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Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses un
by b212 7y ago
Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose maybe some people really fall for it after investing so much time? Once or twice an US SV startup asked if I’ll allow them to install some tracking software on my machine. Meanwhile no developer in my country even responds to offers if the salary is not given in the offer even before the interview kicks in. What’s wrong with the American market? Are there too many developers or what?
(sorry for the typos, fat fingers and small phone)
- mkurz 7y agoCan you tell us which Eastern European country do you live? What are your skills? Thanks!
- Drdrdrq 7y agoWas curious myself, based in on his other comments, it's Poland.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- bufferoverflow 7y agoYeah, but then you have to breathe in coal. Dirtiest air in the EU.
- edoceo 7y agoThis site disagrees with your opinion http://airindex.eea.europa.eu http://airindex.eea.europa.eu
- bufferoverflow 7y agoDoes it? I see a large concentration of red dots over Poland, and some over Belgium-France border, all due to coal plants. Then there's UK. Poland takes second place with an overall score of 5.5/10. The carbon dioxide emissions in poland are 7.63 tonnes per capita per year, which is higher than the winner Turkey. The concentrations of PM2.5 are 22 µg/m3 which is almost half of Turkey’s concentrations. There are 69 deaths attributable to air pollution per 100,000 capita per year. Poland consists of 30.8% forest area and 38.10% protected terrestrial and marine area. Each year, the citizens of Poland discard 304.9 kg of waste per capita.
- edoceo 7y agoYes. From your own quote: Poland, second place (over all) World Atlas has them at #3 https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cities-with-the-worst-air-quality-in-europe.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cities-with-the-worst-ai... So...not "dirtiest"
- oska 7y agoAs a third party, I appreciate the links you've provided but you're being pedantic about Poland having to be strictly 'the dirtiest'.
- bufferoverflow 7y agoSecond after Turkey, which is not in the EU.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- meddlepal 7y agoI don't know about the EU business culture, but in the US you are expected to negotiate. You really have to fight for every penny you want...
- Scarblac 7y agoBut we're talking about someone who already has a job, and the new company wants to entice away from that. What kind of negotiating tactic is it to start at 60% of current salary?
- pm90 7y agoWell, the OP mentioned that the recruiter thought the candidate was lying which is why they low-balled. So that explains the logic at least. They're not stupid, but they don't trust candidates I guess. Which is a whole different thing.
- sverige 7y ago> the recruiter thought the candidate was lying > they don't trust candidates ...which is a great tell for what kind of relationship you would be starting if you did take the offer.
- bsanr2 7y agoMy understanding is that it IS common to lie, or else to redirect the conversation from what was made in the last position to what is desired for the new position. Why should it matter? You're being hired to fill a position that's worth x amount of compensation; the primary reason to ask for prior compensation seems to be to to get a "deal" (i.e., rob an employee of potential earnings).
- bayesian_horse 7y agoThere's no such thing as "worth X amount of compensation". The way it's supposed to work is that you and your employer (who represents the capital) generate a return from your joint venture. But the actual return is hard to predict. And there is no fair and obvious way to divvy up the return. So it comes down to negotiation power. There also may not be any condition where you and the capital agree to join. The capital may have better options to generate a return and you may have better options to get a salary.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago> Is this an American thing? happened to me in Italy, about same script. salary expectations set from the start, two phone and two on site interviews with stellar feedback then they offered 2/3rd of current total comp. like, thanks for waiting me three vacation days.
- andrei_says_ 7y agoI highly highly recommend Lab Rats by Dan Lyons. Dissects the forces behind the current state of the workforce in the US. Very well written and exposes the brutality and destruction resulting from focusing on short term profit at any cost.
- b212 7y agoThanks, added to my list. The topic looks kinda depressing though...
- andrei_says_ 7y agoA lot of what people in power driven by greed do in the absence of long term vision or compassion, is depressing. However, such actions are also detrimental to sustainable/thriving business. So smart people find more constructive and humane ways to be profitable. The book ends on a high note and carries the potential to help leaders correct course before self destruction.
- propogandist 7y agohttps://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/ https://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valle... >...wages were artificially lowered — an estimated $9 billion effectively stolen by the high-flying companies from their workers to pad company earnings — in the second half of the 2000s... All these firms settled for a measly $334 million to make this problem go away, despite damning evidence.
- anxman 7y agoThis was a shameful crime that occurred at the highest levels in Silicon Valley. This illegal cartel should have been prosecuted under RICO laws with CEOs taken away in hand cuffs. Instead, the worker bees got peanuts. I received a $1300 settlement instead or the hundreds of thousands in lost wages that I was robbed of.
- bufferoverflow 7y agoUS salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good. So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.
- bbbobbb 7y agoWhat does that have to do with anything he said?
- b212 7y agoThis is relative. 5000€ is $5623. You can maintain a "normal" life standard around here for about $800 (renting a studio / two room flat in the city centre + all the expenses, no car but I never needed one - the subway takes me to the furthest parts of town in 25 minutes, walking to work is not unusual). So you're saving more or less 5000$ every month. How much do you have to earn in SV to rent a place for your own next to your office and still save 5 grand a month? :) Anyway I get your point and in general yeah, US salaries are of course on a whole new level and I won't even argue with that. I'm not trying to say Warsaw is better for programmers than SV because it never was and never will be - yet we still managed, within last 5 years or so, managed to do something you somehow can't do - we trained HRs, agencies, recruiters etc. And they willingly act as we please. Because there's an incredibly high demand for programmers and no one has time for games like US companies play. And I still can't wrap my mind around this - if company Y or X is so desperately seeking for employees and pays them bazillions of dollars - why they even consider burning so much time on the process of hiring? Hiring is hard, I get that, but it's much easier if you disclose the salary. And in Poland right now hiring is impossible if the salary is unknown. And it's not even required by law (though it is supposed to be).
- galfarragem 7y agoBargaining doesn't seem to work at scale (countries with bargaining habits don't do good economically) and it rapidly becomes a big waste of time for everybody.
- jldugger 7y ago> I live in Eastern Europe Well, a number of people use Eastern Europe location as a filter for 'cheap labor'. And SV startups tend to have crap wages to begin with, but offer equity to compensate. I could imagine a few startups seeking to crimp further. > Meanwhile no developer in my country even responds to offers if the salary is not given ... before the interview Posting salaries is rare in the US. It's becoming the law in California, but this is hardly universal. There's an expectation that you'll negotiate, but they're really hoping you won't. And plenty of US engineers assume if you don't post a salary, it's because the budget for the position is low.
- darkhorn 7y ago>Well, a number of people use Eastern Europe location as a filter for 'cheap labor'. Thanks for the idea. As East European I'll use this opportunity to improve my English speaking skills (on the phone).
- pmiller2 7y ago> Posting salaries is rare in the US. It's becoming the law in California, but this is hardly universal. Citation needed on that. I really hope you’re right and I’m ignorant here, but I think you may be confusing it with the recent state law that makes it illegal for prospective employers to ask about salary history and theoretically requires them to give a salary range to an applicant when asked. I say “theoretically,” because there’s no way for anyone outside the company to verify that the salary range they give is in any way related to the budgeted range.
- kraigie 7y ago>Well, a number of people use Eastern Europe location as a filter for 'cheap labor'. It's particularly hilarious when you realise that some eastern Europe places outsource to the US Midwest because it's cheaper....
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- physiker1990 7y agoHi, can you kindly answer the following questions: How much experience do you have? What is your current technology stack? Is the salary which you stated based on an 8 hour workday 5 days a week schedule? How much late sitting do you do, if any? What is your typical work load, I mean do you solve complex problems all day long or do you just stitch libraries together? The salary which you stated looks a bit unbelievable. Thanks.
- StavrosK 7y agoNot the GP, but I make 10k a month, 15 years experience, Python/Django stack, 4 days a week 8 hours a day, no staying late at all necessary, I usually stitch libraries together, although solving complex problems all day long would be better. I hope that helps!
- deepsun 7y ago> What’s wrong with the American market? Well, here in SV, everyone kinda knows what other companies pay. You just didn't have friends in SV to tell you before the interview how much that company pays. In general, there are top-tier companies, FAANG + Uber + Lyft + AirBnB, that pay X. Then there are lower-tier companies and startups that pay roughly X / 2. So, you're unlikely to get FAANG total comp at a no-name startup.
- misterman0 7y ago>> You just didn't have... >> So you're unlikely to get... You have crafted a strange model. What are the upsides to such a system, to you, the employee?
- aaronbrethorst 7y agoWhat are the upsides to such a system, to you, the employee? You get to learn first-hand why being a non-founder at a startup is almost always a bad deal in terms of compensation.
- kraig911 7y agoI apologize because I've worked for people who truly think eastern europe is nothing but goat farmers etc. Literally I think american corps in some aspect are trying to scrape talent from places (they think) are 3rd world countries.
- allendoerfer 7y agoThose people are overpaid and should not work in any corporate setting, since they are clearly missing basic highschool level education about how society works. Eastern Europe is/was very obviously the second world and is kind of defining what's the 3rd world (neither team East nor team West).
- gigatexal 7y ago5k after taxes is nice! I’m in Western Europe and make only 3K after taxes but rent and utilities is half my take home. Suffice to say I’m juat getting by.
- retiredcoder 7y agoIt is not just American companies but big companies treat different labor markets differently. For example, I used to work for a big company in Denmark that has a sattelite office in Bucharest. It is questionable to see that even the equipment the developers get there was subpar. The fulltimers there were treated as contractors (e.g.: no career incentives), expendable (high turnover). The office just existed because when the company was smaller and needed more than now cheaper labor, they made it so that remote managers could be there as a proxy.
- ChuckNorris89 7y agoAre you from my former employer? :) Joke aside, what you said above also applied in my case to my ex German employer in Eastern Europe. We got cheap machines with half the specs of the German counterparts but the management in The Mother Land expected the same productivity as the German colleagues. Now, having migrated West to Austria(similar culture to Germany) tings don't get better an all accounts, even if you speak German. Sure, now you get nicer machines, and even if you manage to negotiate a salary close to local levels, your career development opportunities are close to zero as management will only propose the locals for promotions and trainings as those are the guys managers spend their lunches and cigarette breaks with, even if they're mildly incompetent. You'll be left as that guy who just needs to sit as his desk, do what he's told and be grateful to his masters he's been given a job as if you're coming form a country of goat hearders. This horrible discriminatory culture in EU countries is not something the EU can't fix unfortunately and it's one of the reasons countries like Germany or the EU as a whole will never catch up to the US on innovation or salaries in tech.
- retiredcoder 7y agoHehe, I’d sadly say no, chances are we don’t have the same employer but the general tech in Europe is still old IT / cost center. I am not in a stage of life for pursuing promotions to give more anedata on that, but I can see that a lot of senior managers here in Denmark are not immigrants. I do see however that there is a wave of immigrant founders here. Let’s see if the economic environment will perdure long enough to see a greater change.