10 ms·
Chinese spies stole trade secrets from Dutch chip machine maker ASML: report
- ycombonator 8y agoIt’s too late for western companies to stop the leakage. The Chinese regime planted their “spies” everywhere in academia & industry through multi-decade onslaught. The companies and governments just kept looking the other way and the chickens are coming home to roost.
- wrong_variable 8y agoNice to bundle all Chinese people. Most of this "spies" are trying to escape China ! all the regime did was offer them more money / opportunity than what they went to the West to find. China could have achieved it through "turing" normal white citizens too / but I guess they are the real patriots ? Mark Zukerburg learnt mandarin for god's sake. Its a game among capitalists and most of us regardless of nationality will switch sides to whoever gives the most value.
- zarkov99 8y agoSpeak for yourself there. Not everyone is driven by money above all things.
- chrobic72j7 8y ago> Speak for yourself there. Not everyone is driven by money above all things. Considering most people spend 8+ hours a day working for money, I'd say yes, everyone is driven by money above all things. Just look at the millineals, I mean, excuse me, new college grads. They shit talk Facebook's ethics, but the moment they receive a $100,000 job offer from Facebook, their ethics go out the window and they accept the offer from this "shady-ass" company.
- keiferski 8y agoFacebook employs about 35,000 people. The millennial generation includes about 71,000,000 people. How the former can be used by you to represent the views of the later is a mystery to me.
- wavefunction 8y agoI don't consider Mark Zuckerberg a model except for what not to do. I'd learn Mandarin because I want to communicate with Mandarin speakers.
- rarecoil 8y ago> Most of this "spies" are trying to escape China ! all the regime did was offer them more money / opportunity than what they went to the West to find. Your second sentence directly contradicts the first. The "spies" aren't escaping China - they're playing whatever side has more money to throw at them.
- princeofwands 8y agoIt is not about money. It is about people with family in China. This is the most common pressure point that turns them. Then they have to recruit other Chinese people abroad. Anyway, like said elsewhere, spying only gets them so far. As a gross generalization: The Chinese lack the creativity and originality to further develop the stolen technology. Somehow, this seems more of a Western skill set. I suppose, because creativity and disruption takes a modicum of rebellion against the rules / authorities, and so you can't have both 996 obedience and creativity.
- steve19 8y agoI think the West could if it wanted to do so, but the West (a collection of States and companies) is not a centrally controlled entity like China (one state, which has more or less absolute control on how organizations within the state operate). Western companies do not care about losing IP. They say they care but they don't really. It is just a cost of doing business. They know they are losing IP, but they are going for short term profit (either from the Chinese market or from cheaper manufacturing in China). When the chickens come home to roost the CEO will have been paid big bonuses and ready to move on. If the CEO did not save costs or expand into China, shareholders would have revolted and replaced the CEO anyway. The West (USA + Canada, EU + UK, Australia) could circle the wagons, form a trading bloc, essentially negotiate with China as a single entity and start a trade war if China did not bend. But even if they wanted to do so, the cost would be high in the short term and voters would punish them. What might stop China is if another large country such as India, Indonesia or Nigeria decided to position themselves as the ethical alternative: cheap labor and manufacturing without the rampant state sponsored IP theft.
- sacheendra 8y agoHow is cheap labour where people commit suicide ethical in any way? One of the reasons Chinese companies can manufacture so cheaply is the possibility of IP theft. The west want to pay their poor less to manufacture things cheaply. The Chinese want to pay the western rich less to use their technology. Calling IP theft unethical in a sentence with cheap labour is oxymoronic.
- chillacy 8y agoWasn't Foxconn's suicide rate in line with the nation's averages?
- pcr0 8y agoIt was less than the national average, 14/million vs 22/million [0]. Nonetheless, they did have a problem with illegal overtime, abusive management, a lack of breaks and discrimination [1]. A lot has changed since then due to pressure from both Apple and the Chinese government. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-chinese-suicides-and-the-amazing-economics-of-ha-joon-chang/#2a9e7ef236a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/10/apples-c... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Reports
- chillacy 8y agoIf you’re insinuating that every immigrant from China is a “spy” then a significant chunk of our tech infrastructure is built by these spies in the first place.
- karterk 8y agoRead again, that's not what the OP is insinuating. In any case, this is a serious issue that deserves a serious discussion without getting angry.
- chillacy 8y agoI don’t think you can lay claim what OP is intending to say unless you’re OP. The best either of us can do is share our interpretation, and others can feel free to pile on. I’m happy to discuss how to maintain tech superiority in America as long as it doesn’t turn into a witch-hunt against immigrants. It’s far easier to fan fears than to calm them, this should be reflected in how we communicate.
- threatofrain 8y agoSpeaking argumentatively, I’d assert the audience controls your meaning more than you do; after all, meaning in communication is a negotiation between more than one powers. I think of a famous author angrily leaving a guest lecture when students don’t agree with the interpretation, or like with JK Rowling adding interpretation behind her characters after the Harry Potter books.
- chillacy 8y agoYea I agree. You’re talking about meaning, which i assume to mean “what each person derives from your words”. And like I said above, I would define intent as “what meaning the author wishes for people to imbue”, if you want to get crisp.
- frozenport 8y agoYeah, they offered to do the work for cheaper
- throwawaybeijjj 8y agoCompanies have been moving both R&D and manufacturing out of China; more companies need to do the same, and faster. Then that's one less channel China can use to steal technologies. - Sony closing smartphone plant in China, moving production to Thailand https://www.gizmochina.com/2019/03/28/sony-closing-smartphone-plant-in-china-moving-production-to-thailand/ https://www.gizmochina.com/2019/03/28/sony-closing-smartphon... - Samsung Downsizes China Operations With Factory Closure https://www.wsj.com/articles/samsung-downsizes-china-operations-with-factory-closure-11544683980 https://www.wsj.com/articles/samsung-downsizes-china-operati... - Taiwan server makers under pressure to speed up move-out from China https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20181008PD212.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20181008PD212.html - Foxconn moves manufacturing out of China https://www.freightwaves.com/news/economics/foxconn-moves-out-of-china https://www.freightwaves.com/news/economics/foxconn-moves-ou... - GoPro is moving camera production out of China, citing tariff worries https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/10/gopro-is-moving-camera-production-out-of-china-over-tariff-concerns.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/10/gopro-is-moving-camera-produ... - Ricoh shifts production out of China https://www.therecycler.com/posts/ricoh-shifts-production-out-of-china/ https://www.therecycler.com/posts/ricoh-shifts-production-ou... - Amazon will no longer sell Chinese goods in China https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/tech/amazon-closes-china/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/tech/amazon-closes-china/inde...
- fireattack 8y agoI agree with you but that Amazon one is not really the same thing. And "stop selling China goods" is a very weird way to word it, even though it's technically correct. what they're doing is essentially closing their China branch due to low market share, but keep the "imported goods" portion because they still have some edge on that regard due to Amazon's global presence.
- odiroot 8y agoOh yes, we need more Red Scare.
- raziel2701 8y agoIs the semiconductor industry particularly vulnerable to China for some reason? I am obviously in a news bubble but it looks like it's always the silicon technology companies that have these issues.
- foobiekr 8y agoYou should consider that semiconductors make it more obvious than, say, software IP theft.
- wrong_variable 8y agoChina looks at things that US / EU have a monopoly in.
- notable_user 8y agoNot just Silicon Valley, Boeing has had similar problems. I imagine every industry with manufacturing has been affected.
- sephamorr 8y agoThere's probably plenty of bias, but a large part of the China2025 plan is to achieve dominance in semiconductors. Since the domestic chip industry needs to catch up and the intelligence services are not above IP theft, this isn't surprising to me.
- metildaa 8y agoBy 2025 they might figure out newer processes than 14nm, but even Intel and Global Foundries has hit a wall at 14nm. Samsung, TSMC and IBM are the only companies with productive sub-14nm fabs.
- ip26 8y agoWhich is a fascinating lever from a global politics point of view. People theorize that the US might not come to Taiwan's aid, but how could we not? That fab seems too important a chess piece to surrender willingly.
- Proven 8y agoGood job! ASML initially said it wasn't the commies. Outstanding security experts!
- metildaa 8y agoThe problem with chip IP theft is the theif only has the IP they stole, not the skill to further develop or extend it (usually). The Qualcomm => Intel IP Theft that Apple facilitated is a great example, or AMD's licensing of the first gen Zen architecture to a Chinese owned company. Intel wasn't able to get their chipset working well despite a treasure trove of Qualcomm code and documents, even with the ability to question Qualcomm engineers via Apple. Meanwhile, Hygon (the AMD/China joint venture) has produced the Dhyana, virtually identical to AMD's EPYC chips of a year prior. The limiting factor for Hygon fulfiling its goals (home grown, performant cores) faces many challenges, as AMD is moving to 7nm at TSMC, while the bleeding edge at Chinese fabs (and nearly all other fabs) is 14nm. Even Intel hasn't been able to jump above 14nm and make a sizeable number of chips. Even if Hygon were to steal AMD's newer design, they have no native fabs to manufacture it, and they likely won't for another few years. Permanent industry laggard puts you in the same position as VIA, never making good profit or breaking ahead of competitors.
- ajross 8y agoThis isn't logic design. ASML makes photolithography equipment used in semiconductor manufacture. The head line is confusing, but it reads "Dutch chip machine maker"
- Teknoman117 8y agodutch chip maker maker
- rasz 8y agoAMD/China joint venture is pure financial engineering to bypass tariffs. Think Bombardier/Airbus one to skirt Boeing plotting.
- pmorici 8y agoHistory repeats itself... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater
- black_13 8y agoHire local poeople and treat them as if you need them.
- torqueTorrent 8y ago>> Hire local poeople and treat them as if you need them. Wow! What a concept! alas, that'll never work.
- 11thEarlOfMar 8y agoASML is not a chip company. They are a chip equipment company. The machine they have designed is a wonder of science and engineering. It is also the only model by any company that is capable of printing the chip layers at state of the art nanoscale. Every high value chip produced in the world has its lithography steps in ASML tools.
- smartbit 8y agoASML CEO Peter Wennink strongly denies that the Chinese government is behind the theft of sensitive business information. according to https://nos.nl/l/2279983 https://nos.nl/l/2279983 (translate https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnos.nl%2Fl%2F2279983 https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3... )
- brobdingnagians 8y agoIf he said otherwise, would the Chinese government sanction him?
- Rapzid 8y agoI also fail to see the difference between Chinese corporate interests and Chinese government interests. Doesn't the government have its hands in all this stuff?
- Confiks 8y agoThe CEO of ASML commented on this story in Nieuwsuur last Tuesday [1] (the interview starts at 22m35s). Caption file can be found here [2], which is not entirely correct in every sentence uttered, but translates pretty well. Main points raised there: 1) This story is about four employees, who were not closely familiar to the core technology of ASML. 2) Looking at the circumstances, it seems far more likely that this was an action by ex-exployees with commercial motives, rather than government-sponsored spying. 3) ASMLs core technology simply remains in The Netherlands. An anecdote: 15 years ago ASML came with the most advanced lithography scanner of that time. It was copied in China to the last screw, but the device simply didn't work, because they lacked intricate knowledge on its actual operation. [1] https://www.npostart.nl/nieuwsuur/16-04-2019/VPWON_1297076 https://www.npostart.nl/nieuwsuur/16-04-2019/VPWON_1297076 [2] https://pastebin.com/Zg55qtYK https://pastebin.com/Zg55qtYK
- TaylorAlexander 8y agoThis mirrors how open source hardware manufacturers can do a great job even with knock offs on the market. The Prusa 3D printer is open source, but all the clones are cheaper and lower quality. The expertise that goes in to building the Prusa is what makes them worth their higher price.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago> Looking at the circumstances, it seems far more likely that this was an action by ex-exployees with commercial motives, rather than government-sponsored spying Not sure, but wasn't China their biggest client? And they didn't want to offend them, I think. I remember reading about it vaguely?
- Confiks 8y agoAs an addendum: The subtitles are really not to be relied upon for what he actually said. I regret pasting them. They were probably typed up on the spot and leave out the majority of the content. Also, for example, he said "[people talk about] senior R&D employees", but it is subtitled as "a wave of employees". The three points above are accurate however.
- gxwmg 8y ago
- ummonk 8y agoI would argue that developing countries have a moral obligation to obtain whatever intellectual property is necessary to develop their economies.
- jstewartmobile 8y agoEvery cybersecurity guy I've ever met has at least one or two Chinese espionage stories--all ending with a bunch of C-level guys pleading to keep it out of the news, while being utterly unconcerned that company IP and sensitive customer information have left the building. It could just be a case of pass-the-message, but the C-level guys often seemed so unconcerned that you'd have to wonder if they were also in on it. After all, the Chinese do have money, and everyone likes money.
- whoevercares 8y agoThat’s what happens when the Chinese is your biggest customer(directly or indirectly)
- throwaway193855 8y agoI know it's racist, but I've gotten to the point where I treat any citizen or first-generation immigrant of Russia or China as a state actor and treat them accordingly. They have the power to make changes in their government and/or government's policy, so I hold them accountable as a private citizen. This is the standard I am held to as an immigrant to the United States from a Middle Eastern nation anyway, so it doesn't feel hypocritical.
- diNgUrAndI 8y agoWhy would you repeat what bad things happened to you on others? This is sadism, if not just racism. Seek help.
- cyranodb 8y agonltimes.nl is a very dodgy news site. It's probably a part of a propaganda chain including brusselstimes.be and a lot of others. Check the locations the servers are at. And check registrations. The lack of a proper colofon should also tell you something.