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> The European Parliament voted last week to interconnect a series of border-control, migration, and law enforcement systems into a gigantic, biometrics-trackin

> The European Parliament voted last week to interconnect a series of border-control, migration, and law enforcement systems into a gigantic, biometrics-tracking, searchable database of EU and non-EU citizens. It is only people already known to the EU.

docdeek 7y ago
Understood - but most EU states would have a national ID card which would make them ‘known’ to their own government. Not sure if all include biometrics (I know that the ID cards here in France are not all like that, though passports today are) but national ID cards cover all adults and children. Just seems weird that they would not include a couple of hundred million people that they definitely know something about by virtue of their citizenship of an EU country.
- tapland 7y ago
  At least in Sweden very few people use national id-cards. Most people have ones issued by banks. A lot of people became painfully aware of this when they were refused re-entry into the country with their other ID-cards when border checks towards Denmark were implemented, since it's common to commute to Copenhagen. Most Swedes do have passports though.
  - Daniel_sk 7y ago
    Interesting fact. I thought that having an ID card is pretty much mandatory in whole EU. In Slovakia you get one at age of 15 (I think) and it has biometric data - picture and fingerprints. You are not required by law to carry it with you, but it can cause delays if need to be verified by police or other authority. It’s also used to login into e-gov services with a card reader and your pin - but it’s quite limited at this point.
    - nutjob2 7y ago
      In several EU countries you're required to carry id at all times. In the US Green Card holders are required to carry the card at all times.
      - swarnie_ 7y ago
        > In several EU countries you're required to carry id at all times. Any idea what the punishment is for not carrying?
        Zeitgeschehen 7y ago
        As far as I know, the only countries where you are obliged to carry your ID are Portugal and the Netherlands. In Germany you are required to possess one but not to carry it with you, except in special cases (fields of work known for a high percantage of illegal workers, people carrying weapons, police men). If you do not posses a valid ID, you will be fined up to 3000€. But do note that you are required to identify yourself to the police or other official institutions and if you are unable to they might escort you home to present your id or to the police office to identify you there.
        Asooka 7y ago
        Bulgarian here. The punishment for not having an ID when a police officer requests it, is being jailed until someone with an ID can come and ID you.
    - ahje 7y ago
      In the Nordic countries, ID isn't mandatory, and apart from a few border crossings between Denmark and Sweden, there are no border controls either. Apart from the aforementioned border controls, citizens of other Nordic countries aren't required to carry a passport or a national ID card, but should carry some kind of identification on them. In practice, that means you just carry your regular driver's license in your wallet when crossing the border. I hear there's a similar setup in the Benelux countries, so ID is definitely not mandatory in the entire EU.
      - tapland 7y ago
        You are very much required to carry a national ID card (or passport) when travelling to other Nordic countries. Now, there aren't any checks except for the border into Sweden from Denmark, but if there is a check you are not allowed to travel using an ID or driver's license. Driver's licences, ID cards issued by banks or tax offices are not valid for travel within schengen even though you are generally able to move between the countries anyway. The misconception you present is the reason Swedes with driver's licences and normal ID cards got stranded in Denmark.
        ahje 7y ago
        Misconception? The Nordic Passport Union is still quite valid. Quoted from Wikipedia: "Within the Nordic area, any Nordic identity documentation (e.g. a driving license) is valid as proof of identity for Nordic citizens because of the Nordic Passport Union, while a national identity card or a passport is can be required in other Schengen countries" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union In other words, you need to be able to identify yourself, but not necessarily with a national ID or a passport as you would when entering other parts of the Schengen area. The border controls between Denmark and Sweden are a temporary suspension of those rules but it only concerns people crossing the border at those points -- not people who who are already in the country or people who cross the borders at other locations, like say, the Finnish/Swedish border.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      Definitely not the case in the UK - in fact there was quite fuss made when there was a plan a few years back to introduce ID cards. Mind you I suspect mostly people do carry 'official' identification documents on them most of the time (e.g. driving licenses) but there is no requirement to actually have these on you at all times.
      - sirkneeland 7y ago
        My favorite song on the Pet Shop Boys' 2006 album Fundamental ("Integral") was a protest against Blair's Identity Cards Act "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear / if you've something to hide, you shouldn't even be here"
        arethuza 7y ago
        Also people of a certain age (like me) who associate "Papers please" with WW2 movies.
        dijit 7y ago
        "For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."
    - dfawcus 7y ago
      Definitely not in the UK. We had them after WWII until sometime in the 50's when they were removed due to abuse by the authorities. Hence there is still a distrust of them. The scheme recently introduced and then scrapped could have had some interesting consequences. This is part of why we have such "fun" with the free movement provisions, in that we do not have a population register. Nor a requirement to keep the authorities notified of where we live. Hence unlike the other EU countries, we can not enforce the 90 day limit on EU folks being here without means to support themselves.
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        I think it was when the wartime id cards where up for renewal the civil service wanted it - but parliament thought it smacked to much of "Gestapo" as Churchill put it.
        dfawcus 7y ago
        It was killed by a Motorist refusing to present an ID card to the police, and the resultant court case. That is what lead to Parliament being "forced" to scrap them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3129302.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3129302.stm a bit more detail here: http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/identity-cards-in-britain-past-experience-and-policy-implications http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/identit...
        C1sc0cat 7y ago
        Interesting I did not know that
      - amatix 7y ago
        FYI, any non-British citizens living in the UK (excepting EU for now) are being forced towards getting Biometric Residence Permits with any visas/renewals... a plastic card containing photos/biometrics and a big ID number on it. And biometrics are collected every time you cross the border.
  - dijit 7y ago
    > Most people have ones issued by banks Mine was issued by Skatterverket which is the tax agency, no? Surely that's "Government issued ID". In fact, I had to give them my fingerprint and iris scan when I got my card. (Although I have been denied entry when coming back from Copenhagen with it; "It is not a travel document" was the reasoning which is completely against the Schengen agreement.)
    - ahje 7y ago
      I was rather shocked when I tried to get across from Copenhagen to Malmö with a Finnish national ID card, only to discover it wasn't valid valid for entering Sweden. Luckily they saw reason and let me through after a while but it must be horrible for the daily commuters. When I lived in Copenhagen a few years back the commuters numbered in the 10000's. I can imagine that number has gone down a lot recently.
      - vesinisa 7y ago
        You were without a question dealing with an incompetent border officer in that case. Finnish ID card issued to a Finnish national is a valid travel document to all EU countries, to all Nordic countries, and to Switzerland. Additionally, for the citizens of all Nordic countries, no official travel documents are required to other Nordic countries in the first place. There is only a requirement to "be able to prove your identity on request" - for which a driver's license would usually suffice. See: https://www.poliisi.fi/identity_card/use_of_the_identity_card https://www.poliisi.fi/identity_card/use_of_the_identity_car...
        fyfy18 7y ago
        > There is only a requirement to "be able to prove your identity on request" - for which a driver's license would usually suffice. This is how travel works right now between the UK and Ireland, hence why it's such a big pain point in regards to Brexit.
        dfawcus 7y ago
- bkor 7y ago
  In Netherlands they make a copy of your fingerprint for your ID card (EU-wide) or passport. The copy of that fingerprint is deleted after it's stored electronically on your ID card or passport. There's no need to store a copy of e.g. the fingerprint anywhere else. Just sign the electronic data on the ID card/passport. Everyone here seems to assume that having biometric data on the passport means that there's a database somewhere, while that isn't needed.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    > The copy of that fingerprint is deleted after it's stored electronically on your ID card or passport. Do you have hard proof for that deletion step?
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
    Same process applies in Switzerland. You must apply in person for a new passport and your picture and finger prints are captured and integrated into the passport. Fingerprints, however, are stored in a central database. This was (and is) extremely controversial and the official reasoning was verification in case a passport needs to be replaced.

docdeek 7y ago

Understood - but most EU states would have a national ID card which would make them ‘known’ to their own government. Not sure if all include biometrics (I know that the ID cards here in France are not all like that, though passports today are) but national ID cards cover all adults and children. Just seems weird that they would not include a couple of hundred million people that they definitely know something about by virtue of their citizenship of an EU country.

tapland 7y ago
At least in Sweden very few people use national id-cards. Most people have ones issued by banks. A lot of people became painfully aware of this when they were refused re-entry into the country with their other ID-cards when border checks towards Denmark were implemented, since it's common to commute to Copenhagen. Most Swedes do have passports though.
- Daniel_sk 7y ago
  Interesting fact. I thought that having an ID card is pretty much mandatory in whole EU. In Slovakia you get one at age of 15 (I think) and it has biometric data - picture and fingerprints. You are not required by law to carry it with you, but it can cause delays if need to be verified by police or other authority. It’s also used to login into e-gov services with a card reader and your pin - but it’s quite limited at this point.
  - nutjob2 7y ago
    In several EU countries you're required to carry id at all times. In the US Green Card holders are required to carry the card at all times.
    - swarnie_ 7y ago
      > In several EU countries you're required to carry id at all times. Any idea what the punishment is for not carrying?
      - Zeitgeschehen 7y ago
        As far as I know, the only countries where you are obliged to carry your ID are Portugal and the Netherlands. In Germany you are required to possess one but not to carry it with you, except in special cases (fields of work known for a high percantage of illegal workers, people carrying weapons, police men). If you do not posses a valid ID, you will be fined up to 3000€. But do note that you are required to identify yourself to the police or other official institutions and if you are unable to they might escort you home to present your id or to the police office to identify you there.
      - Asooka 7y ago
        Bulgarian here. The punishment for not having an ID when a police officer requests it, is being jailed until someone with an ID can come and ID you.
  - ahje 7y ago
    In the Nordic countries, ID isn't mandatory, and apart from a few border crossings between Denmark and Sweden, there are no border controls either. Apart from the aforementioned border controls, citizens of other Nordic countries aren't required to carry a passport or a national ID card, but should carry some kind of identification on them. In practice, that means you just carry your regular driver's license in your wallet when crossing the border. I hear there's a similar setup in the Benelux countries, so ID is definitely not mandatory in the entire EU.
    - tapland 7y ago
      You are very much required to carry a national ID card (or passport) when travelling to other Nordic countries. Now, there aren't any checks except for the border into Sweden from Denmark, but if there is a check you are not allowed to travel using an ID or driver's license. Driver's licences, ID cards issued by banks or tax offices are not valid for travel within schengen even though you are generally able to move between the countries anyway. The misconception you present is the reason Swedes with driver's licences and normal ID cards got stranded in Denmark.
      - ahje 7y ago
        Misconception? The Nordic Passport Union is still quite valid. Quoted from Wikipedia: "Within the Nordic area, any Nordic identity documentation (e.g. a driving license) is valid as proof of identity for Nordic citizens because of the Nordic Passport Union, while a national identity card or a passport is can be required in other Schengen countries" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union In other words, you need to be able to identify yourself, but not necessarily with a national ID or a passport as you would when entering other parts of the Schengen area. The border controls between Denmark and Sweden are a temporary suspension of those rules but it only concerns people crossing the border at those points -- not people who who are already in the country or people who cross the borders at other locations, like say, the Finnish/Swedish border.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Definitely not the case in the UK - in fact there was quite fuss made when there was a plan a few years back to introduce ID cards. Mind you I suspect mostly people do carry 'official' identification documents on them most of the time (e.g. driving licenses) but there is no requirement to actually have these on you at all times.
    - sirkneeland 7y ago
      My favorite song on the Pet Shop Boys' 2006 album Fundamental ("Integral") was a protest against Blair's Identity Cards Act "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear / if you've something to hide, you shouldn't even be here"
      - arethuza 7y ago
        Also people of a certain age (like me) who associate "Papers please" with WW2 movies.
      - dijit 7y ago
        "For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."
  - dfawcus 7y ago
    Definitely not in the UK. We had them after WWII until sometime in the 50's when they were removed due to abuse by the authorities. Hence there is still a distrust of them. The scheme recently introduced and then scrapped could have had some interesting consequences. This is part of why we have such "fun" with the free movement provisions, in that we do not have a population register. Nor a requirement to keep the authorities notified of where we live. Hence unlike the other EU countries, we can not enforce the 90 day limit on EU folks being here without means to support themselves.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      I think it was when the wartime id cards where up for renewal the civil service wanted it - but parliament thought it smacked to much of "Gestapo" as Churchill put it.
      - dfawcus 7y ago
        It was killed by a Motorist refusing to present an ID card to the police, and the resultant court case. That is what lead to Parliament being "forced" to scrap them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3129302.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3129302.stm a bit more detail here: http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/identity-cards-in-britain-past-experience-and-policy-implications http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/identit...
        C1sc0cat 7y ago
        Interesting I did not know that
    - amatix 7y ago
      FYI, any non-British citizens living in the UK (excepting EU for now) are being forced towards getting Biometric Residence Permits with any visas/renewals... a plastic card containing photos/biometrics and a big ID number on it. And biometrics are collected every time you cross the border.
- dijit 7y ago
  > Most people have ones issued by banks Mine was issued by Skatterverket which is the tax agency, no? Surely that's "Government issued ID". In fact, I had to give them my fingerprint and iris scan when I got my card. (Although I have been denied entry when coming back from Copenhagen with it; "It is not a travel document" was the reasoning which is completely against the Schengen agreement.)
  - ahje 7y ago
    I was rather shocked when I tried to get across from Copenhagen to Malmö with a Finnish national ID card, only to discover it wasn't valid valid for entering Sweden. Luckily they saw reason and let me through after a while but it must be horrible for the daily commuters. When I lived in Copenhagen a few years back the commuters numbered in the 10000's. I can imagine that number has gone down a lot recently.
    - vesinisa 7y ago
      You were without a question dealing with an incompetent border officer in that case. Finnish ID card issued to a Finnish national is a valid travel document to all EU countries, to all Nordic countries, and to Switzerland. Additionally, for the citizens of all Nordic countries, no official travel documents are required to other Nordic countries in the first place. There is only a requirement to "be able to prove your identity on request" - for which a driver's license would usually suffice. See: https://www.poliisi.fi/identity_card/use_of_the_identity_card https://www.poliisi.fi/identity_card/use_of_the_identity_car...
      - fyfy18 7y ago
        > There is only a requirement to "be able to prove your identity on request" - for which a driver's license would usually suffice. This is how travel works right now between the UK and Ireland, hence why it's such a big pain point in regards to Brexit.
        dfawcus 7y ago
bkor 7y ago
In Netherlands they make a copy of your fingerprint for your ID card (EU-wide) or passport. The copy of that fingerprint is deleted after it's stored electronically on your ID card or passport. There's no need to store a copy of e.g. the fingerprint anywhere else. Just sign the electronic data on the ID card/passport. Everyone here seems to assume that having biometric data on the passport means that there's a database somewhere, while that isn't needed.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  > The copy of that fingerprint is deleted after it's stored electronically on your ID card or passport. Do you have hard proof for that deletion step?
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  Same process applies in Switzerland. You must apply in person for a new passport and your picture and finger prints are captured and integrated into the passport. Fingerprints, however, are stored in a central database. This was (and is) extremely controversial and the official reasoning was verification in case a passport needs to be replaced.