5 ms·

Canada has a professional software engineering organization, at least in some provinces. That said, they talk a lot about ethics but then award first place at a

Canada has a professional software engineering organization, at least in some provinces. That said, they talk a lot about ethics but then award first place at a local engineering competition to a team that tracks people's position and movements without them knowing using their cell signals (for use in airports), so maybe it doesn't do any good. Great technical work by them mind you.

armagon 7y ago
I'm a Canadian coder ... and my first thought, reading your comment, was, "We do?"
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  I think Canada has had a professional, and pretty serious, association of engineers (in the traditional sense) for a long, long time. Maybe the software thing is a spin-off of that.
  - mfoy_ 7y ago
    In Ontario, at least, "engineer" is a protected designation. http://www.peo.on.ca/ http://www.peo.on.ca/
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - jammygit 7y ago
      Alberta too. The regulation is coming on very gradually since they're confused about how to define and regulate the title/practice. The regulation won't necessarily help anything but to outlaw a lot of smart people from being able to write certain software. It will put us further behind the USA in our ability to create tech companies that matter (or that can compete with offshoring) and lead to higher unemployment as computers take away more jobs. Luckily the restriction is barely enforced at this point, though it is getting stricter. I guess it will benefit me in the future when somebody will be forced to hire me because there weren't enough other applicants with professional membership... sort of a depressing thought
      - Zaphods 7y ago
        > The regulation won't necessarily help anything but to outlaw a lot of smart people from being able to write certain software. It will put us further behind the USA in our ability to create tech companies that matter (or that can compete with offshoring) Has any of that happened with engineers in Canada? We still have plenty of engineers. A lot of this comes off as any industry wanting to hold onto the engineer title without any of the accountability that should come along with it, or really any accountability at all. I don't want a random self taught engineer involved in building my house or a local highway overpass. So why would I also want a random self taught software engineer working on vital computer systems or on autonomous vehicles or on the software that controls the pitch controls on a Boeing 737? Software is not just some shit-tier SaaS app. It being hard to get official credation means accepting holding oneself to high (legal) standards. If that means lots of people have to go around calling themselves a developer instead of an engineer then I'm fine with that. It might seem depressing that we hold engineers to high standards and expect legal accountability for the things they sign off on or create or approve, but I think more accountability in the tech industry is a good thing. The modern tech industry and software engineers hold themselves to ludicrously low standards because they basically operate on the idea that innovation = good and if-it-makes-money it must also be good. I know fast food workers who are held to higher standards than software engineers. That many continue to call themselves engineers is mainly just a hold over from a metaphor that describes computer systems as "architecture". Software is a big deal and it effects every fabric of daily life in 2019. We shouldn't treat it like it's ephemeral stuff that has no consequences beyond the next VC exit or going public.
        icebraining 7y ago
        > Software is not just some shit-tier SaaS app. I think the fear is that the same restrictions will affect shit-tier apps as well as aeronautic control software. After all, it's not like you can't already say "to work on aeronautic software you must have credential X or Y". So what's the point of restricting the word "engineer" as a whole?
        Zaphods 7y ago
  - g-harel 7y ago
    It's definitely not a spin off, "Software Engineers" are a part of the order, but not "Computer Scientists".
  - owldimoon 7y ago
    For my province in particular, this sounds like APEGBC, now known as EGBC. https://www.egbc.ca/About https://www.egbc.ca/About
  - cjslep 7y ago
    > I think Canada has had a professional, and pretty serious, association of engineers (in the traditional sense) Looks at ring on the pinky of his working hand Yep.
obenn 7y ago
The Candian Association For IT Professionals (cips.ca) administers the only nationally recognized IT designation, called the I.S.P (think of it like a P.Eng for computer scientists). Their goal is to make this a requirement for the handling of certain types of sensitive data, as one needs to swear by a code of ethics in order to become a bearer.
- mr_toad 7y ago
  A lot of sensitive data processing isn’t done by engineers or developers, it’s done by data scientists, statisticians and economists. How do they plan to handle that?
  - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
    Statisticians and social scientists already have ethical codes and are trained in research ethics throughout their academic careers. Speaking as a social scientist, i was shocked at how little of this made it into industry.

armagon 7y ago

I'm a Canadian coder ... and my first thought, reading your comment, was, "We do?"

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
I think Canada has had a professional, and pretty serious, association of engineers (in the traditional sense) for a long, long time. Maybe the software thing is a spin-off of that.
- mfoy_ 7y ago
  In Ontario, at least, "engineer" is a protected designation. http://www.peo.on.ca/ http://www.peo.on.ca/
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jammygit 7y ago
    Alberta too. The regulation is coming on very gradually since they're confused about how to define and regulate the title/practice. The regulation won't necessarily help anything but to outlaw a lot of smart people from being able to write certain software. It will put us further behind the USA in our ability to create tech companies that matter (or that can compete with offshoring) and lead to higher unemployment as computers take away more jobs. Luckily the restriction is barely enforced at this point, though it is getting stricter. I guess it will benefit me in the future when somebody will be forced to hire me because there weren't enough other applicants with professional membership... sort of a depressing thought
    - Zaphods 7y ago
      > The regulation won't necessarily help anything but to outlaw a lot of smart people from being able to write certain software. It will put us further behind the USA in our ability to create tech companies that matter (or that can compete with offshoring) Has any of that happened with engineers in Canada? We still have plenty of engineers. A lot of this comes off as any industry wanting to hold onto the engineer title without any of the accountability that should come along with it, or really any accountability at all. I don't want a random self taught engineer involved in building my house or a local highway overpass. So why would I also want a random self taught software engineer working on vital computer systems or on autonomous vehicles or on the software that controls the pitch controls on a Boeing 737? Software is not just some shit-tier SaaS app. It being hard to get official credation means accepting holding oneself to high (legal) standards. If that means lots of people have to go around calling themselves a developer instead of an engineer then I'm fine with that. It might seem depressing that we hold engineers to high standards and expect legal accountability for the things they sign off on or create or approve, but I think more accountability in the tech industry is a good thing. The modern tech industry and software engineers hold themselves to ludicrously low standards because they basically operate on the idea that innovation = good and if-it-makes-money it must also be good. I know fast food workers who are held to higher standards than software engineers. That many continue to call themselves engineers is mainly just a hold over from a metaphor that describes computer systems as "architecture". Software is a big deal and it effects every fabric of daily life in 2019. We shouldn't treat it like it's ephemeral stuff that has no consequences beyond the next VC exit or going public.
      - icebraining 7y ago
        > Software is not just some shit-tier SaaS app. I think the fear is that the same restrictions will affect shit-tier apps as well as aeronautic control software. After all, it's not like you can't already say "to work on aeronautic software you must have credential X or Y". So what's the point of restricting the word "engineer" as a whole?
        Zaphods 7y ago
- g-harel 7y ago
  It's definitely not a spin off, "Software Engineers" are a part of the order, but not "Computer Scientists".
- owldimoon 7y ago
  For my province in particular, this sounds like APEGBC, now known as EGBC. https://www.egbc.ca/About https://www.egbc.ca/About
- cjslep 7y ago
  > I think Canada has had a professional, and pretty serious, association of engineers (in the traditional sense) Looks at ring on the pinky of his working hand Yep.

obenn 7y ago

The Candian Association For IT Professionals (cips.ca) administers the only nationally recognized IT designation, called the I.S.P (think of it like a P.Eng for computer scientists). Their goal is to make this a requirement for the handling of certain types of sensitive data, as one needs to swear by a code of ethics in order to become a bearer.

mr_toad 7y ago
A lot of sensitive data processing isn’t done by engineers or developers, it’s done by data scientists, statisticians and economists. How do they plan to handle that?
- disgruntledphd2 7y ago
  Statisticians and social scientists already have ethical codes and are trained in research ethics throughout their academic careers. Speaking as a social scientist, i was shocked at how little of this made it into industry.