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This is not a very compelling argument - "They're different from us, therefore we are not in a position to comment." There is a tremendous understanding, analys

This is not a very compelling argument - "They're different from us, therefore we are not in a position to comment." There is a tremendous understanding, analysis and comprehension of totalitarianism in the west. Even in popular culture, say 1984 by George Orwell.

jononor 8y ago
The argument was not that they are different, but that they are more collectively minded and put less value in "individual freedom". Totalitarianism seems an obviously bad thing wrt to individual freedom, but if that is not so important, it may not matter as much as we westerners think it should.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Well, maybe they're "more collectively minded" because they've been living under totalitarian regimes for millennia. And even if we accept (which I do) that some Western-style society is better, getting there would be hugely nontrivial. In particular, getting there would arguably involve considerable chaos. And so it's not that hard for those in control to play on people's fears about that. After all, Westerners have tried to impose democracy on China before, and it didn't work out very well. Back in the 60s, China was on track to be North Korea times 10^4 to 10^6. But Kissinger managed to convince Nixon to intervene in a constructive and noninvasive way. That clearly has worked, so what we need is arguably to stay on that track. On the other hand, isolating South Africa arguably did hasten the end of Apartheid. And if China undertakes full-on genocide against the Uyghurs, that may be the only moral path. But orders of magnitude more dangerous. And when we add global climate change to the mix, it'll be insane.
  - AvocadoPanic 8y ago
    South Africa really the best example of a 'successful' intervention?
    - mirimir 8y ago
      Have there been any truly successful forceful interventions?
      - Gpetrium 8y ago
        It depends on the definition of success for the involved parties. It doesn't always mean full captulation.
        mirimir 8y ago
        I meant more about long-term improved situation. I suppose that you could claim Germany or Japan as long-term successes. But the costs were immense.
  - true_religion 8y ago
    It's more collectively minded as many countries ended up with an figurehead emperor who acts as a symbol of the state, giving everyone something to bind themselves to even if they hate their local king.
    - bitcurious 8y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II
- tanilama 8y ago
  > but that they are more collectively minded and put less value in "individual freedom" Chinese people aren't drones. They don't have a hivemind to tell them what is good for them. Sacrifice for the country might be a thing during Mao's period, but I am not seeing it in nowadays' young generation. On the contrary, I think Chinese people believe less in the collective good. If the problem isn't your own problem, then it is everyone's problem, then it is no one's problem. That is why in so many situations, government becomes that last resort to figure stuff out. 'The mountains are tall, and the emperor is afar', as the old Chinese sayings goes. The ruthless authoritarianism and primitive freedom co-exist in China's case. There is pressure to conform, but only because not doing so, there will be pain. 'The bird who extends out its head most gets shot first', as they always say. Confucianism might be what the world, even China itself thinks about itself, how it is ruled upon. But Fajia (Legalism) is what actually gets executed in real life.
  - 0815test 8y ago
    It's hard to believe in the collective good when you haven't achieved basic economic security for yoursef. You see this everywhere - charity begins at home. And even "putting value in individual freedom", in a broadly political sense, is something that requires a sympathetic and collectively-minded outlook.
- mcguire 8y ago
  What do you expect to happen when their economy has its version of the great depression or the Japanese lost decades?
  - AlexCoventry 8y ago
    That's unlikely to happen unless the PRC loses a major war or becomes much more corrupt. They're ideologically and politically quite capable of re-engineering their financial system so it continues to allocate resources as they see fit, and they're not beholden to a great power with misaligned interests, the way Japan is.
maehwasu 8y ago
Analyzing widely differing cultures and peoples under the unitary framework of “totalitarianism” isn’t terribly compelling either. The Chinese government has shown remarkable staying power, and it’s important to analyze the ways/reasons it might continue to hold power, since that seems to be a quite likely outcome. The intuition that western liberal democracy is some sort of inevitable wave is very possibly just an artifact of the US winning WWII.
- ufmace 8y ago
  It seems like an ironic blind spot to me. Western liberals claim to be all about tolerance and diversity and multiculturalism, yet seem to have difficulty conceiving of the idea that maybe some other cultures genuinely don't want to turn into Western Liberal Democracies.
  - CamperBob2 8y ago
    Google "The Paradox of Tolerance," if you're allowed to. Some truths really are self-evident.
    - ufmace 8y ago
      I have read it. If you have a point you want to make, you're welcome to make it.
      - CamperBob2 8y ago
        If you didn't get the point when Karl Popper explained it, I doubt I'll be any more effective at conveying it here.
        lovemenot 8y ago
        Including myself, there's probably many other people reading this who have not read it and would like one or two of its salient points.
whoopdedo 8y ago
> therefore we are not in a position to comment. I did not read anything of the sort in that response. It stated that respondent disagreed with your conclusion and explained why. Are you conflating a difference of opinion with suppression of free expression? That does not seem a healthy attitude to have.

jononor 8y ago

The argument was not that they are different, but that they are more collectively minded and put less value in "individual freedom". Totalitarianism seems an obviously bad thing wrt to individual freedom, but if that is not so important, it may not matter as much as we westerners think it should.

mirimir 8y ago
Well, maybe they're "more collectively minded" because they've been living under totalitarian regimes for millennia. And even if we accept (which I do) that some Western-style society is better, getting there would be hugely nontrivial. In particular, getting there would arguably involve considerable chaos. And so it's not that hard for those in control to play on people's fears about that. After all, Westerners have tried to impose democracy on China before, and it didn't work out very well. Back in the 60s, China was on track to be North Korea times 10^4 to 10^6. But Kissinger managed to convince Nixon to intervene in a constructive and noninvasive way. That clearly has worked, so what we need is arguably to stay on that track. On the other hand, isolating South Africa arguably did hasten the end of Apartheid. And if China undertakes full-on genocide against the Uyghurs, that may be the only moral path. But orders of magnitude more dangerous. And when we add global climate change to the mix, it'll be insane.
- AvocadoPanic 8y ago
  South Africa really the best example of a 'successful' intervention?
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Have there been any truly successful forceful interventions?
    - Gpetrium 8y ago
      It depends on the definition of success for the involved parties. It doesn't always mean full captulation.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        I meant more about long-term improved situation. I suppose that you could claim Germany or Japan as long-term successes. But the costs were immense.
- true_religion 8y ago
  It's more collectively minded as many countries ended up with an figurehead emperor who acts as a symbol of the state, giving everyone something to bind themselves to even if they hate their local king.
  - bitcurious 8y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II
tanilama 8y ago
> but that they are more collectively minded and put less value in "individual freedom" Chinese people aren't drones. They don't have a hivemind to tell them what is good for them. Sacrifice for the country might be a thing during Mao's period, but I am not seeing it in nowadays' young generation. On the contrary, I think Chinese people believe less in the collective good. If the problem isn't your own problem, then it is everyone's problem, then it is no one's problem. That is why in so many situations, government becomes that last resort to figure stuff out. 'The mountains are tall, and the emperor is afar', as the old Chinese sayings goes. The ruthless authoritarianism and primitive freedom co-exist in China's case. There is pressure to conform, but only because not doing so, there will be pain. 'The bird who extends out its head most gets shot first', as they always say. Confucianism might be what the world, even China itself thinks about itself, how it is ruled upon. But Fajia (Legalism) is what actually gets executed in real life.
- 0815test 8y ago
  It's hard to believe in the collective good when you haven't achieved basic economic security for yoursef. You see this everywhere - charity begins at home. And even "putting value in individual freedom", in a broadly political sense, is something that requires a sympathetic and collectively-minded outlook.
mcguire 8y ago
What do you expect to happen when their economy has its version of the great depression or the Japanese lost decades?
- AlexCoventry 8y ago
  That's unlikely to happen unless the PRC loses a major war or becomes much more corrupt. They're ideologically and politically quite capable of re-engineering their financial system so it continues to allocate resources as they see fit, and they're not beholden to a great power with misaligned interests, the way Japan is.

maehwasu 8y ago

Analyzing widely differing cultures and peoples under the unitary framework of “totalitarianism” isn’t terribly compelling either. The Chinese government has shown remarkable staying power, and it’s important to analyze the ways/reasons it might continue to hold power, since that seems to be a quite likely outcome. The intuition that western liberal democracy is some sort of inevitable wave is very possibly just an artifact of the US winning WWII.

ufmace 8y ago
It seems like an ironic blind spot to me. Western liberals claim to be all about tolerance and diversity and multiculturalism, yet seem to have difficulty conceiving of the idea that maybe some other cultures genuinely don't want to turn into Western Liberal Democracies.
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  Google "The Paradox of Tolerance," if you're allowed to. Some truths really are self-evident.
  - ufmace 8y ago
    I have read it. If you have a point you want to make, you're welcome to make it.
    - CamperBob2 8y ago
      If you didn't get the point when Karl Popper explained it, I doubt I'll be any more effective at conveying it here.
      - lovemenot 8y ago
        Including myself, there's probably many other people reading this who have not read it and would like one or two of its salient points.

whoopdedo 8y ago

> therefore we are not in a position to comment. I did not read anything of the sort in that response. It stated that respondent disagreed with your conclusion and explained why. Are you conflating a difference of opinion with suppression of free expression? That does not seem a healthy attitude to have.