5 ms·

Not to mention untrustworthy countries like the UK, Germany, and France.

mschuster91 8y ago
At least these three countries do not have right-wing extremists and authoritarians in government. I admit that we're not perfect, 13% support for right-wingers is 13% too much and our secret services are also plagued with scandals at the moment, but still: not remotely comparable with what is going on in HU/AT/IT/PL.
- kacamak 8y ago
  >At least these three countries do not have right-wing extremists and authoritarians in government. No, they have jihadists and an authoritarian government.
- raxxorrax 8y ago
  It is plain stupid and negligent to give biometrical data to the German government. Your argument about the prevalence of bad guys in parliament is devoid of any reasonable conclusion in either direction. And certainly not sufficient for a general case for laws of this kind, as it lacks even a minimal justification for implementing surveillance on this scale. But you obviously don't see right-wing parties as a threat, since they would get access to that data too. Although I would admit that they probably wouldn't accomplish anything that a Seehofer could do as well.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    > It is plain stupid and negligent to give biometrical data to the German government. Really? Germany requires all citizens to have a biometric ID card. The ID cards were introduced separately in East and West Germany decades before reunification. What makes you think this is “stupid and negligent” when it’s been around for so long? I’d expect any social/political/legal bugs to have been solved by now.
    - raxxorrax 8y ago
      > Germany requires all citizens to have a biometric ID card Partially true for your picture, that is restricted to the ID itself. And that is a relatively recent addition. You can still get an ID with "imperfect" biometric photo, which you provide yourself. Biometric photo is defined by some rudimentary rules (you are not allowed to use a picture of the back of your head) that isn't comparable to fingerprints in any way. > I’d expect any social/political/legal bugs to have been solved by now. heh, have you written a test?
      - ben_w 8y ago
        > heh, have you written a test? Fair. I suppose I expect important problems to be tested automatically by reality, but I don’t really know how Common Law systems handle that, and I’m completely unfamiliar with Civil Law systems.
        raxxorrax 8y ago
        Well, I doubt there are fundamental differences, but a lawyer might disagree. I believe any form of law system needs to reflect our intuitive fairness or it will fail at some point. It is of course imperfect, like any crafted law, but fundamental for the acceptance of the judiciary. If the law is applied with help of precedents or text doesn't matter that much in the end. But besides the point, requiring every citizen to be able to ID himself with biometric data is the bug, not a solution to anything. Something national socialists knew very well. Although technologically restricted, there are unmissable parallels to legislation like this. This is legislation crafted from fear and opportunism. Not a single problem will be solved.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  >At least these three countries do not have right-wing extremists and authoritarians in government. Why are you using such inflammatory language? Is it because these countries dared to defy their great German overlords? You mention right wing extremists but then later talk about right wingers. This is like saying that communists are in power and pointing towards statistics about left wing liberals. Furthermore, Germany is and has been more authoritarian than any of those countries for a long time. In Germany you need to buy a license just to livestream online to more than 500 people (or needed?). Germany's also the country where home-schooling is illegal and you can't take your kid out of school even for a couple of hours without permission from the principal (often a government employee). As far as personal freedom goes, you probably still have more of it in the abovementioned countries compared to Germany.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    Dude, I'm Polish and our government is 100% right-wing authoritarian. I'd call them extremist, but I see why such term can be controversial. And not being able to home school kids is a great thing, don't understand how it's even a thing in other countries.
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    > Why are you using such inflammatory language? Why not? The FPÖ (AT) is right-wing extremist. The Fidesz (HU) got suspended from the EVP for leaving the path of democracy. Salvini (IT) regularly uses right-wing talking points and incites hatred. PiS (PL) is under fire from the EU Commission which has sued the Polish government due to them dismantling the court system. > Furthermore, Germany is and has been more authoritarian than any of those countries for a long time. In Germany you need to buy a license just to livestream online to more than 500 people (or needed?). LOL, are you serious? I agree that this regulation is utter crap, but that is not authoritarian. We still have an independent court and police system - PL/HU have not. > Germany's also the country where home-schooling is illegal and you can't take your kid out of school even for a couple of hours without permission from the principal (often a government employee). Home schooling is illegal for very valid reasons. At least our kids (mostly) get vaccinated and don't get screwed out of their future by parents who think it's sane to keep them from anything outside and replace that with evangelical indoctrination.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
The UK is not part of the Schengen accord. So I suspect it won't be part of this repository. This has nothing to do with Brexit.
- dfawcus 8y ago
  Despite not being within the Schengen area, the UK currently has (some) access to the SIS. That will (almost certainly) end if Brexit occcurs.

At least these three countries do not have right-wing extremists and authoritarians in government. I admit that we're not perfect, 13% support for right-wingers is 13% too much and our secret services are also plagued with scandals at the moment, but still: not remotely comparable with what is going on in HU/AT/IT/PL.

kacamak 8y ago
>At least these three countries do not have right-wing extremists and authoritarians in government. No, they have jihadists and an authoritarian government.
raxxorrax 8y ago
It is plain stupid and negligent to give biometrical data to the German government. Your argument about the prevalence of bad guys in parliament is devoid of any reasonable conclusion in either direction. And certainly not sufficient for a general case for laws of this kind, as it lacks even a minimal justification for implementing surveillance on this scale. But you obviously don't see right-wing parties as a threat, since they would get access to that data too. Although I would admit that they probably wouldn't accomplish anything that a Seehofer could do as well.
- ben_w 8y ago
  > It is plain stupid and negligent to give biometrical data to the German government. Really? Germany requires all citizens to have a biometric ID card. The ID cards were introduced separately in East and West Germany decades before reunification. What makes you think this is “stupid and negligent” when it’s been around for so long? I’d expect any social/political/legal bugs to have been solved by now.
  - raxxorrax 8y ago
    > Germany requires all citizens to have a biometric ID card Partially true for your picture, that is restricted to the ID itself. And that is a relatively recent addition. You can still get an ID with "imperfect" biometric photo, which you provide yourself. Biometric photo is defined by some rudimentary rules (you are not allowed to use a picture of the back of your head) that isn't comparable to fingerprints in any way. > I’d expect any social/political/legal bugs to have been solved by now. heh, have you written a test?
    - ben_w 8y ago
      > heh, have you written a test? Fair. I suppose I expect important problems to be tested automatically by reality, but I don’t really know how Common Law systems handle that, and I’m completely unfamiliar with Civil Law systems.
      - raxxorrax 8y ago
        Well, I doubt there are fundamental differences, but a lawyer might disagree. I believe any form of law system needs to reflect our intuitive fairness or it will fail at some point. It is of course imperfect, like any crafted law, but fundamental for the acceptance of the judiciary. If the law is applied with help of precedents or text doesn't matter that much in the end. But besides the point, requiring every citizen to be able to ID himself with biometric data is the bug, not a solution to anything. Something national socialists knew very well. Although technologically restricted, there are unmissable parallels to legislation like this. This is legislation crafted from fear and opportunism. Not a single problem will be solved.
Mirioron 8y ago
>At least these three countries do not have right-wing extremists and authoritarians in government. Why are you using such inflammatory language? Is it because these countries dared to defy their great German overlords? You mention right wing extremists but then later talk about right wingers. This is like saying that communists are in power and pointing towards statistics about left wing liberals. Furthermore, Germany is and has been more authoritarian than any of those countries for a long time. In Germany you need to buy a license just to livestream online to more than 500 people (or needed?). Germany's also the country where home-schooling is illegal and you can't take your kid out of school even for a couple of hours without permission from the principal (often a government employee). As far as personal freedom goes, you probably still have more of it in the abovementioned countries compared to Germany.
- gambiting 8y ago
  Dude, I'm Polish and our government is 100% right-wing authoritarian. I'd call them extremist, but I see why such term can be controversial. And not being able to home school kids is a great thing, don't understand how it's even a thing in other countries.
- mschuster91 8y ago
  > Why are you using such inflammatory language? Why not? The FPÖ (AT) is right-wing extremist. The Fidesz (HU) got suspended from the EVP for leaving the path of democracy. Salvini (IT) regularly uses right-wing talking points and incites hatred. PiS (PL) is under fire from the EU Commission which has sued the Polish government due to them dismantling the court system. > Furthermore, Germany is and has been more authoritarian than any of those countries for a long time. In Germany you need to buy a license just to livestream online to more than 500 people (or needed?). LOL, are you serious? I agree that this regulation is utter crap, but that is not authoritarian. We still have an independent court and police system - PL/HU have not. > Germany's also the country where home-schooling is illegal and you can't take your kid out of school even for a couple of hours without permission from the principal (often a government employee). Home schooling is illegal for very valid reasons. At least our kids (mostly) get vaccinated and don't get screwed out of their future by parents who think it's sane to keep them from anything outside and replace that with evangelical indoctrination.

CaptainZapp 8y ago

The UK is not part of the Schengen accord. So I suspect it won't be part of this repository. This has nothing to do with Brexit.

dfawcus 8y ago
Despite not being within the Schengen area, the UK currently has (some) access to the SIS. That will (almost certainly) end if Brexit occcurs.