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I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless they actively pursued ways to prevent that from happening. And that's how you get organizations like code.org. That's how you get President Obama on the big screen, telling everyone to learn to code. That's how you get a GREAT job, and make it BLUE COLLAR.

cheez 8y ago
But nurse practitioners... God forbid they prescribe you antibiotics.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  Uhhh, they can prescribe antibiotics just like prescribing any other non-controlled drug.
  - cheez 8y ago
    I know, the fight was prolonged to even get to that point. These days you still only have nurse practitioners in hospitals, at least where I live.
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      Oh I get you. Credentialism is another level in health care.
gwright 8y ago
There is so much to disagree with here, but #1 is the disparaging attitude towards manual labor.
- d4mi3n 8y ago
  I can’t agree with this enough. The field of software is growing. It will change. That change may be for the better or worse. But I feel it’s unethical for those of us privileged to be in this field to act as gatekeepers and prevent others from having the same opportunities I (and I suspect many others had) when I entered it. If you want to keep making the big bucks, continue to provide meaningful value and skills that justify it.
- sixtypoundhound 8y ago
  Which is ironic, given what the plumber quoted us this week.
riazrizvi 8y ago
1000X yes. It’s the result of a PR campaign to increase the H1B Visa allotment. Love H1B employees, they are just delicious! Low wages and zero bargaining power otherwise it’s out of the country with you. It’s also funny because this creates a problem where wages have been driven down to a point where skilled workers can barely afford to support a family in tech zones. So because of these depressed wages in software engineering, there are fewer skilled workers living in these regions. Make no mistake this is software engineering specific. Otherwise show me roles in tech where there are lots of H1B visa employees.
- WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
  > Low wages and zero bargaining power Yeah, I also make a lot of money fixing their fuckups. They don't care, and as soon as they get sufficient grounds to become a citizen, they'll fuck off :)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- AareyBaba 8y ago
  I keep hearing this 'H1B low wages'. Here's my startup idea. You create a website with a list of job skills that 'slave wage companies (SWC)' are claiming to need to fill. You collect resumes from unemployed U.S.candidates with these skills and send them to the SWCs. If the candidate gets hired you keep a recruiters fee. If the candidate is rejected your startup lawyers sue the pants of the SWC for violating U.S H1B law. You pass on the settlement money to the rejected U.S. candidate keeping a percentage for your lawyer and your retirement fund. US H1B law is clearly explained online [0], there are searchable databases [1] and most recruiting/HR people will gladly spill the loophole secrets that they have (posting jobs in obscure local newspapers, tailoring job description to an existing known foreign candidate etc). [0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-fiscal-year-fy-2020-cap-season https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [1] https://h1bdata.info/index.php https://h1bdata.info/index.php You will be protecting American jobs and making money in the process.
canada_dry 8y ago
> That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Normally supply shortage --> higher costs. Let's be absolutely clear the goal was simply to bring in foreign workers to reduce salary costs.
ketzo 8y ago
It's an inherently high-paying field with room for both huge advancement and a lot of specificity/niches, not to mention that by its nature software engineering creates more software engineering jobs. God forbid we open that up to people who should be resigned to whatever you think "blue collar" means?
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  When you increase supply, wages decrease. Wages will decline if you open the field up to everyone. Understandably, not everyone in tech wants wages to decline. If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. What you're saying is, "God forbid you care about your quality of life so much you're not willing to keep running harder, faster on a treadmill until you lose your job and are no longer able to find another one due to so many candidates applying per job". No thanks. There's nothing wrong with trades and blue collar work. There's a reason you can't outsource plumbers, electricians, and other technicians who must be on site to practice their craft. But there's also a reason that work is so expensive: the skills required take time to acquire, and there's a limited pool of talent with those skills. Disclaimer: My personal stance is I want the labor market as tight as possible, for as long as possible, to push wages up for as many people as possible, while using government policy to put backstops in place that are progressively ratcheted forward.
  - cardine 8y ago
    >If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. Why is it your choice to make? Shouldn't it be the new people trying to get into the computer science industry who get to make that choice? It feels like what you're saying is "God forbid someone else tries to join your industry and tries to make a better life for themselves, and god forbid others for trying to help them."
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      > Why is it your choice to make? It's not my choice. It's the technology industry's collective choice to decide how welcoming the technology industry is to newcomers. I hope you have a more compelling argument than, "It's not fair." Life ain't fair; people have mortgage payments to make, kids to feed, and aren't likely to be willing to support emotional appeals that are going to decrease their quality of life, without any benefit to them.
empath75 8y ago
The best coders are always going to be paid like the best lawyers and doctors, even if there are a billion JavaScript developers out there.
zaroth 8y ago
Trying to teach “everyone” to code is like teaching everyone to draw in high school art classes. It gives a lot of people exposure to what it means to code/draw, the fundamental steps of coding/drawing but doesn’t increase the supply of coders/artists in the world to the point where the skilled artists/programmers become commonplace.
- mcnichol 8y ago
  I think you are making the mistake that enterprises who employ thousands of developers are looking for quality over butts in seats.
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Or at least, JavaScript and similar languages make programming much, much easier (and hence the barrier to entry much easier). As coding difficulty drops, and supply increases, the net effect will be a much higher demand for jobs than supply. And that's exactly where big tech wants it to be. edit: here comes the javascript developer downvotes.
    - 0_gravitas 8y ago
      I see this hyperbole a lot, any kid within a week can copy an online tutorial on how to make a static site, but it takes a long time to begin to think in a way that let's you do interesting/useful things on your own.
      - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
        I fall victim to it myself at times. It's classic expert talk, "oh, that's easy." Perhaps to you :)
    - antt 8y ago
      >Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Sorry is this a joke? Because I'm missing it.
yzmtf2008 8y ago
You honestly sounds like a broken record, looking at the cynicism from your comment history. If someone coming from just trainings on "code.org" is threatening your job safety, or god forbid making you "blue collar" like "those people", perhaps you should rethink whether your skill sets are adequate. Stop blaming other people.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  Blaming other people? Point out to me where I've ever blamed anyone for my situation. I blame big-tech for what they're doing to the software industry, but I blame nobody but myself for where I'm at in life. I'm very secure in my position, but only BECAUSE I am aware of how fragile and at-risk the entire industry is. One of the things I continually mention to people is that they need to specialize. Find a niche, and specialize. That's what I've done (and continue to do), and that's what I recommend everyone else do. I sound like a broken record to you? Good. I'm making my point, and will continue to, because hopefully it helps another developer out there stop and think about whether they're really that safe. If you want to burry your head in the sand, and be a stagnant developer with aging skills you go right ahead buddy. The future of software development is going to mean you make less money. Ignore it, go ahead. That's your prerogative.
- antt 8y ago
  Remember that time that the FAANGs admitted they stole a few hundred billion dollars from employees by forming a cartel? Start blaming other people, because they are out to get you.
- swoongoonz 8y ago
  I don't think it's that cynical. It's a known fact that Google and Apple created an agreement not to poach each other's talent to keep salaries low.
  - monkeyshelli 8y ago
    Maybe it would be a good time to unionize more to have bigger hammer to fight with..
sergiotapia 8y ago
150% - devs are slowly waking up to this fact. Behind the efforts to teach everybody to code are more sinister motives: lowering the salaries for engineers.
- cosmodisk 8y ago
  However,the reality is that most people simply can't do it. Take an average office and try to teach everyone how to code. after a month, 99% will know how to output text to console, 10% would probably be able to write a loop or two and maybe 1 or 2 guys will realise that development is their real calling. Those 2 guys will spend the next 5-7 years just to get to the point where people would start taking them serious and some senior engineer may even listen to what they have to say about system design. Writing a simple web based calculator is easy, however doing a proper enterprise level solution isn't something any bootcamp student gets anywhere near without 10 years of experience..
  - sergiotapia 8y ago
    Companies are long-term thinking. Who gives a shit if it takes 10 years, they can wait.
    - koala_man 8y ago
      A lot of the major tech companies are just barely ten years old themselves.
    - cosmodisk 8y ago
      Also, don't forget that development is pretty difficult job on its own,so as soon as it becomes a commodity,people will stop training and applying for these jobs,as there are plenty other jobs that are easier to do and pay the same.
- ghobs91 8y ago
  and yet the exact opposite is happening to software engineer salaries, their growth is outpacing tons of other fields.
throwaway9980 8y ago
I’m so tired of feeling constantly at war with the industry to justify my own existence. The business people desperately need you but they hate you for what they have to pay. They’re always thinking what if? What if we could outsource this to some magic 3rd world slave mine? What if we could hire some recent graduates or interns instead? What if we could get someone on an H1B and chain them to the desk? It’s the natural result of being labor. Don’t like it? Be an owner. The only alternative I can think of is for software to become a true profession with licensing and standards. This makes a lot of sense in a world fraught with security risks and ethics concerns about the usage of data. In the meantime, I’m getting ready to hang up the keyboard. All the dynamism and potential has been ground out of this career path. What’s left is crushing demands and compensation that just doesn’t cut it anymore.
- liquid153 8y ago
  Wow I thought I was the only one. I dont know how many years experience you have, but with 5 years experience my sentiments are the same. When I interview now it feels like "Dance monkey Dance", or dealing with a gatekeeper. Had plenty of interviews that were a waste of time, or I personally felt I was just invited to interview just for the Hiring Manager to deny and say they couldn't find the right "Talent"
  - Trisell 8y ago
    I agree every interview I’ve had has just been a variation of a coder wars puzzle with no help and asking for help renders you an inferior programmer not worth their time.
- around_here 8y ago
  Or you could fight for a strong socialist state and recognize that this whole article supports the labour theory of value. Especially when the other option aside becoming an oppressor is to build stronger walls around your slightly nicer gated community.
- TuringNYC 8y ago
  I've been at a Fortune 50 firm that thought they could do this. They went through two rounds of offshore firms, got burnt each time (large contractors delivered nothing, L1 workers cycled through every 4 months as they job hopped, etc., slick talkers did the sales and left the company holding a bag full of barely-legible-English workers actually trying to deliver the promised work) After two cycles, they started treating their local employees well. This was a big firm with much momentum. A small firm could be ruined by this. Sometimes the firm just needs to see the grass isnt necessarily greener on the other side. I got paid well and my business counterparts always know that when I said 3mo, I meant 3mo.
tigershark 8y ago
I don’t think it works this way. Sure, you can hire cattle for almost nothing, but don’t expect them to produce much more than shit.
coffeemug 8y ago
>There is NOT a shortage of software developers. What would have to be true for you to agree that there is a shortage of software developers? Big tech cos have total comp of ~$600k/engineer. Would you think there is a shortage if they had to pay $6m/engineer? $60m? How do you define "shortage"?
- freddie_mercury 8y ago
  Even after paying $600,000 per employee, Facebook still makes $600,000 profit per employee. So it is currently at a 50/50 split of the value created between the employee and the company. I would expect, in a skills shortage, that the employee would be able to demand a much greater share, something closer to -- or even temporarily above -- 100%. The absolute number, $60,000 or $600,000 or $6,000,000 doesn't seem relevant.
  - coffeemug 8y ago
    > I would expect, in a skills shortage, that the employee would be able to demand a much greater share, something closer to -- or even temporarily above -- 100%. It would be really interesting to compare salary/profit ratio of the tech industry to recognized labor shortages in other industries.
    - throwaway938nk1 8y ago
      I think much of what people are trying to say here is that there is no such thing as a labor shortage in any industry (assuming no artificial wage controls). Also, in the USA you often hear about insufficient supply of workers in certain work categories: software engineer, nurse, teacher. Are those the very highest paid work categories? If not, why aren't the highest paid categories said to be suffering from insufficient supply? You are of course right that the ratio of profit per employee and salary is irrelevant.
- riazrizvi 8y ago
  Those aren’t market wages. Those are compensation packages awarded to long tenured employees at cash cow companies as a form of golden handcuff to keep experts on specific in-house systems. They are paid out to keep employees from taking company secrets to competitors. They work because these compensation packages are so far off market that these employees would suffer a huge pay drop if they moved. So in no way do these rates reflect the market. However it is great food for this skill shortage narrative BS.
technion 8y ago
I'll say the same thing about security people. There's an executive who's been whining on LinkedIn about the major skills shortage in this area. Here's an ad his company put up. I've had it confirmed every individual line is non-negotiable. https://imgur.com/a/UX5wPDB https://imgur.com/a/UX5wPDB
- mesozoic 8y ago
  Good you wouldn't want to work for someone with that level of missing neurons anyway.
- morenoh149 8y ago
  all he has to do is go to defcon, and not care about certs. You'll find great security folks.
  - technion 8y ago
    On the contrary. He could go to Defcon and find it just validates his views. After all, it's a huge security gathering and noone meets his requirements.
sytelus 8y ago
Do you have anything to back this up? The OP article is a lot of complaining but almost no data except what seems like to be one lousy anecdote. I actually had been a hiring manager desperately needing people to fill open positions I had. I'm not saying I got zero resumes. The problem was that most resumes were sort of "I learned JavaScript and HTML 3 month ago" or "I'm a founder of my own company with 3 funky iOS apps". Nothing wrong with that but the folks I needed for my jobs had to have some experience with distributed computing, solid CS background with high performance algorithms design skills (yes, we actually used those complicated graph algorithms you only find in CS textbooks). These stuff you can't learn by going in to code school for a month. These skills requires years to master and possibly CS education. I would probably come across may be 1 candidate with anywhere close to this kind of background per month total. It would take me 3-6 months to fill one position - if I'm lucky. Often such candidates will have multiple offers and the probability that they would actually come onboard is less than 50%. Think about that for a bit and you should feel the frustration you might have if you actually were hiring manager for such positions.
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Sounds like you are looking at junior resumes for some reason, when what you need are experienced folks. You know, older people. If they need a refresher on an algorithm or two, well then you hand them a book or teach them. Like in the old days. Industry today wants a solution on a silver platter but the universe doesn’t work that way.
jmcqk6 8y ago
>There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. What is the line of reasoning than goes from 'there is a shortage of developers' to 'therefore, we need to pay less.'?
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  They don’t want to pay market rates, so promote a story to slow or reverse wage inflation. But “don’t wanna pay” (when companies and 1%ers are hoarding like never before) doesn’t equal a shortage.
  - jmcqk6 8y ago
    If there is a shortage, by supply and demand, wages should go up. If they want to pay less, they should be out saying that there is an over supply and they can get workers for whatever wage they actually want. You haven't explained how a shortage can lead to paying less on the part of companies... I still don't understand this logic.
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      > You haven't explained how a shortage can lead to paying less on the part of companies. There is no shortage. They promote the story of the shortage to pressure government to let in more indentured foreigners, with the slower goal of encouraging more locals to pursue those careers. You'll notice that "paying more" (the classical/rational economic solution) doesn't seem to be an option.

cheez 8y ago

But nurse practitioners... God forbid they prescribe you antibiotics.

Scoundreller 8y ago
Uhhh, they can prescribe antibiotics just like prescribing any other non-controlled drug.
- cheez 8y ago
  I know, the fight was prolonged to even get to that point. These days you still only have nurse practitioners in hospitals, at least where I live.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    Oh I get you. Credentialism is another level in health care.

gwright 8y ago

There is so much to disagree with here, but #1 is the disparaging attitude towards manual labor.

d4mi3n 8y ago
I can’t agree with this enough. The field of software is growing. It will change. That change may be for the better or worse. But I feel it’s unethical for those of us privileged to be in this field to act as gatekeepers and prevent others from having the same opportunities I (and I suspect many others had) when I entered it. If you want to keep making the big bucks, continue to provide meaningful value and skills that justify it.
sixtypoundhound 8y ago
Which is ironic, given what the plumber quoted us this week.

riazrizvi 8y ago

1000X yes. It’s the result of a PR campaign to increase the H1B Visa allotment. Love H1B employees, they are just delicious! Low wages and zero bargaining power otherwise it’s out of the country with you. It’s also funny because this creates a problem where wages have been driven down to a point where skilled workers can barely afford to support a family in tech zones. So because of these depressed wages in software engineering, there are fewer skilled workers living in these regions. Make no mistake this is software engineering specific. Otherwise show me roles in tech where there are lots of H1B visa employees.

WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
> Low wages and zero bargaining power Yeah, I also make a lot of money fixing their fuckups. They don't care, and as soon as they get sufficient grounds to become a citizen, they'll fuck off :)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
AareyBaba 8y ago
I keep hearing this 'H1B low wages'. Here's my startup idea. You create a website with a list of job skills that 'slave wage companies (SWC)' are claiming to need to fill. You collect resumes from unemployed U.S.candidates with these skills and send them to the SWCs. If the candidate gets hired you keep a recruiters fee. If the candidate is rejected your startup lawyers sue the pants of the SWC for violating U.S H1B law. You pass on the settlement money to the rejected U.S. candidate keeping a percentage for your lawyer and your retirement fund. US H1B law is clearly explained online [0], there are searchable databases [1] and most recruiting/HR people will gladly spill the loophole secrets that they have (posting jobs in obscure local newspapers, tailoring job description to an existing known foreign candidate etc). [0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-fiscal-year-fy-2020-cap-season https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [1] https://h1bdata.info/index.php https://h1bdata.info/index.php You will be protecting American jobs and making money in the process.

canada_dry 8y ago

> That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Normally supply shortage --> higher costs. Let's be absolutely clear the goal was simply to bring in foreign workers to reduce salary costs.

ketzo 8y ago

It's an inherently high-paying field with room for both huge advancement and a lot of specificity/niches, not to mention that by its nature software engineering creates more software engineering jobs. God forbid we open that up to people who should be resigned to whatever you think "blue collar" means?

toomuchtodo 8y ago
When you increase supply, wages decrease. Wages will decline if you open the field up to everyone. Understandably, not everyone in tech wants wages to decline. If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. What you're saying is, "God forbid you care about your quality of life so much you're not willing to keep running harder, faster on a treadmill until you lose your job and are no longer able to find another one due to so many candidates applying per job". No thanks. There's nothing wrong with trades and blue collar work. There's a reason you can't outsource plumbers, electricians, and other technicians who must be on site to practice their craft. But there's also a reason that work is so expensive: the skills required take time to acquire, and there's a limited pool of talent with those skills. Disclaimer: My personal stance is I want the labor market as tight as possible, for as long as possible, to push wages up for as many people as possible, while using government policy to put backstops in place that are progressively ratcheted forward.
- cardine 8y ago
  >If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. Why is it your choice to make? Shouldn't it be the new people trying to get into the computer science industry who get to make that choice? It feels like what you're saying is "God forbid someone else tries to join your industry and tries to make a better life for themselves, and god forbid others for trying to help them."
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    > Why is it your choice to make? It's not my choice. It's the technology industry's collective choice to decide how welcoming the technology industry is to newcomers. I hope you have a more compelling argument than, "It's not fair." Life ain't fair; people have mortgage payments to make, kids to feed, and aren't likely to be willing to support emotional appeals that are going to decrease their quality of life, without any benefit to them.

empath75 8y ago

The best coders are always going to be paid like the best lawyers and doctors, even if there are a billion JavaScript developers out there.

zaroth 8y ago

Trying to teach “everyone” to code is like teaching everyone to draw in high school art classes. It gives a lot of people exposure to what it means to code/draw, the fundamental steps of coding/drawing but doesn’t increase the supply of coders/artists in the world to the point where the skilled artists/programmers become commonplace.

mcnichol 8y ago
I think you are making the mistake that enterprises who employ thousands of developers are looking for quality over butts in seats.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Or at least, JavaScript and similar languages make programming much, much easier (and hence the barrier to entry much easier). As coding difficulty drops, and supply increases, the net effect will be a much higher demand for jobs than supply. And that's exactly where big tech wants it to be. edit: here comes the javascript developer downvotes.
  - 0_gravitas 8y ago
    I see this hyperbole a lot, any kid within a week can copy an online tutorial on how to make a static site, but it takes a long time to begin to think in a way that let's you do interesting/useful things on your own.
    - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
      I fall victim to it myself at times. It's classic expert talk, "oh, that's easy." Perhaps to you :)
  - antt 8y ago
    >Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Sorry is this a joke? Because I'm missing it.

yzmtf2008 8y ago

You honestly sounds like a broken record, looking at the cynicism from your comment history. If someone coming from just trainings on "code.org" is threatening your job safety, or god forbid making you "blue collar" like "those people", perhaps you should rethink whether your skill sets are adequate. Stop blaming other people.

rubicon33 8y ago
Blaming other people? Point out to me where I've ever blamed anyone for my situation. I blame big-tech for what they're doing to the software industry, but I blame nobody but myself for where I'm at in life. I'm very secure in my position, but only BECAUSE I am aware of how fragile and at-risk the entire industry is. One of the things I continually mention to people is that they need to specialize. Find a niche, and specialize. That's what I've done (and continue to do), and that's what I recommend everyone else do. I sound like a broken record to you? Good. I'm making my point, and will continue to, because hopefully it helps another developer out there stop and think about whether they're really that safe. If you want to burry your head in the sand, and be a stagnant developer with aging skills you go right ahead buddy. The future of software development is going to mean you make less money. Ignore it, go ahead. That's your prerogative.
antt 8y ago
Remember that time that the FAANGs admitted they stole a few hundred billion dollars from employees by forming a cartel? Start blaming other people, because they are out to get you.
swoongoonz 8y ago
I don't think it's that cynical. It's a known fact that Google and Apple created an agreement not to poach each other's talent to keep salaries low.
- monkeyshelli 8y ago
  Maybe it would be a good time to unionize more to have bigger hammer to fight with..

sergiotapia 8y ago

150% - devs are slowly waking up to this fact. Behind the efforts to teach everybody to code are more sinister motives: lowering the salaries for engineers.

cosmodisk 8y ago
However,the reality is that most people simply can't do it. Take an average office and try to teach everyone how to code. after a month, 99% will know how to output text to console, 10% would probably be able to write a loop or two and maybe 1 or 2 guys will realise that development is their real calling. Those 2 guys will spend the next 5-7 years just to get to the point where people would start taking them serious and some senior engineer may even listen to what they have to say about system design. Writing a simple web based calculator is easy, however doing a proper enterprise level solution isn't something any bootcamp student gets anywhere near without 10 years of experience..
- sergiotapia 8y ago
  Companies are long-term thinking. Who gives a shit if it takes 10 years, they can wait.
  - koala_man 8y ago
    A lot of the major tech companies are just barely ten years old themselves.
  - cosmodisk 8y ago
    Also, don't forget that development is pretty difficult job on its own,so as soon as it becomes a commodity,people will stop training and applying for these jobs,as there are plenty other jobs that are easier to do and pay the same.
ghobs91 8y ago
and yet the exact opposite is happening to software engineer salaries, their growth is outpacing tons of other fields.

throwaway9980 8y ago

I’m so tired of feeling constantly at war with the industry to justify my own existence. The business people desperately need you but they hate you for what they have to pay. They’re always thinking what if? What if we could outsource this to some magic 3rd world slave mine? What if we could hire some recent graduates or interns instead? What if we could get someone on an H1B and chain them to the desk? It’s the natural result of being labor. Don’t like it? Be an owner. The only alternative I can think of is for software to become a true profession with licensing and standards. This makes a lot of sense in a world fraught with security risks and ethics concerns about the usage of data. In the meantime, I’m getting ready to hang up the keyboard. All the dynamism and potential has been ground out of this career path. What’s left is crushing demands and compensation that just doesn’t cut it anymore.

liquid153 8y ago
Wow I thought I was the only one. I dont know how many years experience you have, but with 5 years experience my sentiments are the same. When I interview now it feels like "Dance monkey Dance", or dealing with a gatekeeper. Had plenty of interviews that were a waste of time, or I personally felt I was just invited to interview just for the Hiring Manager to deny and say they couldn't find the right "Talent"
- Trisell 8y ago
  I agree every interview I’ve had has just been a variation of a coder wars puzzle with no help and asking for help renders you an inferior programmer not worth their time.
around_here 8y ago
Or you could fight for a strong socialist state and recognize that this whole article supports the labour theory of value. Especially when the other option aside becoming an oppressor is to build stronger walls around your slightly nicer gated community.
TuringNYC 8y ago
I've been at a Fortune 50 firm that thought they could do this. They went through two rounds of offshore firms, got burnt each time (large contractors delivered nothing, L1 workers cycled through every 4 months as they job hopped, etc., slick talkers did the sales and left the company holding a bag full of barely-legible-English workers actually trying to deliver the promised work) After two cycles, they started treating their local employees well. This was a big firm with much momentum. A small firm could be ruined by this. Sometimes the firm just needs to see the grass isnt necessarily greener on the other side. I got paid well and my business counterparts always know that when I said 3mo, I meant 3mo.

tigershark 8y ago

I don’t think it works this way. Sure, you can hire cattle for almost nothing, but don’t expect them to produce much more than shit.

coffeemug 8y ago

>There is NOT a shortage of software developers. What would have to be true for you to agree that there is a shortage of software developers? Big tech cos have total comp of ~$600k/engineer. Would you think there is a shortage if they had to pay $6m/engineer? $60m? How do you define "shortage"?

freddie_mercury 8y ago
Even after paying $600,000 per employee, Facebook still makes $600,000 profit per employee. So it is currently at a 50/50 split of the value created between the employee and the company. I would expect, in a skills shortage, that the employee would be able to demand a much greater share, something closer to -- or even temporarily above -- 100%. The absolute number, $60,000 or $600,000 or $6,000,000 doesn't seem relevant.
- coffeemug 8y ago
  > I would expect, in a skills shortage, that the employee would be able to demand a much greater share, something closer to -- or even temporarily above -- 100%. It would be really interesting to compare salary/profit ratio of the tech industry to recognized labor shortages in other industries.
  - throwaway938nk1 8y ago
    I think much of what people are trying to say here is that there is no such thing as a labor shortage in any industry (assuming no artificial wage controls). Also, in the USA you often hear about insufficient supply of workers in certain work categories: software engineer, nurse, teacher. Are those the very highest paid work categories? If not, why aren't the highest paid categories said to be suffering from insufficient supply? You are of course right that the ratio of profit per employee and salary is irrelevant.
riazrizvi 8y ago
Those aren’t market wages. Those are compensation packages awarded to long tenured employees at cash cow companies as a form of golden handcuff to keep experts on specific in-house systems. They are paid out to keep employees from taking company secrets to competitors. They work because these compensation packages are so far off market that these employees would suffer a huge pay drop if they moved. So in no way do these rates reflect the market. However it is great food for this skill shortage narrative BS.

technion 8y ago

I'll say the same thing about security people. There's an executive who's been whining on LinkedIn about the major skills shortage in this area. Here's an ad his company put up. I've had it confirmed every individual line is non-negotiable. https://imgur.com/a/UX5wPDB https://imgur.com/a/UX5wPDB

mesozoic 8y ago
Good you wouldn't want to work for someone with that level of missing neurons anyway.
morenoh149 8y ago
all he has to do is go to defcon, and not care about certs. You'll find great security folks.
- technion 8y ago
  On the contrary. He could go to Defcon and find it just validates his views. After all, it's a huge security gathering and noone meets his requirements.

sytelus 8y ago

Do you have anything to back this up? The OP article is a lot of complaining but almost no data except what seems like to be one lousy anecdote. I actually had been a hiring manager desperately needing people to fill open positions I had. I'm not saying I got zero resumes. The problem was that most resumes were sort of "I learned JavaScript and HTML 3 month ago" or "I'm a founder of my own company with 3 funky iOS apps". Nothing wrong with that but the folks I needed for my jobs had to have some experience with distributed computing, solid CS background with high performance algorithms design skills (yes, we actually used those complicated graph algorithms you only find in CS textbooks). These stuff you can't learn by going in to code school for a month. These skills requires years to master and possibly CS education. I would probably come across may be 1 candidate with anywhere close to this kind of background per month total. It would take me 3-6 months to fill one position - if I'm lucky. Often such candidates will have multiple offers and the probability that they would actually come onboard is less than 50%. Think about that for a bit and you should feel the frustration you might have if you actually were hiring manager for such positions.

mixmastamyk 8y ago
Sounds like you are looking at junior resumes for some reason, when what you need are experienced folks. You know, older people. If they need a refresher on an algorithm or two, well then you hand them a book or teach them. Like in the old days. Industry today wants a solution on a silver platter but the universe doesn’t work that way.

jmcqk6 8y ago

>There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. What is the line of reasoning than goes from 'there is a shortage of developers' to 'therefore, we need to pay less.'?

mixmastamyk 8y ago
They don’t want to pay market rates, so promote a story to slow or reverse wage inflation. But “don’t wanna pay” (when companies and 1%ers are hoarding like never before) doesn’t equal a shortage.
- jmcqk6 8y ago
  If there is a shortage, by supply and demand, wages should go up. If they want to pay less, they should be out saying that there is an over supply and they can get workers for whatever wage they actually want. You haven't explained how a shortage can lead to paying less on the part of companies... I still don't understand this logic.
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    > You haven't explained how a shortage can lead to paying less on the part of companies. There is no shortage. They promote the story of the shortage to pressure government to let in more indentured foreigners, with the slower goal of encouraging more locals to pursue those careers. You'll notice that "paying more" (the classical/rational economic solution) doesn't seem to be an option.