruct it into 10x10G flows. https://www.gigamon.com/company/news-and-events/newsroom/gigamon-brings-performance-visibility-100gb-networks.html https://www.gigamon.com/company/news-and-events/newsroom/gig... An off the shelf server can line rate tap/filter 10g. gigamon might cost $50k? Each server might cost $5k? $100k to monitor a 100g circuit? Peanuts.

pdimitar 7y ago

And we should believe the word of an agency that broke it many times before and actively tried to sabotage encryption, because?...

liquidise 7y ago
This damned-if-they-do sentiment risks dismissing positive policy moves. If this headline read "NSA is expanding surveillance programs" people would be up in arms over the privacy implications. Instead they announce that they believe it should be dismantled and the response is... the same? I understand the hesitation. Outright dismissing positive change feels like a counter-productive stance to adopt.
- JasonFruit 7y ago
  I understand why you say this, but even if they're truly doing the right thing here, I only owe them gratitude enough to say, "Thanks for stopping spying on me, finally, at least in this way." Add that to the number of times the NSA has shown itself to be untrustworthy and intentionally deceptive, and I'm willing to seem ungrateful and hard to satisfy. They've cultivated a hostile relationship, toward fixing which this is at best a small step.
  - netwanderer3 7y ago
    They could be invasive, by monitoring even when there's nothing going on, but there are well-defined rules and strict protocols in place, and I have never heard any cases where they have used the data to attack anyone personally or are there?
    - maxheadroom 7y ago
      Not sure if this[0] falls under the "attack anyone personally" umbrella but it definitely falls under the invasive, even when there's nothing going on, portion of your comment. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog...

holyend 7y ago

Personally, the whole “Fuck the NSA” attitude elicits a vision of some liberal tech elite fancying themselves as true digital thugs, running the digital streets and wielding more power than the NSA had just a decade ago. My personal anecdote is that the social situation deteriorated significantly after Snowden in terms of digitally facilitated social tribalism. Bulk collection of phone records is surely a bit of an anachronism in 2019, since anyone with criminal intent will be fully cognizant thanks to Snowden and team. More generally, many people, including all criminals of average or better intelligence, benefited greatly from Snowden’s disclosures. Widespread strong encryption has made surveillance far more difficult. Clue the public into an unwitting shell game. It’s a fun time to be the mouse in the cat and mouse game. Private interests with their own big data naturally will be inclined to do a freestyle rap verse on the “Fuck the NSA” EP, on limited edition vinyl. Easy to forget that the digital big boy playing field is diverse. It’s a free country, after all. Naturally this comment will be downvoted mainly for difference in personal beliefs. Also, if Snowden doesn’t tweet about this to celebrate the victory, perhaps he’s concerned that his time in Russia is running out and that he should hedge his bets taking such responsibility.

unreal37 7y ago
Just curious, which agency do you work for?
- holyend 7y ago
  Dude I’m a 40 something old school BBS dork who learned on a C64. Never had a clearance nor government job of any kind. It’s not entirely uncommon to grow from liberal to conservative as you get older, it certainly happened to me and allowed me to see different perspectives. I will say that I’d execute Snowden myself if given the chance to do so legally.
  - communist3 7y ago
    Maybe he would say the same about you, you psychopath.
  - deleted 7y ago

ddelt 7y ago

Personally, the skeptic in me believes if the NSA is losing interest in a major data collection program like this, then they are deflecting the narrative from focusing on an even more impressive and accurate data collection program that they have developed and are ready to deploy out into the world. I’m putting on my tinfoil hat at this point, but every day I read HN I’m surprised at what is capable, given the right technology, money, and time.

fooey 7y ago
I think it's more likely that most everyone the NSA would be interested in snooping on is aware they're snooping and has changed how they communicate and moved to encryption. The signal to noise ratio has to be completely ridiculous, to the point that it's no longer a justifiable effort.
- closeparen 7y ago
  Miranda warnings have been pop culture for decades, yet criminals keep confessing in interview rooms. Threats to public safety tend not to be firing on all cylinders, thankfully.
  - culturestate 7y ago
    For some reason, it’s often the people who should shut up the most who just can’t shut up. The ability to stop yourself from talking is an underrated skill.
    - qubex 7y ago
      Looks nervously in the general direction of the current President.
      - Mirioron 7y ago
        I think you misunderstand. Him not shutting up is probably how he got the job in the first place - the media gave him so much more attention than anybody else.

HocusLocus 7y ago

ONCE AGAIN, they're clutching at their pearls and swooning about losing the (straw man) metadata. They think we're stoopid. Required reading, NSA Surveillance: Exploring the Geographies of Internet Interception Andrew Clement Faculty of Information, University of Toronto https://archive.org/download/GeographiesOfInternetInterceptionAndrewClement/geographies%20of%20internet%20interception%20andrew%20clement.PDF https://archive.org/download/GeographiesOfInternetIntercepti... Might be a mix of hearsay but some pieces of the puzzle are becoming clearer. Skip to the section on 'NSA Splitters' and ask yourself, if they had drop-in access to the baseband circuits, qould they already be able to intercept the Telcom providers' streams that gather the data that is now part of the disclosure programs? And even if the links are encrypted, keys can be leaked. Telcos are finally 'off the hook'.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jgalt212 7y ago

I heard they are dropping this because they can get all the data they need from FB's new data partner program. /s

kerng 7y ago

I'd assume they have now other means to get what they want.

basetop 7y ago

In other words, the NSA found a better way of snooping. If they are asking to drop phone surveillance, then they found a superior method of data collection.

killjoywashere 7y ago
Facebook just hired the author of the Patriot Act. Coincidence? Probably...
908087 7y ago
The replacement programs are known as FACEBOOK and GOOGLE.
- pizzazzaro 7y ago
  Aggregated by Pinkerton.
nocturnial 7y ago
If they've found a better way of snooping then why announce it to the world instead of silently dropping the program? This sounds more like a public relations move instead of a technically inspired one.
- mrobot 7y ago
  PR, i agree.
mr_overalls 7y ago
You can bet that "smart dust" is already here, if in limited application. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/11/even-bugs-will-be-bugged/501113/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/11/even-bu... https://now.northropgrumman.com/mems-and-smart-dust-the-big-potential-of-a-tiny-future/ https://now.northropgrumman.com/mems-and-smart-dust-the-big-...

dang 7y ago

Url changed from https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-surveillance-program-11556138247 https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-s..., which points to this.

mzs 7y ago
this extension* still works for me for that WSJ URL (right-click 'open link in igcognito window') * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19744632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19744632
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

dang 7y ago

We changed the URL from https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-surveillance-program-11556138247 https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-s... because WSJ seems no longer to have a paywall workaround. If someone can suggest a better URL, we can change it again. I just did a Google and picked the first link I found that wasn't illegibly crammed with ads.

maxheadroom 7y ago
Doing the nerd's work. I like you. <3
mzs 7y ago
This works (even without the bypass paywalls extension) in a firefox private window: https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-recommends-dropping-phone-surveillance-program-11556138247?mod=rsswn https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/artic... I guess what I'm saying is that HN should not penalize the company doing the journalism. People can buy a subscription, those that won't still have a technical solution, and for the rest they can google like you did and find an article to read among the blogspam.
- dang 7y ago
  There's simply no good solution here, short of the publishing business restructuring so we can pay once to read everything, which I hope I live to see. In the meantime, we have a clear if sucky policy, described at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989, with plenty more explanation at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... It is the way it is not because we or anyone else likes it, but because the alternatives would suck worse.
  - mzs 7y ago
    WSJ is not a hard paywall+, it has multiple technical solutions similar to what was allowed before, open these in a private window for example: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-yale-dad-who-set-off-the-college-admissions-scandal-11552588402?mod=rsswn https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-yale-dad-who-set-off-the-co... https://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-autism-diagnosis-that-isnt-always-permanent-11553526845?mod=rsswn https://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/th... https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-violated-qualcomm-patent-u-s-trade-judge-rules-11553624866?mod=rsswn https://m.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https://www.wsj.com/artic... Notice that "?mod=rsswn" is used as described in this issue^ for a browser extension which can be used for a number of sites. I'll try all these after I click reply and edit if it does not work. + https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496356#19506786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496356#19506786 ^ https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox/issues/120 https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox/issues... edit: All worked though an ad appeared over the article that I was able to dismiss by clicking on the small x in the upper right of the ad itself. Then I was able to read all those articles without being logged-in to the WSJ, just like readers of HNs could before.

tracker1 7y ago

For clarification on my previous response... I mean it's a probably a good thing for the program to be stopped

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

The intelligence agencies used to try to find out a persons skills and experience. Now they jest check their LinkedIn profile. They used to try to find who their friends and associates were. Now they check their Facebook friends. They used to try to figure out where the person travels on their day to day routine. Now they can check your Google Maps location history. Instead of going through great expenses to try to do surveillance on individual phones, they should just focus on how to get that data from these American companies that already have them.

maxheadroom 7y ago
>...they should just focus on how to get that data from these American companies that already have them. ...but they were already in their bases, killing their doodz[0], yeah? Why would they focus on something they already had on-hand? [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

danboarder 7y ago

Are the budgets for these programs public knowledge? How much money have we (taxpayers) spent (or wasted?) on these "tools"? And for historians, will we ever get to see the source code and details of how they worked (other than powerpoint documents leaked by Snowden..)?

tlrobinson 7y ago
This particular program, or the whole shebang? It looks like the NSA got about $11B of the "Black Budget" in 2013 https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/black-budget/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/black... It's further broken down on that page.

z3t4 7y ago

All they really need is metadata, IP-addresses, then they can use network theory to build graphs that shows who is communicating with who. If you for example visit a "terrorist" web site you are now linked to everyone else who also visited that site. Using network mesh graphs they can discover new "terrorist" cells. They can even figure out who the leader of this "terrorist" cell is and effectively destroy the cell. I can imagine they are also tracking location data to see who meets physically.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

nocturnial 7y ago

I wonder if recruitment was also a factor in making this decision. Recently they released ghidra which they admitted was mainly for recruitment purposes. If it's because of this, then it makes sense it's not worth it. Collecting massive amounts of (mostly useless) data versus attracting talented people. I know it's not a black or white situation and they can still attract talented people, but if there's a negative perception of the NSA then the pool of people will be a lot less.

holyend 7y ago
The rumor is that recruitment absolutely was affected after Snowden. More damage done to our country by him. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he did put the full cache of files online before fleeing, to be able to sell them to Russia. He certainly had the capability to do so. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he was involved with Vault 7 somehow; it’s another conspiracy theory floating around. Unclear why this is being downvoted.
- screye 7y ago
  Is it damage? He exposed the job for what it was and concensious citizens decided that it wasn't a purpose they wanted to fight for. Much better than working on the Manhattan project thinking it would be used for nuclear energy, only to then see your creation be used for mass destruction. Is whistle blowers exposing rampant abuse in the church doing damage to the good of Christianity too? The citizens deserve to know about the scale on which their own government violates their privacy. Snowden is no Assange.
  - holyend 7y ago
    Yes, it’s damage. He torched the NSA to the ground. Comparison to a church doesn’t make sense.

LyalinDotCom 7y ago

Bullshit.

xchip 7y ago

No need to intercept cellphone communications because they already have all in Facebook and whatsapp

metters 7y ago

This only includes the cellphones of American citizens, doesnt it?

tempodox 7y ago

Surprise: The NSA was lying. Not only in the details of what they were saying but also in taking what looked like a most definitive stance on a topic they couldn't know enough about.

throwawaymanbot 7y ago

Are the NSA being pressured from certain current Political actors who do all their criminal things by phone? (instead of having a public showdown, they are preemptively "suggesting" that they are done with it?

wpdev_63 7y ago

bwahahaha - Yeah sure.... It's their bread and butter. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/spy-budgets-soared-in-trumps-first-year https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/spy-budg...

holyend 7y ago

Why is this comment being ghosted? It’s pure censorship. Dang or other admin, can you please explain what about this comment merits it being ghosted? Curse words? Expressing my desire to lawfully execute a traitor? (Snowden did tweet storm today fwiw) This was the flagged top level post by me (aside: censorship of my viewpoint is a real problem, I didn’t say anything to merit having the comment censored): Personally, the whole “Fuck the NSA” attitude elicits a vision of some liberal tech elite fancying themselves as true digital thugs, running the digital streets and wielding more power than the NSA had just a decade ago. My personal anecdote is that the social situation deteriorated significantly after Snowden in terms of digitally facilitated social tribalism. Bulk collection of phone records is surely a bit of an anachronism in 2019, since anyone with criminal intent will be fully cognizant thanks to Snowden and team. More generally, many people, including all criminals of average or better intelligence, benefited greatly from Snowden’s disclosures. Widespread strong encryption has made surveillance far more difficult. Clue the public into an unwitting shell game. It’s a fun time to be the mouse in the cat and mouse game. Private interests with their own big data naturally will be inclined to do a freestyle rap verse on the “Fuck the NSA” EP, on limited edition vinyl. Easy to forget that the digital big boy playing field is diverse. It’s a free country, after all. Naturally this comment will be downvoted mainly for difference in personal beliefs. Also, if Snowden doesn’t tweet about this to celebrate the victory, perhaps he’s concerned that his time in Russia is running out and that he should hedge his bets taking such responsibility.

thestartup 7y ago

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why this comment by "holyend" is being silently ghosted (censored) / flagged. Can a moderator explain the reasoning for it being flagged? Are curse words disallowed? https://ibb.co/f9gVV3Q https://ibb.co/f9gVV3Q I'm assuming this comment will also be ghosted/flagged; if so, requesting a reason please.

Rapzid 7y ago

I wonder if they realized this back when they lied to congress and tried to take credit for FBI work when they couldn't come up with "a single instance in which analysis of the NSA’s bulk collection metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack, or otherwise aided the Government in achieving any objective that was time-sensitive in nature". It's always interesting when something crazy is going on and you would think the NSA would have relevant information to help, but they don't. I suppose six years is enough time to save some face from the 2013 fiasco?