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It’s too late for western companies to stop the leakage. The Chinese regime planted their “spies” everywhere in academia & industry through multi-decade onslaug

It’s too late for western companies to stop the leakage. The Chinese regime planted their “spies” everywhere in academia & industry through multi-decade onslaught. The companies and governments just kept looking the other way and the chickens are coming home to roost.

wrong_variable 8y ago
Nice to bundle all Chinese people. Most of this "spies" are trying to escape China ! all the regime did was offer them more money / opportunity than what they went to the West to find. China could have achieved it through "turing" normal white citizens too / but I guess they are the real patriots ? Mark Zukerburg learnt mandarin for god's sake. Its a game among capitalists and most of us regardless of nationality will switch sides to whoever gives the most value.
- zarkov99 8y ago
  Speak for yourself there. Not everyone is driven by money above all things.
  - chrobic72j7 8y ago
    > Speak for yourself there. Not everyone is driven by money above all things. Considering most people spend 8+ hours a day working for money, I'd say yes, everyone is driven by money above all things. Just look at the millineals, I mean, excuse me, new college grads. They shit talk Facebook's ethics, but the moment they receive a $100,000 job offer from Facebook, their ethics go out the window and they accept the offer from this "shady-ass" company.
    - keiferski 8y ago
      Facebook employs about 35,000 people. The millennial generation includes about 71,000,000 people. How the former can be used by you to represent the views of the later is a mystery to me.
- wavefunction 8y ago
  I don't consider Mark Zuckerberg a model except for what not to do. I'd learn Mandarin because I want to communicate with Mandarin speakers.
- rarecoil 8y ago
  > Most of this "spies" are trying to escape China ! all the regime did was offer them more money / opportunity than what they went to the West to find. Your second sentence directly contradicts the first. The "spies" aren't escaping China - they're playing whatever side has more money to throw at them.
  - princeofwands 8y ago
    It is not about money. It is about people with family in China. This is the most common pressure point that turns them. Then they have to recruit other Chinese people abroad. Anyway, like said elsewhere, spying only gets them so far. As a gross generalization: The Chinese lack the creativity and originality to further develop the stolen technology. Somehow, this seems more of a Western skill set. I suppose, because creativity and disruption takes a modicum of rebellion against the rules / authorities, and so you can't have both 996 obedience and creativity.
steve19 8y ago
I think the West could if it wanted to do so, but the West (a collection of States and companies) is not a centrally controlled entity like China (one state, which has more or less absolute control on how organizations within the state operate). Western companies do not care about losing IP. They say they care but they don't really. It is just a cost of doing business. They know they are losing IP, but they are going for short term profit (either from the Chinese market or from cheaper manufacturing in China). When the chickens come home to roost the CEO will have been paid big bonuses and ready to move on. If the CEO did not save costs or expand into China, shareholders would have revolted and replaced the CEO anyway. The West (USA + Canada, EU + UK, Australia) could circle the wagons, form a trading bloc, essentially negotiate with China as a single entity and start a trade war if China did not bend. But even if they wanted to do so, the cost would be high in the short term and voters would punish them. What might stop China is if another large country such as India, Indonesia or Nigeria decided to position themselves as the ethical alternative: cheap labor and manufacturing without the rampant state sponsored IP theft.
- sacheendra 8y ago
  How is cheap labour where people commit suicide ethical in any way? One of the reasons Chinese companies can manufacture so cheaply is the possibility of IP theft. The west want to pay their poor less to manufacture things cheaply. The Chinese want to pay the western rich less to use their technology. Calling IP theft unethical in a sentence with cheap labour is oxymoronic.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    Wasn't Foxconn's suicide rate in line with the nation's averages?
    - pcr0 8y ago
      It was less than the national average, 14/million vs 22/million [0]. Nonetheless, they did have a problem with illegal overtime, abusive management, a lack of breaks and discrimination [1]. A lot has changed since then due to pressure from both Apple and the Chinese government. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-chinese-suicides-and-the-amazing-economics-of-ha-joon-chang/#2a9e7ef236a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-c... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports
chillacy 8y ago
If you’re insinuating that every immigrant from China is a “spy” then a significant chunk of our tech infrastructure is built by these spies in the first place.
- karterk 8y ago
  Read again, that's not what the OP is insinuating. In any case, this is a serious issue that deserves a serious discussion without getting angry.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    I don’t think you can lay claim what OP is intending to say unless you’re OP. The best either of us can do is share our interpretation, and others can feel free to pile on. I’m happy to discuss how to maintain tech superiority in America as long as it doesn’t turn into a witch-hunt against immigrants. It’s far easier to fan fears than to calm them, this should be reflected in how we communicate.
    - threatofrain 8y ago
      Speaking argumentatively, I’d assert the audience controls your meaning more than you do; after all, meaning in communication is a negotiation between more than one powers. I think of a famous author angrily leaving a guest lecture when students don’t agree with the interpretation, or like with JK Rowling adding interpretation behind her characters after the Harry Potter books.
      - chillacy 8y ago
        Yea I agree. You’re talking about meaning, which i assume to mean “what each person derives from your words”. And like I said above, I would define intent as “what meaning the author wishes for people to imbue”, if you want to get crisp.
- frozenport 8y ago
  Yeah, they offered to do the work for cheaper
throwawaybeijjj 8y ago
Companies have been moving both R&D and manufacturing out of China; more companies need to do the same, and faster. Then that's one less channel China can use to steal technologies. - Sony closing smartphone plant in China, moving production to Thailand https://www.gizmochina.com/2019/03/28/sony-closing-smartphone-plant-in-china-moving-production-to-thailand/ https://www.gizmochina.com/2019/03/28/sony-closing-smartphon... - Samsung Downsizes China Operations With Factory Closure https://www.wsj.com/articles/samsung-downsizes-china-operations-with-factory-closure-11544683980 https://www.wsj.com/articles/samsung-downsizes-china-operati... - Taiwan server makers under pressure to speed up move-out from China https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20181008PD212.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20181008PD212.html - Foxconn moves manufacturing out of China https://www.freightwaves.com/news/economics/foxconn-moves-out-of-china https://www.freightwaves.com/news/economics/foxconn-moves-ou... - GoPro is moving camera production out of China, citing tariff worries https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/10/gopro-is-moving-camera-production-out-of-china-over-tariff-concerns.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/10/gopro-is-moving-camera-produ... - Ricoh shifts production out of China https://www.therecycler.com/posts/ricoh-shifts-production-out-of-china/ https://www.therecycler.com/posts/ricoh-shifts-production-ou... - Amazon will no longer sell Chinese goods in China https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/tech/amazon-closes-china/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/tech/amazon-closes-china/inde...
- fireattack 8y ago
  I agree with you but that Amazon one is not really the same thing. And "stop selling China goods" is a very weird way to word it, even though it's technically correct. what they're doing is essentially closing their China branch due to low market share, but keep the "imported goods" portion because they still have some edge on that regard due to Amazon's global presence.
odiroot 8y ago
Oh yes, we need more Red Scare.

wrong_variable 8y ago

Nice to bundle all Chinese people. Most of this "spies" are trying to escape China ! all the regime did was offer them more money / opportunity than what they went to the West to find. China could have achieved it through "turing" normal white citizens too / but I guess they are the real patriots ? Mark Zukerburg learnt mandarin for god's sake. Its a game among capitalists and most of us regardless of nationality will switch sides to whoever gives the most value.

zarkov99 8y ago
Speak for yourself there. Not everyone is driven by money above all things.
- chrobic72j7 8y ago
  > Speak for yourself there. Not everyone is driven by money above all things. Considering most people spend 8+ hours a day working for money, I'd say yes, everyone is driven by money above all things. Just look at the millineals, I mean, excuse me, new college grads. They shit talk Facebook's ethics, but the moment they receive a $100,000 job offer from Facebook, their ethics go out the window and they accept the offer from this "shady-ass" company.
  - keiferski 8y ago
    Facebook employs about 35,000 people. The millennial generation includes about 71,000,000 people. How the former can be used by you to represent the views of the later is a mystery to me.
wavefunction 8y ago
I don't consider Mark Zuckerberg a model except for what not to do. I'd learn Mandarin because I want to communicate with Mandarin speakers.
rarecoil 8y ago
> Most of this "spies" are trying to escape China ! all the regime did was offer them more money / opportunity than what they went to the West to find. Your second sentence directly contradicts the first. The "spies" aren't escaping China - they're playing whatever side has more money to throw at them.
- princeofwands 8y ago
  It is not about money. It is about people with family in China. This is the most common pressure point that turns them. Then they have to recruit other Chinese people abroad. Anyway, like said elsewhere, spying only gets them so far. As a gross generalization: The Chinese lack the creativity and originality to further develop the stolen technology. Somehow, this seems more of a Western skill set. I suppose, because creativity and disruption takes a modicum of rebellion against the rules / authorities, and so you can't have both 996 obedience and creativity.

steve19 8y ago

I think the West could if it wanted to do so, but the West (a collection of States and companies) is not a centrally controlled entity like China (one state, which has more or less absolute control on how organizations within the state operate). Western companies do not care about losing IP. They say they care but they don't really. It is just a cost of doing business. They know they are losing IP, but they are going for short term profit (either from the Chinese market or from cheaper manufacturing in China). When the chickens come home to roost the CEO will have been paid big bonuses and ready to move on. If the CEO did not save costs or expand into China, shareholders would have revolted and replaced the CEO anyway. The West (USA + Canada, EU + UK, Australia) could circle the wagons, form a trading bloc, essentially negotiate with China as a single entity and start a trade war if China did not bend. But even if they wanted to do so, the cost would be high in the short term and voters would punish them. What might stop China is if another large country such as India, Indonesia or Nigeria decided to position themselves as the ethical alternative: cheap labor and manufacturing without the rampant state sponsored IP theft.

sacheendra 8y ago
How is cheap labour where people commit suicide ethical in any way? One of the reasons Chinese companies can manufacture so cheaply is the possibility of IP theft. The west want to pay their poor less to manufacture things cheaply. The Chinese want to pay the western rich less to use their technology. Calling IP theft unethical in a sentence with cheap labour is oxymoronic.
- chillacy 8y ago
  Wasn't Foxconn's suicide rate in line with the nation's averages?
  - pcr0 8y ago
    It was less than the national average, 14/million vs 22/million [0]. Nonetheless, they did have a problem with illegal overtime, abusive management, a lack of breaks and discrimination [1]. A lot has changed since then due to pressure from both Apple and the Chinese government. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-chinese-suicides-and-the-amazing-economics-of-ha-joon-chang/#2a9e7ef236a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-c... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports

chillacy 8y ago

If you’re insinuating that every immigrant from China is a “spy” then a significant chunk of our tech infrastructure is built by these spies in the first place.

karterk 8y ago
Read again, that's not what the OP is insinuating. In any case, this is a serious issue that deserves a serious discussion without getting angry.
- chillacy 8y ago
  I don’t think you can lay claim what OP is intending to say unless you’re OP. The best either of us can do is share our interpretation, and others can feel free to pile on. I’m happy to discuss how to maintain tech superiority in America as long as it doesn’t turn into a witch-hunt against immigrants. It’s far easier to fan fears than to calm them, this should be reflected in how we communicate.
  - threatofrain 8y ago
    Speaking argumentatively, I’d assert the audience controls your meaning more than you do; after all, meaning in communication is a negotiation between more than one powers. I think of a famous author angrily leaving a guest lecture when students don’t agree with the interpretation, or like with JK Rowling adding interpretation behind her characters after the Harry Potter books.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      Yea I agree. You’re talking about meaning, which i assume to mean “what each person derives from your words”. And like I said above, I would define intent as “what meaning the author wishes for people to imbue”, if you want to get crisp.
frozenport 8y ago
Yeah, they offered to do the work for cheaper

throwawaybeijjj 8y ago

Companies have been moving both R&D and manufacturing out of China; more companies need to do the same, and faster. Then that's one less channel China can use to steal technologies. - Sony closing smartphone plant in China, moving production to Thailand https://www.gizmochina.com/2019/03/28/sony-closing-smartphone-plant-in-china-moving-production-to-thailand/ https://www.gizmochina.com/2019/03/28/sony-closing-smartphon... - Samsung Downsizes China Operations With Factory Closure https://www.wsj.com/articles/samsung-downsizes-china-operations-with-factory-closure-11544683980 https://www.wsj.com/articles/samsung-downsizes-china-operati... - Taiwan server makers under pressure to speed up move-out from China https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20181008PD212.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20181008PD212.html - Foxconn moves manufacturing out of China https://www.freightwaves.com/news/economics/foxconn-moves-out-of-china https://www.freightwaves.com/news/economics/foxconn-moves-ou... - GoPro is moving camera production out of China, citing tariff worries https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/10/gopro-is-moving-camera-production-out-of-china-over-tariff-concerns.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/10/gopro-is-moving-camera-produ... - Ricoh shifts production out of China https://www.therecycler.com/posts/ricoh-shifts-production-out-of-china/ https://www.therecycler.com/posts/ricoh-shifts-production-ou... - Amazon will no longer sell Chinese goods in China https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/tech/amazon-closes-china/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/tech/amazon-closes-china/inde...

fireattack 8y ago
I agree with you but that Amazon one is not really the same thing. And "stop selling China goods" is a very weird way to word it, even though it's technically correct. what they're doing is essentially closing their China branch due to low market share, but keep the "imported goods" portion because they still have some edge on that regard due to Amazon's global presence.

odiroot 8y ago

Oh yes, we need more Red Scare.