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Perhaps you didn’t read the article. This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba doing massiv

Perhaps you didn’t read the article. This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba doing massive shopping festivals that easily rivals Thanksgiving. Two day delivery is China is considered slow and nothing to be proud about. On the top of this, it looks there were control issues where leaders at Amazon.cn weren’t empowered to make decisions. I actually would rather ask reverse question: why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery.

navigatesol 8y ago
>This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba And of course these local players are in no way supported or promoted by the government, right?
- martinlaz 8y ago
  Could be... But then again, I find it hard to believe that if Alibaba ever starts overtaking Amazon in the US, the government will just stand and watch.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
I personally would defer judgement on why Amazon is leaving; Alibaba tends to be the most competitive of the Chinese internet companies, and has a corporate culture very similar to Amazon (frugal, but with 996). But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor, they are much more B2B than B2C, it’s only when you throw in TMall or Taobao that comparisons become more apt. When I was living in Beijing, my wife and I never used Alibaba, it was always JD.com or some other consumer oriented site, and even Amazon sometimes (though mostly because the Microsoft China trade Union kept giving us gift cards as a kickback).
- reallydude 8y ago
  > But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor (in China) You mean JD. You could just say "JD" instead of the vague statement.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    I said JD in the next sentence, the one run by milk tea sister’s husband of dubious repute.
- njepa 8y ago
  I would assume they meant Alibaba Group which is Taobao, Tmall, Alibaba.com, AliExpress, Alipay, Aliyun. Ele.me, Youku etc. Taobao is pretty amazing. But slightly hard to explain. It is like Amazon, eBay, Shopify, Wish and more in one.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Ya, but we never used TMall or Taobao either. There are lots of other better options for consumers in China.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
baybal2 8y ago
Timing is surprising. Amazon's Chinese business has just managed to set up everything right and find its niche. Amazon in China was getting big in second tier cities underserved by big ecommerce brands. Serving second tier cities make a lot of sense today when competition in tier 1 cities requires more ad spending than in America or Europe
paganel 8y ago
> why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery. Alibaba is pretty big here in Romania. One could say that that happens because Amazon isn't officially present on the market, which is true, but neither Alibaba is officially launched, people use it because the stuff on their website is really, really cheap and the cost vs what-you-get ratio is pretty reasonable. I also wonder how come Alibaba isn't bigger in some Western European markets.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  As a Bulgarian, that's very surprising to read! What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba? Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay? I'm pretty unhappy with Amazon and eBay for shopping in Bulgaria and I'm considering alternatives.
  - paganel 8y ago
    > What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba? It's not for the same-day delivery crowd, that's for sure, afaik it's from a few days to a week or two. But, like I said, the price is sometimes so low that for a lot of people it's worth it. > Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay? Not as far as I know. There used to be a loophole (or maybe the customs people were too lazy to enforce the law) where you didn't pay VAT for purchases that were not that high but that has changed lately, which added approximately 20% to the costs. Even so, because the prices are comparatively speaking so low it doesn't make that much of a difference. Of course, I wouldn't advise trying to purchase any branded things or luxury stuff from Alibaba but you can find pretty nice things in there at impossible to beat prices if you don't care that much about the label.
    - pdimitar 8y ago
      Thanks a lot. I wouldn't go for almost any online store if I look up luxury items anyway. ;) But when you want to get 4 cables of this kind, 2 cables of that other kind, 3 LED arrays, and 2 books -- which total $35 -- it feels pretty awful to actually have to pay about $65 due to delivery fees and whatnot. So I am thinking that for all those smaller purchases I'll just go for Alibaba. (BTW I also noticed our customs caught up on lower-cost items' VAT and it's not pleasant.) Appreciate the feedback.
deleted 8y ago
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dis-sys 8y ago
> why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery. Because jd.com will never get the same 3 million delivery guys working 80 hours a week at around USD $1,000/month.
philwelch 8y ago
The entire Chinese economy has to do with government interference. The scales are absolutely tipped in favor of Chinese companies.
- lambdasquirrel 8y ago
  One wonders who the dominant player will be in India, or Africa.
  - solidasparagus 8y ago
    Given India's protectionist stance towards foreign companies, I'm going to guess not Amazon or Walmart.
    - 8ytecoder 8y ago
      They are the only two players now (for all practical purpose)
    - AareyBaba 8y ago
      Companies like Harley-Davidson, Ford, GM, McDonalds, Dominos are running fine in India because they have plenty of local competition and create local jobs. Walmart, Amazon are seeing resistance because they could potentially put thousand of small business owners out of work. Boeing, Intel, Corning are doing great business in India because there are no local alternatives. I've even seen automotive lifts for auto repair shops with Made in USA in red-white-blue decals at local repair shops. Companies like Visa and Mastercard will see protectionist moves by the government as India goes digital 'cause there is no reason for a foreign duopoly to corner the huge market in India.
      - solidasparagus 8y ago
        I was referring specifically to ecommerce players, in the context of the recent protectionist laws enacted by India in that area. And it is more than just protecting small business out of work since the laws specifically target foreign investment.
lordlimecat 8y ago
>This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong Why are local players very strong? * Regulatory capture * Government promotion of internal services * IP theft from western countries How about, all of the above?
- rat9988 8y ago
  Can you explain how each point is in play in the current case?
- chrischen 8y ago
  Without providing sources or proof you’re just regurgitating highly anti-Chinese propaganda.
  - parrellel 8y ago
    Since China is also known for all-levels number fudging and revisionism, and state policy and culture has a tendency toward brigading that'd make tumblr blush, the "anti-china propaganda" tends to be a tad more credible, no?
    - chrischen 8y ago
      Is that how the process works now? Go with whoever tends to be be a "tad more credible." Everyone has agendas, and you'll go nowhere comparing the relative strength of everyone's agendas. Simply stating something likely done by Alibaba, but not necessarily true not only adds nothing to the conversation, but detracts from the journey to the truth. If we accept his statement as is, then you may as well accept anything anti-China simply based on the fact that it is anti-China. But doing so of course would be openly declaring yourself as an agenda-based biased actor.
      - parrellel 8y ago
        Not anything, but well, China's a corrupt totalitarian state that believes in information control and revisionism... and then there's also the element of performative solidarity in response to state actions (re: doping scandals, trade sanctions, Taiwan, etc). So, I'll sing praises to China when they do something praiseworthy, but by god I'm not trusting a statistic or a press brief coming out of that place, and no-one else with half a brain should either.
dominotw 8y ago
> This has nothing to with government interference > Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba Funding a local competitor is not interference? Chinese Government Has A Huge "Stake" In Alibaba https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaysomaney/2015/10/18/chinese-government-has-a-huge-stake-in-alibaba/#6128e03225b8 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaysomaney/2015/10/18/chinese-g...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
chapium 8y ago
My inlaws got antsie when a delivery took 4 hours to show up. Home delivery is very fast in China.
- johnchristopher 8y ago
  What kind of thing were they ordering and what was the distance traveled by the package, if you don't mind my asking ?
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  4 hours is a bit extreme unless you are getting it delivered from the store in your apartment complex (which happens...a lot).
ajross 8y ago
> Two day delivery is China is considered slow and nothing to be proud about. Within Beijing/Shanghai/Guangzhou, I'm sure that's true. Can Alibaba get a package delivered to Tibet in two days? Really this is just expressing the fact that effectively all of China's industrialized economy is concentrated in three urban centers.
- intuitionist 8y ago
  Are you counting Shenzhen as part of Guangzhou? Surely it’s a center of the Chinese industrial economy. And while they might not be industrial centers, there are tens of millions of middle-class Chinese in places like Chongqing, Wuhan, Nanjing who presumably order stuff online sometimes.
  - ajross 8y ago
    I'm sure lots of people order stuff online, even in Tibet. I was asking for support for "two day shipping is no great shakes" upthread, which frankly I don't believe given the size of the country and the nature of its transportation grid.
    - hurrdurr2 8y ago
      You have no idea how developed China's internal shipping is.
Tsubasachan 8y ago
AliBaba is already gaining marketshare in Europe. The Chinese company supports local payment systems, their customer service is surprisingly good, they are actually hungry for business and most importantly CHEAP. Amazon got a bit arrogant and complacent. Probably because of their god status in the US. One of the best things about capitalism is that nobody is safe.
dang 8y ago
"Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

navigatesol 8y ago

>This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba And of course these local players are in no way supported or promoted by the government, right?

martinlaz 8y ago
Could be... But then again, I find it hard to believe that if Alibaba ever starts overtaking Amazon in the US, the government will just stand and watch.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

I personally would defer judgement on why Amazon is leaving; Alibaba tends to be the most competitive of the Chinese internet companies, and has a corporate culture very similar to Amazon (frugal, but with 996). But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor, they are much more B2B than B2C, it’s only when you throw in TMall or Taobao that comparisons become more apt. When I was living in Beijing, my wife and I never used Alibaba, it was always JD.com or some other consumer oriented site, and even Amazon sometimes (though mostly because the Microsoft China trade Union kept giving us gift cards as a kickback).

reallydude 8y ago
> But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor (in China) You mean JD. You could just say "JD" instead of the vague statement.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  I said JD in the next sentence, the one run by milk tea sister’s husband of dubious repute.
njepa 8y ago
I would assume they meant Alibaba Group which is Taobao, Tmall, Alibaba.com, AliExpress, Alipay, Aliyun. Ele.me, Youku etc. Taobao is pretty amazing. But slightly hard to explain. It is like Amazon, eBay, Shopify, Wish and more in one.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Ya, but we never used TMall or Taobao either. There are lots of other better options for consumers in China.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

baybal2 8y ago

Timing is surprising. Amazon's Chinese business has just managed to set up everything right and find its niche. Amazon in China was getting big in second tier cities underserved by big ecommerce brands. Serving second tier cities make a lot of sense today when competition in tier 1 cities requires more ad spending than in America or Europe

paganel 8y ago

> why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery. Alibaba is pretty big here in Romania. One could say that that happens because Amazon isn't officially present on the market, which is true, but neither Alibaba is officially launched, people use it because the stuff on their website is really, really cheap and the cost vs what-you-get ratio is pretty reasonable. I also wonder how come Alibaba isn't bigger in some Western European markets.

pdimitar 8y ago
As a Bulgarian, that's very surprising to read! What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba? Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay? I'm pretty unhappy with Amazon and eBay for shopping in Bulgaria and I'm considering alternatives.
- paganel 8y ago
  > What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba? It's not for the same-day delivery crowd, that's for sure, afaik it's from a few days to a week or two. But, like I said, the price is sometimes so low that for a lot of people it's worth it. > Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay? Not as far as I know. There used to be a loophole (or maybe the customs people were too lazy to enforce the law) where you didn't pay VAT for purchases that were not that high but that has changed lately, which added approximately 20% to the costs. Even so, because the prices are comparatively speaking so low it doesn't make that much of a difference. Of course, I wouldn't advise trying to purchase any branded things or luxury stuff from Alibaba but you can find pretty nice things in there at impossible to beat prices if you don't care that much about the label.
  - pdimitar 8y ago
    Thanks a lot. I wouldn't go for almost any online store if I look up luxury items anyway. ;) But when you want to get 4 cables of this kind, 2 cables of that other kind, 3 LED arrays, and 2 books -- which total $35 -- it feels pretty awful to actually have to pay about $65 due to delivery fees and whatnot. So I am thinking that for all those smaller purchases I'll just go for Alibaba. (BTW I also noticed our customs caught up on lower-cost items' VAT and it's not pleasant.) Appreciate the feedback.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dis-sys 8y ago

> why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery. Because jd.com will never get the same 3 million delivery guys working 80 hours a week at around USD $1,000/month.

philwelch 8y ago

The entire Chinese economy has to do with government interference. The scales are absolutely tipped in favor of Chinese companies.

lambdasquirrel 8y ago
One wonders who the dominant player will be in India, or Africa.
- solidasparagus 8y ago
  Given India's protectionist stance towards foreign companies, I'm going to guess not Amazon or Walmart.
  - 8ytecoder 8y ago
    They are the only two players now (for all practical purpose)
  - AareyBaba 8y ago
    Companies like Harley-Davidson, Ford, GM, McDonalds, Dominos are running fine in India because they have plenty of local competition and create local jobs. Walmart, Amazon are seeing resistance because they could potentially put thousand of small business owners out of work. Boeing, Intel, Corning are doing great business in India because there are no local alternatives. I've even seen automotive lifts for auto repair shops with Made in USA in red-white-blue decals at local repair shops. Companies like Visa and Mastercard will see protectionist moves by the government as India goes digital 'cause there is no reason for a foreign duopoly to corner the huge market in India.
    - solidasparagus 8y ago
      I was referring specifically to ecommerce players, in the context of the recent protectionist laws enacted by India in that area. And it is more than just protecting small business out of work since the laws specifically target foreign investment.

lordlimecat 8y ago

>This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong Why are local players very strong? * Regulatory capture * Government promotion of internal services * IP theft from western countries How about, all of the above?

rat9988 8y ago
Can you explain how each point is in play in the current case?
chrischen 8y ago
Without providing sources or proof you’re just regurgitating highly anti-Chinese propaganda.
- parrellel 8y ago
  Since China is also known for all-levels number fudging and revisionism, and state policy and culture has a tendency toward brigading that'd make tumblr blush, the "anti-china propaganda" tends to be a tad more credible, no?
  - chrischen 8y ago
    Is that how the process works now? Go with whoever tends to be be a "tad more credible." Everyone has agendas, and you'll go nowhere comparing the relative strength of everyone's agendas. Simply stating something likely done by Alibaba, but not necessarily true not only adds nothing to the conversation, but detracts from the journey to the truth. If we accept his statement as is, then you may as well accept anything anti-China simply based on the fact that it is anti-China. But doing so of course would be openly declaring yourself as an agenda-based biased actor.
    - parrellel 8y ago
      Not anything, but well, China's a corrupt totalitarian state that believes in information control and revisionism... and then there's also the element of performative solidarity in response to state actions (re: doping scandals, trade sanctions, Taiwan, etc). So, I'll sing praises to China when they do something praiseworthy, but by god I'm not trusting a statistic or a press brief coming out of that place, and no-one else with half a brain should either.

dominotw 8y ago

> This has nothing to with government interference > Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba Funding a local competitor is not interference? Chinese Government Has A Huge "Stake" In Alibaba https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaysomaney/2015/10/18/chinese-government-has-a-huge-stake-in-alibaba/#6128e03225b8 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaysomaney/2015/10/18/chinese-g...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

chapium 8y ago

My inlaws got antsie when a delivery took 4 hours to show up. Home delivery is very fast in China.

johnchristopher 8y ago
What kind of thing were they ordering and what was the distance traveled by the package, if you don't mind my asking ?
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
4 hours is a bit extreme unless you are getting it delivered from the store in your apartment complex (which happens...a lot).

ajross 8y ago

> Two day delivery is China is considered slow and nothing to be proud about. Within Beijing/Shanghai/Guangzhou, I'm sure that's true. Can Alibaba get a package delivered to Tibet in two days? Really this is just expressing the fact that effectively all of China's industrialized economy is concentrated in three urban centers.

intuitionist 8y ago
Are you counting Shenzhen as part of Guangzhou? Surely it’s a center of the Chinese industrial economy. And while they might not be industrial centers, there are tens of millions of middle-class Chinese in places like Chongqing, Wuhan, Nanjing who presumably order stuff online sometimes.
- ajross 8y ago
  I'm sure lots of people order stuff online, even in Tibet. I was asking for support for "two day shipping is no great shakes" upthread, which frankly I don't believe given the size of the country and the nature of its transportation grid.
  - hurrdurr2 8y ago
    You have no idea how developed China's internal shipping is.

Tsubasachan 8y ago

AliBaba is already gaining marketshare in Europe. The Chinese company supports local payment systems, their customer service is surprisingly good, they are actually hungry for business and most importantly CHEAP. Amazon got a bit arrogant and complacent. Probably because of their god status in the US. One of the best things about capitalism is that nobody is safe.

dang 8y ago

"Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]