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Why Do People with Depression Like Listening to Sad Music?

185 points by charlieirish 7y ago

algaeontoast 7y ago
As someone who has experienced this firsthand, I think deep / sad music is a depressed person's form of white noise. It satiates the part of your mind that wants you to actively think about why you hate life and allows you to be neutral for a short while. I'm still perplexed by this going through playlists I made while in college during the deepest depths of my depression.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  I think in general people revel in the mood they're in and listening to music that supports or amplifies that mood seems common. In a way it legitimizes and validates the feelings they're experiencing by sharing the experience with the music.
OldFatCactus 7y ago
catharsis
fabricexpert 7y ago
I'm a really happy person but I love depressing music
mapcars 7y ago
Because it supports how they feel, this is pretty much how the liking works in general.
swombat 7y ago
My experience of this was that the sad music could connect to where I was, and once I had connected, I could actually slowly shift my mood by gradually changing the music (had to be gradual though). I kind of stumbled on that, and it worked for me, though in hindsight I can see how it could be seen as a form of musical therapy. The really essential point though, is that in order for this to work I had to begin with songs that actually matched my low mood (Radiohead and Portishead seemed to consistently do the trick)... trying to shift out of a low mood by playing a happy song directly did not work - it was just jarring. I imagine that in doing so I was unconsciously reproducing one of the best impacts of certain kinds of therapy: creating the acknowledgement that yes, I feel the way I feel, that is mirrored by my environment in some way, and it’s not something I need to hide or feel shame about. The music helped me feel that without needing to reveal anything about myself.
- jklinger410 7y ago
  Sad music is a type of immersion therapy. Confronting your fears is always the best way to overcome them. I think sadness and depression also require validation. Stewing on it is good if it is therapeutic, bad if it encourages helplessness.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    > Sad music is a type of immersion therapy. Confronting your fears is always the best way to overcome them. I couldn't stress this enough. Also there is a danger when in a depressive(depressed?) state to stay in it by feeding back the beast. I got stuck for two days once listening non-stop to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAcALH67-2A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAcALH67-2A (Hans Zimmer - Time (OST "Inception") │ Fingerstyle guitar) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuEEEwgdAZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuEEEwgdAZs (Hans Zimmer - INTERSTELLAR⎪12 STRING FINGERSTYLE GUITAR). I suspect the sadness I experience when listening to it comes from the threads I weaved between elements of my own life and those movies. Now I can't listen to those tracks anymore. I mentionned that because the sad track (adagio for strings) used in the experiment is a happy one for me since it reminds me of the Homeworld opening sequence (which bring elements of "let's move forward" and "let's fight for our lives").
- yathern 7y ago
  I've been doing this for years! I have a dozen or so playlists that start off with very sad music, become melancholy, then bittersweet, then hopeful, and finally happy. Almost always does the trick! But you have to have time to kill. The way I see it is like rescuing someone stuck on the ocean floor. You can't just bring them up! Your body has to adjust to the changing pressure. Slowly and slowly you change the mood, allowing time to ease in.
  - thetrumanshow 7y ago
    Whoa. Please consider sharing your playlist via Spotify!
pmx 7y ago
Purely anecdotal but when I'm feeling down / sad I find that happy music annoys me where as sad music soothes me. Music too far out of my current mindset clashes with it and causes negative feelings in me.
jaydestro 7y ago
Type O Negative and reboot everything
- battletested 7y ago
  They were one of the very best ever. It's a shame Pete Steel died already.. I heard he was heavily inspired by Lycia, pretty deep too, but not the production level of Type O Negative unfortunately.
maxxxxx 7y ago
Same with depressing literature. When I am in depressed mood then listening/reading depressing material gives me peace. When you have depression you generally don’t get much acceptance so it’s nice to be allowed to be as you are and not constantly being told “lighten up”.
AdmiralAsshat 7y ago
It always seemed self-evident to me that people who are depressed generally dislike being entrenched in "happy" settings (e.g. seeing happier people around them) because it reinforces feelings of isolation. I don't see why music would be any different. Put another way, misery loves company.
battletested 7y ago
Maybe because when you are depressed you want to hear something that resonates within you? But what is 'Sad' in music? I think you crave for depth in musical emotions, not particularly 'sad' when you are depressed.
Zaphods 7y ago
Is this that people with depression crave sad music, or that music meant to elicit pathos has found its target audience? > The controversial implication is that depressed people deliberately act in ways that are likely to maintain their low mood. How is this remotely controversial? Finding something you like is not the same as liking your state or disposition for depression. > “… may reflect a desire for calming emotional experience rather than a desire to augment sad feelings.” So, we've basically confirmed that people get pleasure out of liking things? This study seems weird.
- LesZedCB 7y ago
  Kurzgesagt had a really great video[1] on loneliness that described the downward spiral that people find themselves in. > > The controversial implication is that depressed people deliberately act in ways that are likely to maintain their low mood. > How is this remotely controversial? Finding something you like is not the same as liking your state or disposition for depression. i think that is controversial because it assigns agency to the person experiencing the depression, that they are causing their own depression. but the most common complaint from people with depression is that people are always telling them to "just cheer up" etc etc. this is the same sentiment in a specific context. "if you just didn't listen to depressing music all the time, maybe you wouldn't be so depressed." [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Xv_g3g-mA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Xv_g3g-mA
  - Zaphods 7y ago
    Now I think we're running into the strange alleyways in our concept of depression. Do people with depression have no agency in their depression? I think it depends. Depression can be a disposition, ie. someone is disposed to being depressed but not always depressed. Depression can be a mental state, ie. I'm depressed right now. Depression can also be a clinical diagnosis, ie. you are lacking such and such chemical balance and that is your depression and you require such and such to "fix" it. Depression can be an emotion or a feeling, ie. I feel depressed, or that poet is describing or manifesting their depression in their words. Depression can be a cause and a reason, in the sense that one (an agent) gives a reason for their actions. The concept of depression has different degrees of agency. In some clinical cases, none at all. That seems controversial until you realize depression is a complex and flexible concept. This study seems to have not clarified what exactly they are talking about when they describe people as depressed.
telesilla 7y ago
I've always considered sad music a kind of ally - in lieu of a friend you can be quiet with and share your moment. It's a form of communication, and sad music is sharing, well, sadness. I think it makes isolated people feel less lonely. I'm also keen to hear the mentioned sad piece "Rakavot" by Avi Balili but it doesn't seem to exist online, does anyone have a reference?
- rowlf 7y ago
  Here it is: https://avibelleli.bandcamp.com/track/trains https://avibelleli.bandcamp.com/track/trains It's from a film soundtrack, used in the opening scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoC2PHu5f4I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoC2PHu5f4I Apparently, they transliterated the guy's name incorrectly (it's Belleli). I found it by searching in Hebrew at which point google managed to correct my spelling.
i_am_proteus 7y ago
When you feel completely disconnected from society, the right kind of music gives you something to connect to. Which is something.
RandomInteger4 7y ago
Boomerang effect. You go fast enough into a depressive state to actually feel something, have a good snotty sobbing cry, perhaps with that semi solid yellow stuff coming out of your sinuses, and then come out feeling refreshed and slightly embarrassed hoping you don't enter that state of mind again for a while.
hirundo 7y ago
As miserable as it is to be depressed there may also be something positively reinforcing about it. Anger and hate clearly have that going for them, would it be surprising if sadness does too? If so, listening to sad music may be attractive in that it helps people feel sad.
0_gravitas 7y ago
I think it goes further than just music. There is something that I have noticed in my life, when it comes to the people I'm drawn to and the people that are drawn to me. We all tend to share a particular similarity, in that we end up being 'darker' people in one way or another. When I say 'dark' I dont really mean like 'emo' or 'goth', but in the way that our humors are usually darker, and we all have either dealt with or are dealing with some kind of despair. I think it's a feeling of 'not being alone' when you are with someone who 'gets it', and it's a sort of warmth that you dont come across much in the day to day. I dont think dark people just like dark music, I think dark people like other dark people.
- fragsworth 7y ago
  Misery loves company.
  - randcraw 7y ago
    In my experience, misery prefers solitude.
- misterman0 7y ago
  I can relate to this but I would never call myself "dark" even though I've been depressed more often than my peers. Instead I think I have experienced first hand more of the emotional spectrum than others might have and I consider this one of my strengths, that I have felt many things close to or within the realms of despair, without dying. I believe in and adhere to "what doesn't kill you will make you stronger".
- okmokmz 7y ago
  Agreed, I quickly found I didn't fit into the FAANG or California startup culture as it seemed to attract lots of, what I would consider, very preppy, overly positive, outgoing people. Definitely nothing wrong with that, but those aren't the kind of people I generally form strong bonds with. I've found Seattle to be a much better fit
- _jal 7y ago
  That's generally been my experience, too. I have had depressive stretches and pulled out of them, but have always been consistently a "dark" person. Dark doesn't mean unhappy. It isn't that I "only see negatives", as I've been told endlessly, or just have a dark sense of humor. It is also related being relatively good at security analysis, architecture and troubleshooting - I tend to naturally focus on faults and limits, and reach for a systemic view first. And any time you look at human systems, that's depressing. (That was a joke, there.) Musically, I used to be more exclusively "dark". That's changed as I've gotten older, but I still find most pop grating. The last few months I've been more on an active listening jag, after thinking I noticed Erik Satie-ish influences on Brian Eno, and then Laurie Anderson and Robert Fripp. (Eno acknowledged this in something I read, I'm less sure about Anderson. Fripp may have just been responding to Eno.)
G4BB3R 7y ago
It's math! -1 * -1 = 1
PaulHoule 7y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23v5_K7cXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23v5_K7cXk
sdegutis 7y ago
If you're interested in some philosophical perspectives of depression, you may find these pages as interesting as I did: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2038.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2038.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2037.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2037.htm
CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
Responding to the headline: Because depression isn't sadness, it's a mental illness that causes a numbing, hollowing feeling that robs you of joy. In my experience, it's more akin to despair than sorrow. Feeling anything (even sadness) can help make it easier to cope with it if you're unable to seek effective treatment. Which is most people, probably. Most people I know who have depression can't (or won't) seek effective treatment, usually because of cost prohibition.
e12e 7y ago
My first thought seeing the headline was of this quote: "What came first – the music or the misery? Did I listen to the music because I was miserable? Or was I miserable because I listened to the music? Do all those records turn you into a melancholy person?" - Nick Hornby, High Fidelity Also relevant from the book: "People worry about kids playing with guns, and teenagers watching violent videos; we are scared that some sort of culture of violence will take them over. Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands - literally thousands - of songs about broken hearts and rejection and pain and misery and loss."
- b_tterc_p 7y ago
  Maybe I’m wrong but broken heart sad seems a lot more transient than older generations of sad music like, say, Pink Floyd’s The Wall and The Final Cut. I would wager it’s really not a problem.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Floyd have their own broken heart sad songs (Wish you where here, nobody home, and lotsa others). Though the Final Cut was a flop, and barely listened to/mentioned today, so kind of transient itself. But of course tons of 70s and 60s era music are "broken heart sad" as well -- it's not like some unique today phenomenon. Broken heart sad takes a good 50% of all songs since time immemorial... If anything, today it's not "broken heart sad" anymore, but some hip-hop/pop version of "how cool/rich I am" or "how badass I am", looking at the charts.
    - rednerrus 7y ago
      Wish you were here is not a broken heart sad song. It's about disillusionment.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        Not broken heart from a lover, but broken heart about a friend. Still a broken heart.
soylentcola 7y ago
Because "sad songs say so much" as Elton put it. It's probably considered a bit corny now, but it's dead-on. "From the lips of some old singer We can share the troubles we already know ... If someone else is suffering enough oh to write it down When every single word makes sense Then it's easier to have those songs around The kick inside is in the line that finally gets to you And it feels so good to hurt so bad And suffer just enough to sing the blues"
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  When I write lyrics, it's only ever because something frustrates me. And I love serious lyrics in general... but I'm also really grateful for people who just see the good in the world and sing about it, like Bob Ross, but for music. That's just not me though. > If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair. -- C. S. Lewis > Altogether, I think we ought to read only books that bite and sting us. If the book does not shake us awake like a blow to the skull, why bother reading it in the first place? So that it can make us happy, as you put it? Good God, we'd be just as happy if we had no books at all; books that make us happy we could, in a pinch, also write ourselves. [..] A book must be the ax for the frozen sea within us. That is what I believe. -- Franz Kafka > You don't write those books because you hope those things will happen. You write those books because you think they might happen.. but you'd rather they didn't. -- Margaret Atwood Such are the thoughts with which I console myself, but still, this is the kind of person I make my stuff, which is solely "against", for: > To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacriﬁce, courage, kindness. What we choose to emphasize in this complex history will determine our lives. If we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places — and there are so many — where people have behaved magniﬁcently, this gives us the energy to act, and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act, in however small a way, we don’t have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an inﬁnite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in deﬁance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory. -- Howard Zinn
ZeroFries 7y ago
Music with harmonic frequencies is pleasing. The brain itself has frequencies which can be consonant/dissonant. As other commenters have mentioned, "happy" music is clashing/jarring (which is exactly what dissonance is like) when too far out of that mind-state. I think it's likely that the sound inputs are not harmonic/consonant with the brain's frequencies when the mind-state is much different. Thus, it's not just a matter of the degree of consonance of the input, since music sounds better or worse depending on the state of mind one is in, but the degree of consonance that the input induces in the brain's frequencies.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  > but the degree of consonance that the input induces in the brain's frequencies That sounds incredibly pseudosciencey. Why would the inputs of audible sound compare to your brainwaves? Given that light is also composed of frequencies, is there a link there as well, or because the numbers don't align as well, is it disregarded?
  - ZeroFries 7y ago
    > Why would the inputs of audible sound compare to your brainwaves? Why wouldn't they affect brainwaves? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6130927/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6130927/ > Given that light is also composed of frequencies, is there a link there as well Sure https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17050390 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17050390 Not saying this is hard-science yet, just a hypothesis (not my own). You can read more here, if interested: https://qualiacomputing.com/2017/06/18/quantifying-bliss-talk-summary/ https://qualiacomputing.com/2017/06/18/quantifying-bliss-tal...
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      There's no doubt that light and sound affect the brain, our sense wouldn't function otherwise, I just have doubts about there being particular resonances or harmonics.
b_tterc_p 7y ago
I’m of the belief that a lot of depression is addiction and accumulated tolerance to the pleasure of being sad. Feeling intense sadness feels really good as your brain releases chemicals to make you feel better. When feeling sad, a lot of people will tell themselves the worst possible worldview they can conceive to get a surge of deeper sadness and thus relief. That being said, people tend to listen to music that validates their feelings regardless of the feeling so this isn’t surprising.
- sedeki 7y ago
  Does the brain really release feel-good chemicals? I’m not sure I believe that, but I am no expert. :) Some relatives to me, who are depressed, tend to immerse in self-pity, and that feels good to them. It’s like they live in their own bubble, with a biased interpretation of the world, and they are in the middle of it.
  - b_tterc_p 7y ago
    Anecdata of one, yes, it feels very pleasurable, though it may be difficult to recognize this as it’s contextualized in sadness and negative thoughts. I’m referring to mostly mundane exaggerated teenage emotions mind you. Unless I’m just an emotional masochist, but I suspect not.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  This is absolutely ridiculous. Feeling intense sadness does not feel really good. People do not do things to "get a surge of deeper sadness and thus relief". This reads like someone who has never truly experienced depression, or even known anyone who was genuinely depressed. The implications you are making are offensive, unfounded, and incorrect
  - b_tterc_p 7y ago
    I’m not saying people seek out being sad to attain pleasure. I’m saying that when people are already sad, pushing the buttons in your brain to explore that sadness results in a positive feeling. Science is already on board that crying releases oxytocin and endorphins. I’m merely suggesting that crying is not absolutely required for the brain offer a similar comforting response when sad. I further posit that given humans have a tendency to get addicted to any source of endorphins from phone screens to spicy peppers, they can and do get addicted to this one. If you want to triple down on strictness and say only crying gives pleasure from sadness... sure whatever. I’m not going to make that my hill to die on. Edit: and note that if someone did accumulate tolerance to natural calming emotional counteragents, that sounds like a very compelling setup for depression.
smrtinsert 7y ago
I find musical experience is sometimes push or pull. Occasionally a sad piece will push into that space, but sometimes you are already sad and you search for music to pull into that place with you.
pjmorris 7y ago
In the throes of what was, in retrospect, probably depression, I made a playlist of my 'blues', the saddest songs I knew, to try and get a handle on what I was feeling. Somehow knowing I wasn't unique in sorrow helped, as did hearing how others dealt with it, even in such a packaged form. Lots of other songs hit closer to home, but, somehow, 'Everybody Plays the Fool' by 'The Main Ingredient' always puts me in a better mood when it comes on.
MlkedChocolate 7y ago
If something hurts, we usually stop doing it (feedback loop), unless there is something else at play: some short term positives, like taking drugs. So depression (even without music) persists because it actually feels good in the short term. I remember when I was a child, and was crying, I could cry myself even more, by just thinking negative thoughts, it kinda felt good to 'release'. Music amplifies this, so I would say this is why depressed people 'enjoy' sad music. Then, I was taught not to have self-pity, and didn't really care to be sad any longer. Instead I chose to solve the problems or move on if they're not solvable. It's helped me. What do you think?
misterman0 7y ago
I can relate to pop music just fine but those tunes are shallow compared to the information packed songs from Radiohead. But I've never loved Radiohead for their melancholy. Only for their outstanding musical abilities. They also seem to be bright, clever, intelligent even, judging from their lyrics and interviews. I don't consider them dark. I consider them bright. I've been depressed tons of times. I'm bipolar, they tell me. But even outside of a depressive state I return to those artists that try a little harder than those who aim for the top lists. I think most other people who are depressive by nature, when they feel good about themselves they shy away from things that remind them of themselves in a depressive state. But I love being depressed. It's a much better feeling than being manic.
- benc666 7y ago
  Electric Light Orchestra. Music with a futuristic, but mixed pessimistic and bright outlook. And the orchestral contribution makes the backbone of it. If you like Science Fiction (especially reading it) you might like this too.
okmokmz 7y ago
I've always found "happy music" to be boring, annoying, and/or aggravating while what most people would consider angry or sad music is uplifting and can positively affect my mood and energy.
beat 7y ago
As a songwriter, I wonder why I write so many sad songs. Like, a lot of them. Really, really sad songs. I just wrote one last week, inspired by a scene from a science fiction novel. It tells the story of a small fleet of spaceships fleeing a doomed Earth for the stars, and one ship attacking the rest and killing their crews in order to steal their fuel and spare parts. It's not just that what they did is a crime... they knew it was wrong, did it anyway, and feel terrible about it, but they also knew that if they didn't do it, another ship would have done it to them. So it's all guilt and shame from making a totally selfish decision. Why would I write that way? And it's not like this is an unusual subject for me. Part of it, I think, is that I do a very good job of covering up some deep depression in my day-to-day life. I'm a much sadder person than I appear to be.
- moosey 7y ago
  > they knew it was wrong I know which book series this was part of, and this action was the correct one to take. I feel as if the entire point of the book is that at some point, we need to make collective decisions, and when we do so, we all need to share in the responsibility of those decisions. The decision not to protect each human life as some kind of infinite well of value is an unusually narcissistic form of collectivism, I think, and only possible in highly developed nations. I believe that at some point, the reality of resource depletion or pollution, possibly war, will come to a head, and we will have to abandon this view.
  - beat 7y ago
    I've heard some criticism of that series of "Can't relate to the characters". I suspect that it's because the perspective is so strongly Chinese, rather than American. The situation of the scene isn't something an American would even think of, y'know? A big part of the beauty and thrill of that scene, for me, was all of these people recognizing the problem, and the solution, and the horror of the solution, at the same time.
    - amblingalpaca 7y ago
      Do you have any recommendations for other books, movies, or shows that "sparked horror" as well as that event did? The closest I think I've come since was Blindsight's revelation on how the aliens functioned, but it wasn't nearly as cinematic.
nickelcitymario 7y ago
TL;dr: "This study is unable to speak to why depressed people find low-energy, sad music uplifting [...]"
krupan 7y ago
Wait, is it only depressed people that like sad music? What about stories with tragic endings? There must be a lot of depressed people to have made these things so popular over the years.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  Nowhere in the article did it state that only depressed people like sad music, just that they are more likely to choose sad music than the controls
pdfernhout 7y ago
Here is an excerpt from an interview with a music therapist about grief and music (written by a wise and caring friend of mine from long ago): "Music: A Natural Accompaniment to Grief Work: An Interview with Music Therapist Lauren DiMaio, PhD. (Story by Katherine Caldwell)" https://missionhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/October_2018.pdf https://missionhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/October... "During grief, many aspects of our life are raw and painful. It’s common to believe we’re better off avoiding them. But magically, on invisible waves of sound, a piece of music can penetrate into pain we swear was carefully locked away. Within a few chords we can go from “doing just fine” to a searing confrontation with heartache. Of course you might ask: why would we purposely want to do that to ourselves? Grief is tough enough without exposing ourselves to tunes that leave us emotionally wrung out. Perhaps it’s only to say that music is strong medicine. “If a certain piece of music is unbearable, don’t listen to it.” says Dr. DiMaio, “Acknowledge that it’s not helpful at that time. Accept that the piece is only useful in gauging your place on the grief journey at that time.” When confronting the heaviest part of grief, that certain song or hymn, or even a whole genre of music may be impossible to take in. Sad songs of heartbreak or loneliness may, out of respect for our vulnerability, need to be avoided at certain times. Trust your instincts, but don’t turn your back on music completely. Fortunately, music takes infinite forms. If sad tunes are off limits, go on a search for a more joyful noise. Surround yourself with music that speaks to another part of you: songs of celebration and gratitude, or melodies that uplift the spirit. If the music you once loved brings you down these days, it might be appropriate to explore new types of music, things you’ve never listened to before. Changing our internal vibration is what grief recovery is ultimately about on a molecular level. Exposure to inspiring vibrations, even externally, can help us change internally. Finding new music has become easier than ever. Internet searches and downloads make everything published in the music industry readily available, including lyrics." While grief and depression are not identical, there is a lot of overlap.
massung 7y ago
Doesn't this presume that "sad music" is - in fact - sad? There's plenty of music I will sit and listen to that my daughter asks me to turn off because it makes her sad, but I find very uplifting. Examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpvEgJEn94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpvEgJEn94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIcR7Xkysds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIcR7Xkysds There are plenty of other examples as well. All the studies reveal to me is that we're all wired a little different. Shocker.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. "Sad" songs make me feel better. I'm not sure why.
  - randcraw 7y ago
    I think music is a mirror that provides contrast. If the music is more depressing than you are, you feel less depressed. But if the music is happier than you are, you appreciate that you're more unhappy, and that makes you feel worse.
- pier25 7y ago
  We're culturally conditioned to associate certain patterns to certain emotions. Personally I find those two examples you posted as melancholic and solemn, which I love. If you put those same tracks to an African tribe which has never heard (let's call it) European music, I doubt they'd feel sadness or melancholy. Maybe they wouldn't feel anything at all.
markbnine 7y ago
My dad often said, "When you are cold, eat ice cream. It lowers your mean temperature." That said, we always knew he just wanted ice cream.
baddox 7y ago
I’m a bit confused with the premise. It seems like the article is assuming that sad music makes people sad, then wondering specifically why depressed people would listen to sad music. But why would anyone listen to sad music if the premise was true? Isn’t it much more likely that the whole reason sad music exists is that it helps people deal with their sadness, not that it causes sadness? Under this hypothesis, it’s not surprising at all that depressed people would listen to a lot of sad music.
mikorym 7y ago
I've always liked sad music. But I have to say that I don't associate such music with sadness. Rather more with overcoming things? I am not sure. When I compose music I focus a lot on half intervals, especially things like major 7th chords and their derivitives. Obligatory self promotion here: [1]. [1] https://soundcloud.com/philliplyznav/sonic-safety https://soundcloud.com/philliplyznav/sonic-safety
altendo 7y ago
As a volunteer at a crisis center, I can tell you that the thing that people most want to hear when they are sad, depressed, or otherwise in crisis is that they want to validate what feelings that they have. In a word, they are feeling awful and want to sit in that feeling, and the music helps listeners process that feeling.
david-cako 7y ago
The album Lateralus by Tool goes a step further for me. It strikes a balance between depressed and optimistic unlike any other.
egypturnash 7y ago
Personally I find that I can use certain sad music to push through vague mopey depression into a state where I can do something about it. If I just sit there being sad and useless I’m gonna start feeling sad about how long I’ve been sitting there moping and it’s a horrible downward spiral. If I lay there on the floor in the dark with headphones on listening to a double album full of exquisitely constructed instrumental crystals of particular flavors of sadness then I am likely to actually start crying and find some release from the endless circles around the mental drain. Or I might also start laughing at what a caricature of an emotion I’m being by doing this - and then the sadness is banished in another way. Aphex Twin’s “Selected Ambient Works, Volume 2” is my go-to album for this. That or Nine Inch Nails if I want to be more angry. Which probably tells you a lot about my age.
- mediaman 7y ago
  Getting sad enough to cry is a good technique, because tears from strong emotion have been found to carry stress hormones with them out of the body. Crying also releases endorphins which can help you recover from a feeling of sadness. So yes, it's pretty reasonable to feel mopey but unable to extricate yourself until and unless you can push yourself far enough to cry, at which your body's own biology lifts you out of feeling mopey.
formalsystem 7y ago
My impression is that sad music tends to have more substance than happy music. Happy pop music is especially guilty of this where: "it's the summer, everyone is having a good time etc..." I'm really drawn to metal because it creates something beautiful out of difficult emotions. I actually don't get the association to anger at all, it's like saying people who like watching action movies are psychopaths. I would argue that more art is rooted in pain than in happiness.
- asark 7y ago
  Fundamentally, there's no narrative, in the sense of a story or an emotional journey, without conflict. Luke may blow up the Death Star, but Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru got BBQ'd, Obi Wan died, and a lot of friendly pilots were vaporized along the way. And that's a relatively happy movie. Moreover, to the extent that art is to help us grapple with difficult things, well... happiness isn't that difficult. Now, good circumstances but unhappy anyway? Then you've got something to build a story on.
TaupeRanger 7y ago
As usual in reporting and PR around brain/mind science, the "why" question posed in the title is not even remotely addressed or even approached by the study. That would, of course, require a theory about why people feel things at all, and why the feelings feel like they do and not some other way, which we are still woefully ignorant about. The greater (and more general) question here is: why do humans seek out things that make them feel negative emotions? People watch horror movies wanting to be scared. They watch romantic comedies knowing that they will cry sad tears at some point. They read stories containing evil villains who kill and cause great suffering.
wccrawford 7y ago
As a generally-happy person, I quite like happy songs. I tend to like them more than sad or angry songs. I'm guessing this is because I identify with them so much more. And I'm guessing that sad people identify with sad things strongly as well. Perhaps "like" is the wrong word in the title. Perhaps "prefer" is better.
gnode 7y ago
I think music has appeal because it's information, albeit processed at a low level, not because it's a mood-altering drug. As with all media, consumers want to feel it's "true". When consuming new information, we need to find something that resonates with our existing understanding to believe its meaningful, and not noise. Somber music feels more like it contains meaning to a person with a somber outlook. Joyful music in that case feels meaningless to the listener, because it fails to connect with what they already understand.
johnchristopher 7y ago
> The second part of the study used new music samples: 84 pairs of 10-second clips of instrumental film music, contrasting happy, sad, fear-inducing, neutral, and also high and low energy tracks. In each case the same participants as before indicated which music they’d prefer to listen to again later. They also heard all the samples again at the end and stated what effect they had on their emotions. The researchers found again that people with depression had a far greater preference than controls for sad, low-energy music (but not fear-inducing music). Critically, though, when they heard these clips again, they reported that they made them feel more happiness and less sadness, contradicting the provocative idea that depressed people are seeking to perpetuate their low mood. Could we control for the musical complexity structure of the samples ? Something along the lines of "complex musical structures pleases depressed people because it requires concentration and cognitive skills that aren't available for negative thoughts pattern" ?
randyrand 7y ago
Why do sad people like to cry? I think it’s the same answer.
Zenst 7y ago
I find that actually embrassing the depression and be that music or a sad film and letting those negative emotions have focus in a form of distraction. The upside is that after such exposure, the contrast of reality helps raise the mood. Obviously it's not a golden solution and the level of improvement varies as long-standing life issues are still there. But instead of fighting the depression and feeling more down as you end up failing your own standards - fueling the depression. I find embracing it, have a dam good cry, have no shame in expressing such emotions and with that cut of much of the fuel that whilst does not soley instigate the depression but more prolongs it. Just helps. Nothing worse than feeling down, and then feeling even more down because your expectation is that you should not feel down. It's a vicious circle of fueling and depressive period. That and worry about how others percieve it and the whole social stigma's of it being a weakness. So being mindful of such a mood and embracing the mood with a good solid cry, whilst not intuitively what you feel will help, actually does. Real key part is that you take control of the depression more than letting the depression take control of you, and by embracing and accepting it you take that step back into a driving seat. But music is really useful for fixing moods, equally in todays noise poluted enviroments that cause micro-stress (stress you hardly notice but all add up), headphones work wonders. As I have found that stress can and does impact and induce depression. It is identifying those area's of micro-stress and dealing with them that help keep stress in check and with that, depression. But everybody is an individual, so no solution will work for everybody. Though the side-effects of music are far less than any pharmaceutical offering. I'd also suggest, try an old album from better times, For me Blondie Parallel Lines does the trick. Equally some emotionally cold electronic music like some John Foxx renditions help to focus the mood, for me at least. Not what I'd call sad music (though some could), more what I'd class as totally emotionless in many ways.
bumbledraven 7y ago
In order to successfully replicate, the depression meme must get you to feel depressed in the future. Encouraging an interest in sad music can be a part of that cycle.
RichardCA 7y ago
Funny I was just thinking about this... I'm actually more productive with music that has a melancholy tone. But it has to be instrumental, human voices are extremely distracting. Some Chopin works. Some Boards of Canada works. I also get good results with Studio Ghibli soundtrack music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LEmer7wwHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LEmer7wwHI
pyython 7y ago
I had an epiphany a few years ago related to this while in the midst of a depressive episode. A friend commented on my music selections: "Why do you listen to such sad music?" It caught me completely off guard because to me these were not sad songs but very comforting. I had no awareness that these songs could be interpreted as sad at that time. Looking back it's obvious, but at the time it was just what I felt drawn to...
ravenstine 7y ago
In my experience, music that matches my mood makes me fee less alone. I had some tough times when I was a teenager, and didn't seriously get into music until I discovered Rammstein(my favorite band to this day). To most people, it's very brutal sounding, often angry, sometimes depressing. My parents had no idea why I listened to some German guy growling in front of "rock music". My whole world was changed because, finally, someone else expressed how I feel. Now, the lyrics themselves are often grotesque or even silly, but I didn't understand most of it and what they were saying didn't matter to me anyway. I was comforted by the fact that these guys could put into music what I could fail to put into words or deal with in my own life. Simply speaking, I find such music to be cathartic. Actually, lots of different moods of music can be cathartic, but negative music sticks out in that category because we're expected to listen to music that "lifts us up". I think that's why I actually become more depressed by listening to happy music when I'm sad; it's as if the world is telling me that I shouldn't feel the way that I do. Having my feelings recognized by music is about as good as having someone tell me that it's okay to feel bad about my situation.
topicseed 7y ago
I love the title and then... "This study is unable to speak to why depressed people find low-energy, sad music uplifting"
ktran03 7y ago
Depressed people feel lonely. When you hear a sad song, you relate to the artist. Knowing someone else out there has also been in your situation, makes you feel less lonely.
pavon 7y ago
When I'm fairly depressed, my goal is just to get to neutral. Trying to skip strait to happy is counter-productive. In that state of mind, happiness doesn't seem attainable or even real, it is a lie and a facade. Trying to talk myself into being happy is at best empty hype, as I can't genuinely embrace or believe the words I am saying. Happy music, or happy environments are likewise unembracable. When surrounded by them when depressed, I inevitably just retract into my head. This is a waste of time at best - being around people or participating in an activity but not present or enjoying it. At worst it can lead to spiraling negative thoughts that drag me deeper down. Listening to "sad" music on the other hand can be very theraputic. Sometimes, it intensifies the feelings, confronting them, pushing through them, burning them inside of me. Othertimes, I melt into the music, letting go of my thoughts and feelings, letting them seep calmly out of me. I think it partly depends on exactly how I'm feeling: self-hatred or hopelessness or numb. Either way I come out the other end with a sense of relief, and evened out. At this point I can move onto activities that are enjoyable, but not ones that are taxing (eg socializing) or which require lots of decisions to second-guess (eg coding), or can be frustrating (eg video games). For example, reading or whittling are good stepping-stone activities for me. Listening to upbeat music at this point can also help to continue the progression to a happier state, but I have to be careful not to overshoot with music that is too happy or driving.
shivo 7y ago
The Saddest Landscape and Arthur Rubinstein is sad but also emotional. Usually, only listened to once then I'll switch to more mellow playlists. I'm encouraged by the everyone's recommendations.
newnewpdro 7y ago
Misery loves company. Music, films, books, they're virtual companions.
DINKDINK 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophily https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophily
salamanderman 7y ago
In my case, one of the symptoms of my anxiety and depression is to seek out things that make my more worried and sad. It confirms and amplifies my catastrophic thinking. I gather this is a fairly common mode.
grwthckrmstr 7y ago
LoFi
rainhacker 7y ago
So Google/Youtube knows when I'm sad.
- HNLurker2 7y ago
  No joke this article came in rescue at the exact time. I don't know if you are aware of the "doomer meme" (painfully relatable) but there are this videos with gosh damn songs that makes you fall in bottomless pit with others and then in the comment section where people discuss their misfortunes. E.g video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TNVqOmJc-YY&t=2s https://youtube.com/watch?v=TNVqOmJc-YY&t=2s I think the only way I can fix this is too make videos too and gradually, just like the guy above said make them uplifting:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743173. 1:48 Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 - Strauss and then uplifting music.

185 points by charlieirish 7y ago

As someone who has experienced this firsthand, I think deep / sad music is a depressed person's form of white noise. It satiates the part of your mind that wants you to actively think about why you hate life and allows you to be neutral for a short while. I'm still perplexed by this going through playlists I made while in college during the deepest depths of my depression.

cptskippy 7y ago
I think in general people revel in the mood they're in and listening to music that supports or amplifies that mood seems common. In a way it legitimizes and validates the feelings they're experiencing by sharing the experience with the music.

OldFatCactus 7y ago

catharsis

fabricexpert 7y ago

I'm a really happy person but I love depressing music

mapcars 7y ago

Because it supports how they feel, this is pretty much how the liking works in general.

swombat 7y ago

My experience of this was that the sad music could connect to where I was, and once I had connected, I could actually slowly shift my mood by gradually changing the music (had to be gradual though). I kind of stumbled on that, and it worked for me, though in hindsight I can see how it could be seen as a form of musical therapy. The really essential point though, is that in order for this to work I had to begin with songs that actually matched my low mood (Radiohead and Portishead seemed to consistently do the trick)... trying to shift out of a low mood by playing a happy song directly did not work - it was just jarring. I imagine that in doing so I was unconsciously reproducing one of the best impacts of certain kinds of therapy: creating the acknowledgement that yes, I feel the way I feel, that is mirrored by my environment in some way, and it’s not something I need to hide or feel shame about. The music helped me feel that without needing to reveal anything about myself.

jklinger410 7y ago
Sad music is a type of immersion therapy. Confronting your fears is always the best way to overcome them. I think sadness and depression also require validation. Stewing on it is good if it is therapeutic, bad if it encourages helplessness.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  > Sad music is a type of immersion therapy. Confronting your fears is always the best way to overcome them. I couldn't stress this enough. Also there is a danger when in a depressive(depressed?) state to stay in it by feeding back the beast. I got stuck for two days once listening non-stop to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAcALH67-2A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAcALH67-2A (Hans Zimmer - Time (OST "Inception") │ Fingerstyle guitar) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuEEEwgdAZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuEEEwgdAZs (Hans Zimmer - INTERSTELLAR⎪12 STRING FINGERSTYLE GUITAR). I suspect the sadness I experience when listening to it comes from the threads I weaved between elements of my own life and those movies. Now I can't listen to those tracks anymore. I mentionned that because the sad track (adagio for strings) used in the experiment is a happy one for me since it reminds me of the Homeworld opening sequence (which bring elements of "let's move forward" and "let's fight for our lives").
yathern 7y ago
I've been doing this for years! I have a dozen or so playlists that start off with very sad music, become melancholy, then bittersweet, then hopeful, and finally happy. Almost always does the trick! But you have to have time to kill. The way I see it is like rescuing someone stuck on the ocean floor. You can't just bring them up! Your body has to adjust to the changing pressure. Slowly and slowly you change the mood, allowing time to ease in.
- thetrumanshow 7y ago
  Whoa. Please consider sharing your playlist via Spotify!

pmx 7y ago

Purely anecdotal but when I'm feeling down / sad I find that happy music annoys me where as sad music soothes me. Music too far out of my current mindset clashes with it and causes negative feelings in me.

jaydestro 7y ago

Type O Negative and reboot everything

battletested 7y ago
They were one of the very best ever. It's a shame Pete Steel died already.. I heard he was heavily inspired by Lycia, pretty deep too, but not the production level of Type O Negative unfortunately.

maxxxxx 7y ago

Same with depressing literature. When I am in depressed mood then listening/reading depressing material gives me peace. When you have depression you generally don’t get much acceptance so it’s nice to be allowed to be as you are and not constantly being told “lighten up”.

AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

It always seemed self-evident to me that people who are depressed generally dislike being entrenched in "happy" settings (e.g. seeing happier people around them) because it reinforces feelings of isolation. I don't see why music would be any different. Put another way, misery loves company.

battletested 7y ago

Maybe because when you are depressed you want to hear something that resonates within you? But what is 'Sad' in music? I think you crave for depth in musical emotions, not particularly 'sad' when you are depressed.

Zaphods 7y ago

Is this that people with depression crave sad music, or that music meant to elicit pathos has found its target audience? > The controversial implication is that depressed people deliberately act in ways that are likely to maintain their low mood. How is this remotely controversial? Finding something you like is not the same as liking your state or disposition for depression. > “… may reflect a desire for calming emotional experience rather than a desire to augment sad feelings.” So, we've basically confirmed that people get pleasure out of liking things? This study seems weird.

LesZedCB 7y ago
Kurzgesagt had a really great video[1] on loneliness that described the downward spiral that people find themselves in. > > The controversial implication is that depressed people deliberately act in ways that are likely to maintain their low mood. > How is this remotely controversial? Finding something you like is not the same as liking your state or disposition for depression. i think that is controversial because it assigns agency to the person experiencing the depression, that they are causing their own depression. but the most common complaint from people with depression is that people are always telling them to "just cheer up" etc etc. this is the same sentiment in a specific context. "if you just didn't listen to depressing music all the time, maybe you wouldn't be so depressed." [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Xv_g3g-mA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Xv_g3g-mA
- Zaphods 7y ago
  Now I think we're running into the strange alleyways in our concept of depression. Do people with depression have no agency in their depression? I think it depends. Depression can be a disposition, ie. someone is disposed to being depressed but not always depressed. Depression can be a mental state, ie. I'm depressed right now. Depression can also be a clinical diagnosis, ie. you are lacking such and such chemical balance and that is your depression and you require such and such to "fix" it. Depression can be an emotion or a feeling, ie. I feel depressed, or that poet is describing or manifesting their depression in their words. Depression can be a cause and a reason, in the sense that one (an agent) gives a reason for their actions. The concept of depression has different degrees of agency. In some clinical cases, none at all. That seems controversial until you realize depression is a complex and flexible concept. This study seems to have not clarified what exactly they are talking about when they describe people as depressed.

telesilla 7y ago

I've always considered sad music a kind of ally - in lieu of a friend you can be quiet with and share your moment. It's a form of communication, and sad music is sharing, well, sadness. I think it makes isolated people feel less lonely. I'm also keen to hear the mentioned sad piece "Rakavot" by Avi Balili but it doesn't seem to exist online, does anyone have a reference?

rowlf 7y ago
Here it is: https://avibelleli.bandcamp.com/track/trains https://avibelleli.bandcamp.com/track/trains It's from a film soundtrack, used in the opening scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoC2PHu5f4I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoC2PHu5f4I Apparently, they transliterated the guy's name incorrectly (it's Belleli). I found it by searching in Hebrew at which point google managed to correct my spelling.

i_am_proteus 7y ago

When you feel completely disconnected from society, the right kind of music gives you something to connect to. Which is something.

RandomInteger4 7y ago

Boomerang effect. You go fast enough into a depressive state to actually feel something, have a good snotty sobbing cry, perhaps with that semi solid yellow stuff coming out of your sinuses, and then come out feeling refreshed and slightly embarrassed hoping you don't enter that state of mind again for a while.

hirundo 7y ago

As miserable as it is to be depressed there may also be something positively reinforcing about it. Anger and hate clearly have that going for them, would it be surprising if sadness does too? If so, listening to sad music may be attractive in that it helps people feel sad.

0_gravitas 7y ago

I think it goes further than just music. There is something that I have noticed in my life, when it comes to the people I'm drawn to and the people that are drawn to me. We all tend to share a particular similarity, in that we end up being 'darker' people in one way or another. When I say 'dark' I dont really mean like 'emo' or 'goth', but in the way that our humors are usually darker, and we all have either dealt with or are dealing with some kind of despair. I think it's a feeling of 'not being alone' when you are with someone who 'gets it', and it's a sort of warmth that you dont come across much in the day to day. I dont think dark people just like dark music, I think dark people like other dark people.

fragsworth 7y ago
Misery loves company.
- randcraw 7y ago
  In my experience, misery prefers solitude.
misterman0 7y ago
I can relate to this but I would never call myself "dark" even though I've been depressed more often than my peers. Instead I think I have experienced first hand more of the emotional spectrum than others might have and I consider this one of my strengths, that I have felt many things close to or within the realms of despair, without dying. I believe in and adhere to "what doesn't kill you will make you stronger".
okmokmz 7y ago
Agreed, I quickly found I didn't fit into the FAANG or California startup culture as it seemed to attract lots of, what I would consider, very preppy, overly positive, outgoing people. Definitely nothing wrong with that, but those aren't the kind of people I generally form strong bonds with. I've found Seattle to be a much better fit
_jal 7y ago
That's generally been my experience, too. I have had depressive stretches and pulled out of them, but have always been consistently a "dark" person. Dark doesn't mean unhappy. It isn't that I "only see negatives", as I've been told endlessly, or just have a dark sense of humor. It is also related being relatively good at security analysis, architecture and troubleshooting - I tend to naturally focus on faults and limits, and reach for a systemic view first. And any time you look at human systems, that's depressing. (That was a joke, there.) Musically, I used to be more exclusively "dark". That's changed as I've gotten older, but I still find most pop grating. The last few months I've been more on an active listening jag, after thinking I noticed Erik Satie-ish influences on Brian Eno, and then Laurie Anderson and Robert Fripp. (Eno acknowledged this in something I read, I'm less sure about Anderson. Fripp may have just been responding to Eno.)

G4BB3R 7y ago

It's math! -1 * -1 = 1

PaulHoule 7y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23v5_K7cXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23v5_K7cXk

sdegutis 7y ago

If you're interested in some philosophical perspectives of depression, you may find these pages as interesting as I did: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2038.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2038.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2037.htm http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2037.htm

CiPHPerCoder 7y ago

Responding to the headline: Because depression isn't sadness, it's a mental illness that causes a numbing, hollowing feeling that robs you of joy. In my experience, it's more akin to despair than sorrow. Feeling anything (even sadness) can help make it easier to cope with it if you're unable to seek effective treatment. Which is most people, probably. Most people I know who have depression can't (or won't) seek effective treatment, usually because of cost prohibition.

e12e 7y ago

My first thought seeing the headline was of this quote: "What came first – the music or the misery? Did I listen to the music because I was miserable? Or was I miserable because I listened to the music? Do all those records turn you into a melancholy person?" - Nick Hornby, High Fidelity Also relevant from the book: "People worry about kids playing with guns, and teenagers watching violent videos; we are scared that some sort of culture of violence will take them over. Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands - literally thousands - of songs about broken hearts and rejection and pain and misery and loss."

b_tterc_p 7y ago
Maybe I’m wrong but broken heart sad seems a lot more transient than older generations of sad music like, say, Pink Floyd’s The Wall and The Final Cut. I would wager it’s really not a problem.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Floyd have their own broken heart sad songs (Wish you where here, nobody home, and lotsa others). Though the Final Cut was a flop, and barely listened to/mentioned today, so kind of transient itself. But of course tons of 70s and 60s era music are "broken heart sad" as well -- it's not like some unique today phenomenon. Broken heart sad takes a good 50% of all songs since time immemorial... If anything, today it's not "broken heart sad" anymore, but some hip-hop/pop version of "how cool/rich I am" or "how badass I am", looking at the charts.
  - rednerrus 7y ago
    Wish you were here is not a broken heart sad song. It's about disillusionment.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      Not broken heart from a lover, but broken heart about a friend. Still a broken heart.

soylentcola 7y ago

Because "sad songs say so much" as Elton put it. It's probably considered a bit corny now, but it's dead-on. "From the lips of some old singer We can share the troubles we already know ... If someone else is suffering enough oh to write it down When every single word makes sense Then it's easier to have those songs around The kick inside is in the line that finally gets to you And it feels so good to hurt so bad And suffer just enough to sing the blues"

PavlovsCat 7y ago
When I write lyrics, it's only ever because something frustrates me. And I love serious lyrics in general... but I'm also really grateful for people who just see the good in the world and sing about it, like Bob Ross, but for music. That's just not me though. > If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair. -- C. S. Lewis > Altogether, I think we ought to read only books that bite and sting us. If the book does not shake us awake like a blow to the skull, why bother reading it in the first place? So that it can make us happy, as you put it? Good God, we'd be just as happy if we had no books at all; books that make us happy we could, in a pinch, also write ourselves. [..] A book must be the ax for the frozen sea within us. That is what I believe. -- Franz Kafka > You don't write those books because you hope those things will happen. You write those books because you think they might happen.. but you'd rather they didn't. -- Margaret Atwood Such are the thoughts with which I console myself, but still, this is the kind of person I make my stuff, which is solely "against", for: > To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacriﬁce, courage, kindness. What we choose to emphasize in this complex history will determine our lives. If we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places — and there are so many — where people have behaved magniﬁcently, this gives us the energy to act, and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act, in however small a way, we don’t have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an inﬁnite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in deﬁance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory. -- Howard Zinn

ZeroFries 7y ago

Music with harmonic frequencies is pleasing. The brain itself has frequencies which can be consonant/dissonant. As other commenters have mentioned, "happy" music is clashing/jarring (which is exactly what dissonance is like) when too far out of that mind-state. I think it's likely that the sound inputs are not harmonic/consonant with the brain's frequencies when the mind-state is much different. Thus, it's not just a matter of the degree of consonance of the input, since music sounds better or worse depending on the state of mind one is in, but the degree of consonance that the input induces in the brain's frequencies.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
> but the degree of consonance that the input induces in the brain's frequencies That sounds incredibly pseudosciencey. Why would the inputs of audible sound compare to your brainwaves? Given that light is also composed of frequencies, is there a link there as well, or because the numbers don't align as well, is it disregarded?
- ZeroFries 7y ago
  > Why would the inputs of audible sound compare to your brainwaves? Why wouldn't they affect brainwaves? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6130927/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6130927/ > Given that light is also composed of frequencies, is there a link there as well Sure https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17050390 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17050390 Not saying this is hard-science yet, just a hypothesis (not my own). You can read more here, if interested: https://qualiacomputing.com/2017/06/18/quantifying-bliss-talk-summary/ https://qualiacomputing.com/2017/06/18/quantifying-bliss-tal...
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    There's no doubt that light and sound affect the brain, our sense wouldn't function otherwise, I just have doubts about there being particular resonances or harmonics.

b_tterc_p 7y ago

I’m of the belief that a lot of depression is addiction and accumulated tolerance to the pleasure of being sad. Feeling intense sadness feels really good as your brain releases chemicals to make you feel better. When feeling sad, a lot of people will tell themselves the worst possible worldview they can conceive to get a surge of deeper sadness and thus relief. That being said, people tend to listen to music that validates their feelings regardless of the feeling so this isn’t surprising.

sedeki 7y ago
Does the brain really release feel-good chemicals? I’m not sure I believe that, but I am no expert. :) Some relatives to me, who are depressed, tend to immerse in self-pity, and that feels good to them. It’s like they live in their own bubble, with a biased interpretation of the world, and they are in the middle of it.
- b_tterc_p 7y ago
  Anecdata of one, yes, it feels very pleasurable, though it may be difficult to recognize this as it’s contextualized in sadness and negative thoughts. I’m referring to mostly mundane exaggerated teenage emotions mind you. Unless I’m just an emotional masochist, but I suspect not.
okmokmz 7y ago
This is absolutely ridiculous. Feeling intense sadness does not feel really good. People do not do things to "get a surge of deeper sadness and thus relief". This reads like someone who has never truly experienced depression, or even known anyone who was genuinely depressed. The implications you are making are offensive, unfounded, and incorrect
- b_tterc_p 7y ago
  I’m not saying people seek out being sad to attain pleasure. I’m saying that when people are already sad, pushing the buttons in your brain to explore that sadness results in a positive feeling. Science is already on board that crying releases oxytocin and endorphins. I’m merely suggesting that crying is not absolutely required for the brain offer a similar comforting response when sad. I further posit that given humans have a tendency to get addicted to any source of endorphins from phone screens to spicy peppers, they can and do get addicted to this one. If you want to triple down on strictness and say only crying gives pleasure from sadness... sure whatever. I’m not going to make that my hill to die on. Edit: and note that if someone did accumulate tolerance to natural calming emotional counteragents, that sounds like a very compelling setup for depression.

smrtinsert 7y ago

I find musical experience is sometimes push or pull. Occasionally a sad piece will push into that space, but sometimes you are already sad and you search for music to pull into that place with you.

pjmorris 7y ago

In the throes of what was, in retrospect, probably depression, I made a playlist of my 'blues', the saddest songs I knew, to try and get a handle on what I was feeling. Somehow knowing I wasn't unique in sorrow helped, as did hearing how others dealt with it, even in such a packaged form. Lots of other songs hit closer to home, but, somehow, 'Everybody Plays the Fool' by 'The Main Ingredient' always puts me in a better mood when it comes on.

MlkedChocolate 7y ago

If something hurts, we usually stop doing it (feedback loop), unless there is something else at play: some short term positives, like taking drugs. So depression (even without music) persists because it actually feels good in the short term. I remember when I was a child, and was crying, I could cry myself even more, by just thinking negative thoughts, it kinda felt good to 'release'. Music amplifies this, so I would say this is why depressed people 'enjoy' sad music. Then, I was taught not to have self-pity, and didn't really care to be sad any longer. Instead I chose to solve the problems or move on if they're not solvable. It's helped me. What do you think?

misterman0 7y ago

I can relate to pop music just fine but those tunes are shallow compared to the information packed songs from Radiohead. But I've never loved Radiohead for their melancholy. Only for their outstanding musical abilities. They also seem to be bright, clever, intelligent even, judging from their lyrics and interviews. I don't consider them dark. I consider them bright. I've been depressed tons of times. I'm bipolar, they tell me. But even outside of a depressive state I return to those artists that try a little harder than those who aim for the top lists. I think most other people who are depressive by nature, when they feel good about themselves they shy away from things that remind them of themselves in a depressive state. But I love being depressed. It's a much better feeling than being manic.

benc666 7y ago
Electric Light Orchestra. Music with a futuristic, but mixed pessimistic and bright outlook. And the orchestral contribution makes the backbone of it. If you like Science Fiction (especially reading it) you might like this too.

okmokmz 7y ago

I've always found "happy music" to be boring, annoying, and/or aggravating while what most people would consider angry or sad music is uplifting and can positively affect my mood and energy.

beat 7y ago

As a songwriter, I wonder why I write so many sad songs. Like, a lot of them. Really, really sad songs. I just wrote one last week, inspired by a scene from a science fiction novel. It tells the story of a small fleet of spaceships fleeing a doomed Earth for the stars, and one ship attacking the rest and killing their crews in order to steal their fuel and spare parts. It's not just that what they did is a crime... they knew it was wrong, did it anyway, and feel terrible about it, but they also knew that if they didn't do it, another ship would have done it to them. So it's all guilt and shame from making a totally selfish decision. Why would I write that way? And it's not like this is an unusual subject for me. Part of it, I think, is that I do a very good job of covering up some deep depression in my day-to-day life. I'm a much sadder person than I appear to be.

moosey 7y ago
> they knew it was wrong I know which book series this was part of, and this action was the correct one to take. I feel as if the entire point of the book is that at some point, we need to make collective decisions, and when we do so, we all need to share in the responsibility of those decisions. The decision not to protect each human life as some kind of infinite well of value is an unusually narcissistic form of collectivism, I think, and only possible in highly developed nations. I believe that at some point, the reality of resource depletion or pollution, possibly war, will come to a head, and we will have to abandon this view.
- beat 7y ago
  I've heard some criticism of that series of "Can't relate to the characters". I suspect that it's because the perspective is so strongly Chinese, rather than American. The situation of the scene isn't something an American would even think of, y'know? A big part of the beauty and thrill of that scene, for me, was all of these people recognizing the problem, and the solution, and the horror of the solution, at the same time.
  - amblingalpaca 7y ago
    Do you have any recommendations for other books, movies, or shows that "sparked horror" as well as that event did? The closest I think I've come since was Blindsight's revelation on how the aliens functioned, but it wasn't nearly as cinematic.

nickelcitymario 7y ago

TL;dr: "This study is unable to speak to why depressed people find low-energy, sad music uplifting [...]"

krupan 7y ago

Wait, is it only depressed people that like sad music? What about stories with tragic endings? There must be a lot of depressed people to have made these things so popular over the years.

okmokmz 7y ago
Nowhere in the article did it state that only depressed people like sad music, just that they are more likely to choose sad music than the controls

pdfernhout 7y ago

Here is an excerpt from an interview with a music therapist about grief and music (written by a wise and caring friend of mine from long ago): "Music: A Natural Accompaniment to Grief Work: An Interview with Music Therapist Lauren DiMaio, PhD. (Story by Katherine Caldwell)" https://missionhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/October_2018.pdf https://missionhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/October... "During grief, many aspects of our life are raw and painful. It’s common to believe we’re better off avoiding them. But magically, on invisible waves of sound, a piece of music can penetrate into pain we swear was carefully locked away. Within a few chords we can go from “doing just fine” to a searing confrontation with heartache. Of course you might ask: why would we purposely want to do that to ourselves? Grief is tough enough without exposing ourselves to tunes that leave us emotionally wrung out. Perhaps it’s only to say that music is strong medicine. “If a certain piece of music is unbearable, don’t listen to it.” says Dr. DiMaio, “Acknowledge that it’s not helpful at that time. Accept that the piece is only useful in gauging your place on the grief journey at that time.” When confronting the heaviest part of grief, that certain song or hymn, or even a whole genre of music may be impossible to take in. Sad songs of heartbreak or loneliness may, out of respect for our vulnerability, need to be avoided at certain times. Trust your instincts, but don’t turn your back on music completely. Fortunately, music takes infinite forms. If sad tunes are off limits, go on a search for a more joyful noise. Surround yourself with music that speaks to another part of you: songs of celebration and gratitude, or melodies that uplift the spirit. If the music you once loved brings you down these days, it might be appropriate to explore new types of music, things you’ve never listened to before. Changing our internal vibration is what grief recovery is ultimately about on a molecular level. Exposure to inspiring vibrations, even externally, can help us change internally. Finding new music has become easier than ever. Internet searches and downloads make everything published in the music industry readily available, including lyrics." While grief and depression are not identical, there is a lot of overlap.

massung 7y ago

Doesn't this presume that "sad music" is - in fact - sad? There's plenty of music I will sit and listen to that my daughter asks me to turn off because it makes her sad, but I find very uplifting. Examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpvEgJEn94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpvEgJEn94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIcR7Xkysds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIcR7Xkysds There are plenty of other examples as well. All the studies reveal to me is that we're all wired a little different. Shocker.

jplayer01 7y ago
Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. "Sad" songs make me feel better. I'm not sure why.
- randcraw 7y ago
  I think music is a mirror that provides contrast. If the music is more depressing than you are, you feel less depressed. But if the music is happier than you are, you appreciate that you're more unhappy, and that makes you feel worse.
pier25 7y ago
We're culturally conditioned to associate certain patterns to certain emotions. Personally I find those two examples you posted as melancholic and solemn, which I love. If you put those same tracks to an African tribe which has never heard (let's call it) European music, I doubt they'd feel sadness or melancholy. Maybe they wouldn't feel anything at all.

markbnine 7y ago

My dad often said, "When you are cold, eat ice cream. It lowers your mean temperature." That said, we always knew he just wanted ice cream.

baddox 7y ago

I’m a bit confused with the premise. It seems like the article is assuming that sad music makes people sad, then wondering specifically why depressed people would listen to sad music. But why would anyone listen to sad music if the premise was true? Isn’t it much more likely that the whole reason sad music exists is that it helps people deal with their sadness, not that it causes sadness? Under this hypothesis, it’s not surprising at all that depressed people would listen to a lot of sad music.

mikorym 7y ago

I've always liked sad music. But I have to say that I don't associate such music with sadness. Rather more with overcoming things? I am not sure. When I compose music I focus a lot on half intervals, especially things like major 7th chords and their derivitives. Obligatory self promotion here: [1]. [1] https://soundcloud.com/philliplyznav/sonic-safety https://soundcloud.com/philliplyznav/sonic-safety

altendo 7y ago

As a volunteer at a crisis center, I can tell you that the thing that people most want to hear when they are sad, depressed, or otherwise in crisis is that they want to validate what feelings that they have. In a word, they are feeling awful and want to sit in that feeling, and the music helps listeners process that feeling.

david-cako 7y ago

The album Lateralus by Tool goes a step further for me. It strikes a balance between depressed and optimistic unlike any other.

egypturnash 7y ago

Personally I find that I can use certain sad music to push through vague mopey depression into a state where I can do something about it. If I just sit there being sad and useless I’m gonna start feeling sad about how long I’ve been sitting there moping and it’s a horrible downward spiral. If I lay there on the floor in the dark with headphones on listening to a double album full of exquisitely constructed instrumental crystals of particular flavors of sadness then I am likely to actually start crying and find some release from the endless circles around the mental drain. Or I might also start laughing at what a caricature of an emotion I’m being by doing this - and then the sadness is banished in another way. Aphex Twin’s “Selected Ambient Works, Volume 2” is my go-to album for this. That or Nine Inch Nails if I want to be more angry. Which probably tells you a lot about my age.

mediaman 7y ago
Getting sad enough to cry is a good technique, because tears from strong emotion have been found to carry stress hormones with them out of the body. Crying also releases endorphins which can help you recover from a feeling of sadness. So yes, it's pretty reasonable to feel mopey but unable to extricate yourself until and unless you can push yourself far enough to cry, at which your body's own biology lifts you out of feeling mopey.

formalsystem 7y ago

My impression is that sad music tends to have more substance than happy music. Happy pop music is especially guilty of this where: "it's the summer, everyone is having a good time etc..." I'm really drawn to metal because it creates something beautiful out of difficult emotions. I actually don't get the association to anger at all, it's like saying people who like watching action movies are psychopaths. I would argue that more art is rooted in pain than in happiness.

asark 7y ago
Fundamentally, there's no narrative, in the sense of a story or an emotional journey, without conflict. Luke may blow up the Death Star, but Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru got BBQ'd, Obi Wan died, and a lot of friendly pilots were vaporized along the way. And that's a relatively happy movie. Moreover, to the extent that art is to help us grapple with difficult things, well... happiness isn't that difficult. Now, good circumstances but unhappy anyway? Then you've got something to build a story on.

TaupeRanger 7y ago

As usual in reporting and PR around brain/mind science, the "why" question posed in the title is not even remotely addressed or even approached by the study. That would, of course, require a theory about why people feel things at all, and why the feelings feel like they do and not some other way, which we are still woefully ignorant about. The greater (and more general) question here is: why do humans seek out things that make them feel negative emotions? People watch horror movies wanting to be scared. They watch romantic comedies knowing that they will cry sad tears at some point. They read stories containing evil villains who kill and cause great suffering.

wccrawford 7y ago

As a generally-happy person, I quite like happy songs. I tend to like them more than sad or angry songs. I'm guessing this is because I identify with them so much more. And I'm guessing that sad people identify with sad things strongly as well. Perhaps "like" is the wrong word in the title. Perhaps "prefer" is better.

gnode 7y ago

I think music has appeal because it's information, albeit processed at a low level, not because it's a mood-altering drug. As with all media, consumers want to feel it's "true". When consuming new information, we need to find something that resonates with our existing understanding to believe its meaningful, and not noise. Somber music feels more like it contains meaning to a person with a somber outlook. Joyful music in that case feels meaningless to the listener, because it fails to connect with what they already understand.

johnchristopher 7y ago

> The second part of the study used new music samples: 84 pairs of 10-second clips of instrumental film music, contrasting happy, sad, fear-inducing, neutral, and also high and low energy tracks. In each case the same participants as before indicated which music they’d prefer to listen to again later. They also heard all the samples again at the end and stated what effect they had on their emotions. The researchers found again that people with depression had a far greater preference than controls for sad, low-energy music (but not fear-inducing music). Critically, though, when they heard these clips again, they reported that they made them feel more happiness and less sadness, contradicting the provocative idea that depressed people are seeking to perpetuate their low mood. Could we control for the musical complexity structure of the samples ? Something along the lines of "complex musical structures pleases depressed people because it requires concentration and cognitive skills that aren't available for negative thoughts pattern" ?

randyrand 7y ago

Why do sad people like to cry? I think it’s the same answer.

Zenst 7y ago

I find that actually embrassing the depression and be that music or a sad film and letting those negative emotions have focus in a form of distraction. The upside is that after such exposure, the contrast of reality helps raise the mood. Obviously it's not a golden solution and the level of improvement varies as long-standing life issues are still there. But instead of fighting the depression and feeling more down as you end up failing your own standards - fueling the depression. I find embracing it, have a dam good cry, have no shame in expressing such emotions and with that cut of much of the fuel that whilst does not soley instigate the depression but more prolongs it. Just helps. Nothing worse than feeling down, and then feeling even more down because your expectation is that you should not feel down. It's a vicious circle of fueling and depressive period. That and worry about how others percieve it and the whole social stigma's of it being a weakness. So being mindful of such a mood and embracing the mood with a good solid cry, whilst not intuitively what you feel will help, actually does. Real key part is that you take control of the depression more than letting the depression take control of you, and by embracing and accepting it you take that step back into a driving seat. But music is really useful for fixing moods, equally in todays noise poluted enviroments that cause micro-stress (stress you hardly notice but all add up), headphones work wonders. As I have found that stress can and does impact and induce depression. It is identifying those area's of micro-stress and dealing with them that help keep stress in check and with that, depression. But everybody is an individual, so no solution will work for everybody. Though the side-effects of music are far less than any pharmaceutical offering. I'd also suggest, try an old album from better times, For me Blondie Parallel Lines does the trick. Equally some emotionally cold electronic music like some John Foxx renditions help to focus the mood, for me at least. Not what I'd call sad music (though some could), more what I'd class as totally emotionless in many ways.

bumbledraven 7y ago

In order to successfully replicate, the depression meme must get you to feel depressed in the future. Encouraging an interest in sad music can be a part of that cycle.

RichardCA 7y ago

Funny I was just thinking about this... I'm actually more productive with music that has a melancholy tone. But it has to be instrumental, human voices are extremely distracting. Some Chopin works. Some Boards of Canada works. I also get good results with Studio Ghibli soundtrack music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LEmer7wwHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LEmer7wwHI

pyython 7y ago

I had an epiphany a few years ago related to this while in the midst of a depressive episode. A friend commented on my music selections: "Why do you listen to such sad music?" It caught me completely off guard because to me these were not sad songs but very comforting. I had no awareness that these songs could be interpreted as sad at that time. Looking back it's obvious, but at the time it was just what I felt drawn to...

ravenstine 7y ago

In my experience, music that matches my mood makes me fee less alone. I had some tough times when I was a teenager, and didn't seriously get into music until I discovered Rammstein(my favorite band to this day). To most people, it's very brutal sounding, often angry, sometimes depressing. My parents had no idea why I listened to some German guy growling in front of "rock music". My whole world was changed because, finally, someone else expressed how I feel. Now, the lyrics themselves are often grotesque or even silly, but I didn't understand most of it and what they were saying didn't matter to me anyway. I was comforted by the fact that these guys could put into music what I could fail to put into words or deal with in my own life. Simply speaking, I find such music to be cathartic. Actually, lots of different moods of music can be cathartic, but negative music sticks out in that category because we're expected to listen to music that "lifts us up". I think that's why I actually become more depressed by listening to happy music when I'm sad; it's as if the world is telling me that I shouldn't feel the way that I do. Having my feelings recognized by music is about as good as having someone tell me that it's okay to feel bad about my situation.

topicseed 7y ago

I love the title and then... "This study is unable to speak to why depressed people find low-energy, sad music uplifting"

ktran03 7y ago

Depressed people feel lonely. When you hear a sad song, you relate to the artist. Knowing someone else out there has also been in your situation, makes you feel less lonely.

pavon 7y ago

When I'm fairly depressed, my goal is just to get to neutral. Trying to skip strait to happy is counter-productive. In that state of mind, happiness doesn't seem attainable or even real, it is a lie and a facade. Trying to talk myself into being happy is at best empty hype, as I can't genuinely embrace or believe the words I am saying. Happy music, or happy environments are likewise unembracable. When surrounded by them when depressed, I inevitably just retract into my head. This is a waste of time at best - being around people or participating in an activity but not present or enjoying it. At worst it can lead to spiraling negative thoughts that drag me deeper down. Listening to "sad" music on the other hand can be very theraputic. Sometimes, it intensifies the feelings, confronting them, pushing through them, burning them inside of me. Othertimes, I melt into the music, letting go of my thoughts and feelings, letting them seep calmly out of me. I think it partly depends on exactly how I'm feeling: self-hatred or hopelessness or numb. Either way I come out the other end with a sense of relief, and evened out. At this point I can move onto activities that are enjoyable, but not ones that are taxing (eg socializing) or which require lots of decisions to second-guess (eg coding), or can be frustrating (eg video games). For example, reading or whittling are good stepping-stone activities for me. Listening to upbeat music at this point can also help to continue the progression to a happier state, but I have to be careful not to overshoot with music that is too happy or driving.

shivo 7y ago

The Saddest Landscape and Arthur Rubinstein is sad but also emotional. Usually, only listened to once then I'll switch to more mellow playlists. I'm encouraged by the everyone's recommendations.

newnewpdro 7y ago

Misery loves company. Music, films, books, they're virtual companions.

DINKDINK 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophily https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophily

salamanderman 7y ago

In my case, one of the symptoms of my anxiety and depression is to seek out things that make my more worried and sad. It confirms and amplifies my catastrophic thinking. I gather this is a fairly common mode.

grwthckrmstr 7y ago

LoFi

rainhacker 7y ago

So Google/Youtube knows when I'm sad.

HNLurker2 7y ago
No joke this article came in rescue at the exact time. I don't know if you are aware of the "doomer meme" (painfully relatable) but there are this videos with gosh damn songs that makes you fall in bottomless pit with others and then in the comment section where people discuss their misfortunes. E.g video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TNVqOmJc-YY&t=2s https://youtube.com/watch?v=TNVqOmJc-YY&t=2s I think the only way I can fix this is too make videos too and gradually, just like the guy above said make them uplifting:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19743173. 1:48 Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 - Strauss and then uplifting music.