8 ms·

This is why I don't get why companies--tech giants in particular--kowtow to China in the hopes of getting access to the Chinese market. It will never happen. At

by cletus 8y ago

This is why I don't get why companies--tech giants in particular--kowtow to China in the hopes of getting access to the Chinese market. It will never happen. At least, it won't be open access. You'll have to play by Chinese rules (ie integration with the Great Firewall, storing data in China, probably integration with social credit and so on). Worse, there might be (basically forced) "IP transfer". Even after all that, the government will make sure that you don't dominate any market. There'll be a Chinese version for that. There is absolutely zero point in trying to mollify the Chinese government.

supahfly_remix 8y ago
"kowtow" -- nice word choice! "In traditional China this ritual was performed by commoners making requests to the local magistrate, by the emperor to the shrine of Confucius, or by foreign representatives appearing before the emperor to establish trade relations." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow
- BoorishBears 8y ago
  I hate the way I've at least seen people use that word in the US. They almost exclusively use it in reference to China, and it's just awkward. Not racist, but just weirdly racial the way they use it and the tone is gross. Hard to put into words. Apparently this is a controversial revelation to some of you: https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2010/12/23/my-pet-peeve-racial-slur-and-a-small-every-day-insult/ https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2010/12/23/my-pet-peeve-rac...
  - jimrhods23 8y ago
    Why wouldn't you use in reference to China? It originates from the Cantonese language (probably because of the amount of Cantonese speakers in San Francisco back in the day) and in China.
    - BoorishBears 8y ago
      Most people will know what it means if I say el <insert word>. But it's like if I only say el <insert word> when my Mexican friend is around. Just weird, and not necessary. Or since that example apparently goes over some of your heads, it’s like how some of you only use “bruh” and “yo” and “what’s good” around me, your black coworker and no one else.
      - michaelscott 8y ago
        All your examples are false equivalences. The word "kowtow" is a perfect description of a relatively complicated ritual that didn't already have an English word for it (you could maybe substitute "placate" or "show deference" but these can have other meanings in different contexts). Words from other languages like "karaoke", "restaurant" and "prima donna" have always been incorporated into English when no specific substitute works well enough (of course this isn't specific to English, but it is a very English habit). Your Mexican example would be using (I assume?) the Spanish of whatever word would work just as well in English, and I've personally used and seen people use words like "bruh" and "yo" with lots of different people. In fact, where I'm from "bruh" is a very typical "white" thing to say.
        BoorishBears 8y ago
        All your of your comment is intentionally stripping things of context in a pathetic attempt disarm a fair argument without addressing the actual substance of it. Saying “kowtow”, “bruh”, “what’s good”. Not a problem. Someone who never says “bruh” or “what’s good” suddenly talking like they’re extras in a Migos music video to their black coworker is not cool. Saying kowtow, but only in reference to Asians and always using “appease” in other contexts, is not cool. Yeah I know HN is mostly white guys who squirm at the idea of race and think “I don’t see color” is an ok thing to say, but if you’re not going to at least try and take someone's arguments for full value, even if you don’t agree, don’t even respond, it’s insulting otherwise.
        Chris_Chambers 8y ago
  - mmargerum 8y ago
    (◔_◔)
bregma 8y ago
> I don't get why companies... kowtow to China in the hopes of getting access to the Chinese market. One whiff of the billions in potential revenue and the marketeers go into a rutting frenzy. It's only when they're doing the inevitable follow-up walk of shame that they realize what they've done.
fantasticsid 8y ago
They failed because they were not able to adapt to the Chinese market/have any competitive advantage against alibaba or JD which is the point the article is trying to make. None of what you mentioned is alluded in the article.
- atomical 8y ago
  Well, then, I guess the author of the comment must disagree with the article.
- product50 8y ago
  Or maybe pandaily was scared to say anything against China. Honestly, the fact that there was no talk about regulation in that article is a huge red flag. Why would China allow international companies to play in their turf when they eComm can generate 100s of billions of dollars of value for local companies (as it has)?
- cletus 8y ago
  My contention is that wouldn't matter. If they did adapt to the Chinese market and seriously started to eat market share from the likes of Alibaba I GUARANTEE you the rules would change to Amazon's disadvantage.
  - throwaway44562 8y ago
    Nah, I doubt it. Just look at how successful Apple and Microsoft are in China. Other brands too. You don’t see the government changing the laws so Li-Ning can beat Nike.
    - EduardoBautista 8y ago
      Apple and Microsoft both have products that don't have any Chinese equal. Competing with macOS or Windows is probably the hardest thing to do in the software world at the moment.
1PlayerOne 8y ago
While your criticism is valid, the article was trying to say that Amazon China was not responsive to local condition and competition. The slow response was the proximate cause of Amazon China's failure, but ultimately even if they were successfully competing they would have eventually ran into the problems you described.
sytelus 8y ago
Perhaps you didn’t read the article. This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba doing massive shopping festivals that easily rivals Thanksgiving. Two day delivery is China is considered slow and nothing to be proud about. On the top of this, it looks there were control issues where leaders at Amazon.cn weren’t empowered to make decisions. I actually would rather ask reverse question: why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery.
- navigatesol 8y ago
  >This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba And of course these local players are in no way supported or promoted by the government, right?
  - martinlaz 8y ago
    Could be... But then again, I find it hard to believe that if Alibaba ever starts overtaking Amazon in the US, the government will just stand and watch.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  I personally would defer judgement on why Amazon is leaving; Alibaba tends to be the most competitive of the Chinese internet companies, and has a corporate culture very similar to Amazon (frugal, but with 996). But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor, they are much more B2B than B2C, it’s only when you throw in TMall or Taobao that comparisons become more apt. When I was living in Beijing, my wife and I never used Alibaba, it was always JD.com or some other consumer oriented site, and even Amazon sometimes (though mostly because the Microsoft China trade Union kept giving us gift cards as a kickback).
  - reallydude 8y ago
    > But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor (in China) You mean JD. You could just say "JD" instead of the vague statement.
duxup 8y ago
Yeah paying to play on a playing field that will change the moment someone in power is supporting a competitor seems pretty absurd at face value.
bbrcn 8y ago
There is nothing to do with government. As someone shopping online almost everyday in China, I can tell you taobao.com, jd.com are far more better than amazon.com on every aspect. In JD.com if you place your order before 10 am most of the time you get delivery same day or the next day. In taobao you have way more stuff than in Amazon, you can find a live person to answer your question instantly. Amazon is like something from 5 years ago or even older. You have to send a email for customer service, it's unacceptable, the web design, the functionality are so dated compare to it's competitor. So no one use it here.
- taobility 8y ago
  Arrogant American people won't believe you. You are lying, Amazon is the best. US is No.1
partiallypro 8y ago
The only reason China lets foreign companies operate in their country is to steal from them, while temporarily enjoying their capital injection. Pretty par for the course in communist countries. Except China does it with IP, technique, etc; while other countries might have let a US company build the entire oil infrastructure and then just take it over once it's complete.

by cletus 8y ago

supahfly_remix 8y ago

"kowtow" -- nice word choice! "In traditional China this ritual was performed by commoners making requests to the local magistrate, by the emperor to the shrine of Confucius, or by foreign representatives appearing before the emperor to establish trade relations." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow

BoorishBears 8y ago
I hate the way I've at least seen people use that word in the US. They almost exclusively use it in reference to China, and it's just awkward. Not racist, but just weirdly racial the way they use it and the tone is gross. Hard to put into words. Apparently this is a controversial revelation to some of you: https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2010/12/23/my-pet-peeve-racial-slur-and-a-small-every-day-insult/ https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2010/12/23/my-pet-peeve-rac...
- jimrhods23 8y ago
  Why wouldn't you use in reference to China? It originates from the Cantonese language (probably because of the amount of Cantonese speakers in San Francisco back in the day) and in China.
  - BoorishBears 8y ago
    Most people will know what it means if I say el <insert word>. But it's like if I only say el <insert word> when my Mexican friend is around. Just weird, and not necessary. Or since that example apparently goes over some of your heads, it’s like how some of you only use “bruh” and “yo” and “what’s good” around me, your black coworker and no one else.
    - michaelscott 8y ago
      All your examples are false equivalences. The word "kowtow" is a perfect description of a relatively complicated ritual that didn't already have an English word for it (you could maybe substitute "placate" or "show deference" but these can have other meanings in different contexts). Words from other languages like "karaoke", "restaurant" and "prima donna" have always been incorporated into English when no specific substitute works well enough (of course this isn't specific to English, but it is a very English habit). Your Mexican example would be using (I assume?) the Spanish of whatever word would work just as well in English, and I've personally used and seen people use words like "bruh" and "yo" with lots of different people. In fact, where I'm from "bruh" is a very typical "white" thing to say.
      - BoorishBears 8y ago
        All your of your comment is intentionally stripping things of context in a pathetic attempt disarm a fair argument without addressing the actual substance of it. Saying “kowtow”, “bruh”, “what’s good”. Not a problem. Someone who never says “bruh” or “what’s good” suddenly talking like they’re extras in a Migos music video to their black coworker is not cool. Saying kowtow, but only in reference to Asians and always using “appease” in other contexts, is not cool. Yeah I know HN is mostly white guys who squirm at the idea of race and think “I don’t see color” is an ok thing to say, but if you’re not going to at least try and take someone's arguments for full value, even if you don’t agree, don’t even respond, it’s insulting otherwise.
        Chris_Chambers 8y ago
- mmargerum 8y ago
  (◔_◔)

bregma 8y ago

> I don't get why companies... kowtow to China in the hopes of getting access to the Chinese market. One whiff of the billions in potential revenue and the marketeers go into a rutting frenzy. It's only when they're doing the inevitable follow-up walk of shame that they realize what they've done.

fantasticsid 8y ago

They failed because they were not able to adapt to the Chinese market/have any competitive advantage against alibaba or JD which is the point the article is trying to make. None of what you mentioned is alluded in the article.

atomical 8y ago
Well, then, I guess the author of the comment must disagree with the article.
product50 8y ago
Or maybe pandaily was scared to say anything against China. Honestly, the fact that there was no talk about regulation in that article is a huge red flag. Why would China allow international companies to play in their turf when they eComm can generate 100s of billions of dollars of value for local companies (as it has)?
cletus 8y ago
My contention is that wouldn't matter. If they did adapt to the Chinese market and seriously started to eat market share from the likes of Alibaba I GUARANTEE you the rules would change to Amazon's disadvantage.
- throwaway44562 8y ago
  Nah, I doubt it. Just look at how successful Apple and Microsoft are in China. Other brands too. You don’t see the government changing the laws so Li-Ning can beat Nike.
  - EduardoBautista 8y ago
    Apple and Microsoft both have products that don't have any Chinese equal. Competing with macOS or Windows is probably the hardest thing to do in the software world at the moment.

1PlayerOne 8y ago

While your criticism is valid, the article was trying to say that Amazon China was not responsive to local condition and competition. The slow response was the proximate cause of Amazon China's failure, but ultimately even if they were successfully competing they would have eventually ran into the problems you described.

sytelus 8y ago

Perhaps you didn’t read the article. This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba doing massive shopping festivals that easily rivals Thanksgiving. Two day delivery is China is considered slow and nothing to be proud about. On the top of this, it looks there were control issues where leaders at Amazon.cn weren’t empowered to make decisions. I actually would rather ask reverse question: why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery.

navigatesol 8y ago
>This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba And of course these local players are in no way supported or promoted by the government, right?
- martinlaz 8y ago
  Could be... But then again, I find it hard to believe that if Alibaba ever starts overtaking Amazon in the US, the government will just stand and watch.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
I personally would defer judgement on why Amazon is leaving; Alibaba tends to be the most competitive of the Chinese internet companies, and has a corporate culture very similar to Amazon (frugal, but with 996). But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor, they are much more B2B than B2C, it’s only when you throw in TMall or Taobao that comparisons become more apt. When I was living in Beijing, my wife and I never used Alibaba, it was always JD.com or some other consumer oriented site, and even Amazon sometimes (though mostly because the Microsoft China trade Union kept giving us gift cards as a kickback).
- reallydude 8y ago
  > But Alibaba isn’t really Amazon’s main competitor (in China) You mean JD. You could just say "JD" instead of the vague statement.

duxup 8y ago

Yeah paying to play on a playing field that will change the moment someone in power is supporting a competitor seems pretty absurd at face value.

bbrcn 8y ago

There is nothing to do with government. As someone shopping online almost everyday in China, I can tell you taobao.com, jd.com are far more better than amazon.com on every aspect. In JD.com if you place your order before 10 am most of the time you get delivery same day or the next day. In taobao you have way more stuff than in Amazon, you can find a live person to answer your question instantly. Amazon is like something from 5 years ago or even older. You have to send a email for customer service, it's unacceptable, the web design, the functionality are so dated compare to it's competitor. So no one use it here.

taobility 8y ago
Arrogant American people won't believe you. You are lying, Amazon is the best. US is No.1

partiallypro 8y ago

The only reason China lets foreign companies operate in their country is to steal from them, while temporarily enjoying their capital injection. Pretty par for the course in communist countries. Except China does it with IP, technique, etc; while other countries might have let a US company build the entire oil infrastructure and then just take it over once it's complete.