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I suppose I'm happy that the fourth amendment was upheld, but from a privacy perspective I'm disheartened. A chalked tire was ephemeral. I doubt that whatever
by thefifthsetpin 7y ago
I suppose I'm happy that the fourth amendment was upheld, but from a privacy perspective I'm disheartened.
A chalked tire was ephemeral. I doubt that whatever replaces it will be.
- kd5bjo 7y agoGiven this ruling, the 2012 ruling about GPS trackers, and the ubiquity of number plate scanners, it’s possible someone could challenge the constitutionality of requiring license plates on vehicles — they’re not all black model Ts anymore, so there’s less need for the registration number to be visible a mile away.
- ScottFree 7y agoIf it goes that route, even the legality of using of drug sniffing dogs comes into question.
- sgustard 7y agoI'd imagine drug dogs sniffing you while you walk down a public street to be unconstitutional. At airports, concert venues, and so on, it seems like you've already consented to being searched.
- chrisdhoover 7y agoThey should be unconstitutional.
- ScottFree 7y agoAccording to whom?
- DINKDINK 7y agoIf the state hasn't shown that an accused has committed a crime before the state trespassed but needs to trespass first to then dig up an ex-post justification for trespassing witch hunts develop.
- ScottFree 7y agoAnd yet, the supreme court has upheld the use of drug sniffing dogs for traffic stops.
- MertsA 7y agoAnd yet, their accuracy is poor to say the least and no objective, informed, reasonable person would conclude that a drug dog scratching someone's paint would be considered probable cause. But here we are.
- DINKDINK 7y agoThe rationale is probably that smelling the air around a car is not trespass.
- ScottFree 7y agoDrug sniffing dogs aren't accurate. You might as well allow the cop to flip a coin and if it comes up heads he has probable cause to search the vehicle. Combine that with civil asset forfeiture laws and you have a nasty incentive. Cops have been caught giving their dogs signals to bark so they can seize the car.
- stestagg 7y agoIf the dog had a collar that sprayed you with chalk to indicate you’d been sniffed...
- dragonwriter 7y agoBoth the GPS and the chalking cases involved a government officer committing a physical trespass. Requiring you to affix a registration plate isn't remotely similar. So, while there might be a challenge available, the GPS and chalking cases don't really pace the way for it in any substantive new way.
- mental1896 7y agoSo all they'd need to do is compel the driver to chalk his own car?
- joncp 7y agoThey already require you to affix a sticker inside the window in many places. That's the same thing.
- tuukkah 7y agoOr to buy a 2-hour parking license for your license plate online.
- roywiggins 7y agoYou could just require a permit to park, and permits are issued by a ticket machine, and are valid for 2 hours (or whatever). Cars without prominently displayed tickets are fined, and cars with expired tickets also. Without the physical intrusion, I don't think this ruling would apply at all.
- dragonwriter 7y ago> So all they'd need to do is compel the driver to chalk his own car? The typical method along those lines is paying at a machine, getting a receipt, and posting the receipt visibly inside the windshield or the street side window, but, yes. This was about physical trespass for information without sufficient cause, not a right not to have parking time tracked.
- 7y ago
- seattle_spring 7y agoOh good, even less chance to catch hit and runs. Removing license plates would mean a field day for criminals all to appease a few tinfoil hat wearers.
- thinkloop 7y agoImagine having to plate and infringe upon 300+ million people just to appease some hit-and-run foil pants wearers
- acct1771 7y agoTinfoil amplifies signals. That, and "conspiracy theorist", are propaganda terms, and should be rejected.
- chapium 7y agoIf you have the correct vitamin supplements you can dampen your output.
- seattle_spring 7y agoYeah, no. /r/conspiracy has a 1000 comment thread that witchhunts people at my friend's company because it shared an address in SF with some dating site loosely related to Hillary Clinton. People I cared about were literally threatened with their lives.
- acct1771 7y agoEverybody that reads about conspiracies, or discusses conspiracy theory, must be just like those people. ...wow.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoCriminals already just use stolen cars and/or stolen plates.
- donatj 7y ago
- harlanji 7y agoMountain View, CA is already using automated roving photo technology to enforce the 72 hour parking limitation (anti-RV living). Personally I have a coherent position on data retention that could apply to any DB like this and make it ephemeral. Legislation about data retention with room for lossy aggregates like counts.
- blobbers 7y agoWhat do you think the chances are that some city IT department screws that up?
- beverlyhills 7y agoIn Beverly Hills, a shocking percentage of people drive without license plates. Most are dealer advertisement plates. The cops rarely pull people over for this. I like the idea of reverse regulations. Like I shouldn’t have to display my license plate unless I’ve been cited as a dangerous driver.
- acct1771 7y agoOhio does similar to this with "party plates".
- gwillen 7y agoThis only became illegal on January 1, 2019. Before that there was a grace period. So you're going to see a lot less of it.
- colejohnson66 7y agoThis is actually how Steve Jobs got away with not having a license plate. He just got a new car every 5-6 months (the grace period is 6 months)
- Raphmedia 7y agoWhat would stop someone from doing crimes if all car were anonymous?
- acct1771 7y agoThe same thing that stopped people 50-100 years ago. Actual police work.
- Raphmedia 7y agoYou would replace photo radars, red light cameras and automatic paying tolls with actual employees? That sound like a waste of manpower. Does that also mean that petrol is now free since you could just fill up and drive away without ever being recognized? Or are we also putting someone at each pump to make sure nobody drives away? This would also make actual police investigation harder. How would you call the police on someone driving recklessly without being able to provide the plate? What about when they need to find someone that has a done a crime? Should they close down traffic and search every single cars of the same color and make as the criminal's? The only way removing plates would work is if you replace it with something more invasive (i.e. facial recognition). In short, you could do any crimes you currently do with a stolen car or fake plates without any effort.
- tempestn 7y agoRe petrol, you could do what's done everywhere in Canada as far as I know, which is simply have people pay at the pump before filling. (And yes, it works for filling the tank too, since you can authorize a larger amount than is spent.)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Raphmedia 7y agoI can't talk about all of Canada but I know that those pump before paying stations are still quite common in the eastern provinces during daytime hours.
- Gibbon1 7y agoThe government is in it rights to very specifically limit what people/corporations/muni's can do with license plate data.
- DINKDINK 7y agoSay a savant in your neighborhood has been able to memorize everyone's license plate, when and where they park. This violates a privacy law on data retention. Do you advocate fining and imprisoning the savant for the facets of her mind? Would you advocate that if this information ended up in a book, that the government should start collecting these books and destroying them? Maybe in a fire? like a book burning?
- Gibbon1 7y ago> Do you advocate fining and imprisoning the savant for the facets of her mind? No I advocate not taking you seriously from now on.
- DINKDINK 7y ago>> Do you advocate fining and imprisoning the savant for the facets of her mind? >No >The government is in it rights to very specifically limit what people[...] can do with license plate data. Ok, thanks for retracting your previous position, for a second there you were advocating for people to be imprisoned for things they do with their mind.
- anbop 7y agoThe Constitution isn’t code, so new behaviors can’t be stumbled into like a buffer overflow. There is no national outrage over license plates and everyone seems pretty OK with them so the Court is not going to throw a massive wrench into society for no reason by making them unconstitutional.
- colejohnson66 7y agoA huge chunk of the population is fine with Trump blocking people he doesn’t like, and a court ruled that unconstitutional. Just because a huge chunk of people support it doesn’t mean it should be legal and upheld in court.
- anbop 7y agoBut that’s a new behavior. How can license plates suddenly become illegal after 100 years, unless there is an “evolving standard of decency” in this regard?
- all2 7y agoMany cities have vehicles that are covered with cameras, read your license plate, and make a database entry.
- kleiba 7y agoAnd chalk on tires is unconstitutional?
- cardiffspaceman 7y agoI guess you're thinking of privacy while the court was thinking of trespass in terms of property and property damage. The chalk affects the tire, so property damage. The camera doesn't affect the tire, so no property damage. Both affect privacy: the chalk mark signifies that you parked somewhere where they mark tires and the camera records that you were in some spot.
- cjensen 7y agoFor what it's worth: Palo Alto already tracks parking electronically. The good part of this is that you can't just repark in a different space to avoid a ticket; this encourages people to have a real plan for the entire time they need parking. Perhaps the US government or the states should enact data retention laws to ensure stuff gets purged in order to avoid the downsides of a surveillance state.
- pmiller2 7y agoPalo Alto’s system is very successful at keeping me out of Palo Alto, and I think that’s actually the point. There’s nothing I can think of that in Palo Alto that’s worth dealing with their parking situation.
- aidos 7y agoThis stuff can be a pain though. I drop my daughter off at a club on Saturday mornings. I need to pay for parking for an hour, even though I only need 10 minutes but then I can’t return for 2 hours. So actually, I need to pay for 2 hours upfront so I can come back to collect later.
- village-idiot 7y agoYou're in the minority where it affects you negatively. The main purpose of street front parking meters, aside from revenue, is to encourage people to get in and get out. Parking is a limited resource designed to support local businesses, whose revenue scales with the number of visits, not their duration.
- closeparen 7y agoThis assumes that the purpose of a visit is retail shopping, which is in decline. Downtown use is shifting towards experiences (restaurants, coffee shops, etc) where lingering a while is an essential feature.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- foolfoolz 7y agoit's ridiculous how much cars are ephemeral today. you have to read a physical license plate to know which car it is, possibly even a vin number. registration is tracked on your car by a 2 inch sticker soon enough (realistically 15-20 years) license plates may still be around but no one is going to use them. the car is going to identify itself electronically. and i am a huge personal freedoms and privacy supporter but i am all for this.
- roywiggins 7y agoThey're already being piloted. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/06/01/616043976/digital-license-plates-roll-out-in-california https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/06/01/616043976...
- notJim 7y ago> the devices are also able to show ads Ahh of course. Heaven forbid anyone ever not be looking at an ad.
- stordoff 7y agoWhy? I'm not seeing the benefit of this.
- thinkingemote 7y ago>i am a huge personal freedoms and privacy supporter but i am all for this. Not that huge
- legohead 7y agokind of funny this came about after someone broke the law 15 times, not for any real invasion of privacy or property.
- xfitm3 7y agoIn my area parking enforcement has ALPR. The computer tells them when to stop and issue a citation. Pole mounted ALPRs are popping up in major intersections, and along two lane roads in wealthy areas. All of the mobile "Your speed is" trailers also have ALPR. You can leave your phone at home, but law enforcement still knows where you're at.
- threatofrain 7y agoI think if we allow cameras in the many public space then in a sense can always be geographically tracked. Also if we assume that dropping things in public means we forfeited any privacy concerns, like our DNA from skin cells, or our fingerprints from cups, in a way we already have the line of privacy drawn very far back.
- tempestn 7y agoYep, my thought was that it was only a matter of time (probably not much) before chalking was replaced with cameras connected to computers anyway.
- cryptonector 7y agoExactly. The traffic cop can just write down the license plates, take pictures, whatever is convenient. The city could use cameras and automate a great deal of the process. All without ever touching the car except for placing the ticket on the windshield when it's issued (and why is that not trespassing?! probably because by then the officer has evidence of a violation, thus curing the trespass).
- esturk 7y agoIf you read the article, the 4th amendment has 2 parts. Is it a search and is it reasonable. Chalking is not reasonable because at the moment of chalking, the car is in a legal position. Placing a ticket is reasonable because at the time of placement, it is no longer in a legal position. Otherwise no one can place parking tickets no more.
- cryptonector 7y agoIsn't that what I wrote?
- jiveturkey 7y agospray the time notation between the front and back tires. (with chalk). the tool will be 600x the cost of chalk-on-a-stick but at least it's a durable 1x capex.
- rsync 7y ago"A chalked tire was ephemeral. I doubt that whatever replaces it will be." I suspect you are right and share your foreboding... However, a very easy solution would be to just mark the asphalt around the tires ... maybe write "blue chevy" between the marks. So easy. Instead, a politically connected services firm will capture local mayors / council members (very, very cheaply - shockingly cheaply) and build it into their unnecessary speed/redlight camera systems.
- NotAnEconomist 7y agoCops with license plate scanners that also check for warrants and cross reference your movements over time is my guess.
- sathackr 7y agoAnd then the police departments sell the information to 3rd party advertising companies to make up for shortfalls in their budget.
- burkaman 7y agoThat's error-prone (what if another blue chevy replaces it?), and takes 10 times as long as a simple mark, and doesn't work when the road is sandy or wet, and you need some quick way to erase the last marks, etc. I can't think of anything nearly as quick and cheap and effective as a chalk mark on the tire.
- stale2002 7y agoI can think of a way. Police could walk around with a hand held license plate scanner, that electronically tracks the general location of the parking space, and the car. I bet this could be done with a phone app, actually.
- coderintherye 7y agoIn urban areas the city could even work with local property owners to place video cameras that have enough angle to be able to have a constant view of all the cars that park. Could automate ticketing car owners who overstay. *Not that I wish for this, but it's theoretically possible to implement.
- hammock 7y agoThe article mentions a likely candidate for replacement: "parking enforcement officers could sidestep the constitutional issue altogether by simply taking a photo of the car rather than using chalk"
- jen729w 7y ago> A chalked tire was ephemeral. I doubt that whatever replaces it will be. My girlfriend tells me of a homeless guy that used to roam the streets of Bondi, Australia – as in the famous beach – rubbing the chalk off the tyres. This guy never said a word, just shuffled about rubbing off chalk. Suffice to say he was a local hero. Now he’s gonna have to learn how to DROP TABLE.
- cialowicz 7y ago> ...roam the streets of Bondi, Australia This ruling applies to the US, not Australia.
- avh02 7y agoIt was a highly relevant but non-local anecdote - who cares where it is? I happened to find it a cute random act of kindness (or rebellion).
- chrisseaton 7y agoNot cute or kind for people who want a fair shot at parking like everyone else and can't because people are abusing the system for their own selfish reasons, enabled by someone rubbing the chalk off.
- avh02 7y agoI agree, which is why I put the "or rebellion" bit, at the same time, it's not like the people parking are paying someone to go around rubbing chalk off so I can't say they're "abusing the system" as they have no expectation of getting away with it. Regardless, it's story a friend of a friend told somebody, who knows how true
- cschep 7y agowho hurt you?
- 7y ago
- rocqua 7y agoIts scary that they equated chalking to GPS trackers. Pervasiveness is exactly the difference between the two. It seems that the courts did not recognize that.
- megaremote 7y agoEvery single car should be constantly tracked, they are killing machines. 2 million die a year due to the cars.
- nextlevelwizard 7y ago100% of murders and homicides are comited by people. Every single person should be constantly tracked, they are killing machines.
- sbuttgereit 7y agoMy hunch is that the sort of tracking you dread is on its way regardless of what happened in this case. Over time, the only likely difference of this court result is that parking enforcement agents will have some software that tells them about the license plates with expired time... license plates they may have already been bulk collecting for broader purposes. Speculation... but... we'll see....
- jrochkind1 7y agoI'm pretty sure where I live they already don't use chalk, but instead use cars/gocarts with license plate scanners, driven by parking enforcement officers, that drive up and down the streets, recording what cars were where when. The system will flag em to stop and ticket where required. I think this is quite common now in the US? Googling, I'm not sure if it's not quite common yet (yet!), or there just hasn't been a lot of attention to it? https://www.govtech.com/public-safety/License-Plate-Scanning-Goes-Mobile.html https://www.govtech.com/public-safety/License-Plate-Scanning... https://ops-com.com/parking-security-platform/license-plate-recognition/ https://ops-com.com/parking-security-platform/license-plate-... https://www.genetec.com/solutions/industries/parking-enforcement https://www.genetec.com/solutions/industries/parking-enforce... https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7186110-181/crimebeat-what-does-license-plate-reading https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7186110-181/crimebeat-wha...