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Major U.S. cancer center ousts ‘Asian’ researchers after NIH flags foreign ties
- yumraj 7y agoI wonder why the headline says 'Asian' instead of saying Chinese, since all three researchers were Chinese with ties to China. As an ethic Indian, I'm kinda offended when all Asians are just lumped together as I believe it promotes general racism and bias against anyone from that continent.
- lainga 7y agoMD Anderson President Peter Pisters says all [five] are “Asian”; Science has confirmed that three are ethnically Chinese.
- ABeeSea 7y agoIt’s a direct quote from a statement provided by the institution. Not a choice the reporter made, but they mention that they confirmed most are ethnically Chinese.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoIn the US, Asian = people from eastern Asia. In the UK, Asian = people from southern Asia.
- vinay427 7y agoSure, but even if we continue to abide by this inconsistent terminology, "eastern Asia" is not the same thing as China, so the OP's point still seems relevant.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoI'm not endorsing the use of the terminology, nor do I use it, but that has been my experience with others who use it in the US and UK. I know the US Census lumps Indians and Chinese together in one as Asian, but colloquially, I never hear anyone in the US refer to Indians as Asians.
- EliRivers 7y agoSpeaking as someone from the UK, when I say "Asian" I mean East Asian, and when I mean someone from South Asia, I name the specific nationality. For example, I generally wouldn't refer to someone from India as "Asian".
- toasterlovin 7y agoFWIW, all the UK coverage of the grooming gang scandals refers to the perpetrators as Asian (they are mostly South Asian, and definitely not East Asian).
- golemiprague 7y agoAnd mostly Muslims, but mentioning it is "islamophobia"
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- talloaktrees 7y ago> Cancer center officials have not named any of the five researchers. MD Anderson President Peter Pisters says all are “Asian”; I believe because that's the official statement.
- aiyodev 7y agoYour mystery can be solved by reading to the third paragraph. > Cancer center officials have not named any of the five researchers. MD Anderson President Peter Pisters says all are “Asian”; Science has confirmed that three are ethnically Chinese.
- codegeek 7y agoFunny you say that because in the US, Indians are not considered Asians in practice even though of course South Asia is, well in Asia. I have seen many people argue that Asians only mean East Asians and does not include South Asians. However, the official census lumps all Asians together.
- danso 7y agoHow are Indians not considered “Asians in practice” when they are considered as such by the Census, the authoritative organization that sets the categorization standard?
- robbintt 7y agoIts just the view the English language has consensed on at the ground level. It's not decided intentionally.
- RankingMember 7y agoIn my experience living in the U.S. at least, if someone is referring to someone of Indian origin, they call them Indian, whereas if someone is referring to someone of Korean/Japanese/Chinese origin, they'll call them Asian (unless they know their particular country of origin).
- toasterlovin 7y agoI would expand the Asian designation to include southeast Asians as well (Vietnam, Philippines, Cambodia, Thailand, etc). Though maybe that’s just a west coast thing.
- beaner 7y agoBecause laypeople don't think of those things. The divide in the way people look, the environment of their countries, how they sound, and what they believe, is split in Asia by the Himalayas. Obviously there are many differences between the countries but it's easy to see why conceptually some might group some of them together into 2 large regions. Also Indians in America don't generally refer to themselves as Asians when speaking, so if their goal is to be perceived as Asian, they are not helping themselves.
- president 7y agoSo you're fine as long as racism is only directed towards races other than your own?
- robbintt 7y agoChinese is a nationality or citizenship status. If the focus were reporting han chinese then it would enter the territory of racism.
- crunchiebones 7y agoit obviously depends on the context, but China is homogeneous enough that 'chinese' is often used to mean more than just nationality
- hpkuarg 7y agoConsidering China to be a homogeneous entity in any dimension is borne of ignorance. Linguistically, the four largest cities in China (Guangzhou, Shanghai, Chongqing, Beijing) speak "dialects" that range from barely mutually intelligible to not at all. Politically, the region has had a long history of provinces disregarding central rule, rivalry between major power centers, etc. Cultural boundaries have been somewhat muddied in the modern era, but one should not assume that the united front that the CCP presents to the outside world is reflective of internal unity. Sure, the Han make up 90%+ of the population (and in that sense you could call China homogeneous), but I struggle to say that Han == Han when it comes to the overwhelming diversity of the country.
- chungleong 7y agoThe only meaningful distinction is between mainland Chinese vs Hong Kongers/Taiwanese/Chinese Diaspora. There's no ignoring the damage done by the Cultural Revolution. The old honor code that used to govern social relations just isn't there anymore. Mainland China is a complete wild west where anything goes. Cheating. Stealing. Stabbing friends in the back.
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- i_am_proteus 7y agoThe United States Government has official racial categories for individuals, of which "Asian" is one. Employers and academic institutions are required by law to categorize employees/researchers/students into these racial categories.
- agumonkey 7y agobecause india is not in asia, it's in india Weird jokes aside, I cannot not think asia = china,japan,tibet,koreas,vietnam,laos,thailand .. In my brain, the rest is ~elsewhere
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- _bxg1 7y agoAgreed. There's no reason to distrust "Asian researchers"; there's reason to distrust "researchers with ties to China in the political climate of 2019".
- yding 7y agoReason=racism?
- ucaetano 7y agoBecause that's how the five were described: Cancer center officials have not named any of the five researchers. MD Anderson President Peter Pisters says all are “Asian”; Science has confirmed that three are ethnically Chinese. Also, race, geographic origin and ethnicity are complicated. "Asian" is as vague in describing the people from Asia as "white" or "European" or "caucasian" are vague in describing those from Europe & Western Asia. You'd be better with Germanics, Baltic, Persian/Iranian, Kurds, Turks, Slavs (and the multiple breakdowns), Uralic, Latin/Roman, Hispanic (nothing to do with the US 'latino/hispanic'), European Jews (and the different breakdowns) and so on. Which also brings into play the fact that in Europe the concept of a Nation-State (essentially, a country which is dominated by a people) has been slowly disappearing over the past few centuries (but not entirely), while in Asia IMHO it still seems to be the rule.
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- Razengan 7y agoYes, “Asian” as used by most Westerners† is the current socially-palatable “Oriental” or “Mongoloid”, but it’s no less lazy, ignorant, annoying and even racist. Imagine calling Canadians and Mexicans “American” because of the continent. † If you’re annoyed by being lumped under “Westerner” you might be able to relate.
- billfruit 7y agoI think it is an Americansim, the British do not generally use "Asian" with that specific connotation.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago> Imagine calling Canadians and Mexicans “American” because of the continent. I've seen "North American" used like that pretty often, actually. > If you’re annoyed by being lumped under “Westerner” you might be able to relate. I'm not. Should I be? It makes sense. I agree that "Asian" doesn't make sense in the way the West tends to use it. "East Asian" is somewhat better, though still not 100% geographically accurate. But then "Westerner" isn't really accurate either; it's just the best commonly-accepted term for a useful concept.
- toasterlovin 7y agoIs your position really that it’s unacceptable to refer to some subset of people who trace their recent ancestry to Asia as Asians? Do you think it’s unacceptable to refer to people of recent European ancestry as Europeans?
- int_19h 7y agoWhat if I preferentially self-identify as "Westerner"?
- calvinbhai 7y agoTotally agree. As it is, Indian diversity is already lumped together into one nation. No one says European cuisine, European language, European culture etc when referring to something specific. As a person from India, who lived more than a decade in the USA, I took quite some time to realize the following: - We are not Asians even though India is in Asia. Asians are those who have the "oriental facial features". - We are not Indians, because generally native Americans are referred to as Indians, and I realized only later that if I mention "native Americans" when someone refers to them as Indians, can be a little incorrect (politically) based on who says that. - We are all "South Asians" when a terror attack occurs in developed countries (especially European counties). - When there's something specifically negative pointed out about India, then it's clearly "Indians" and "India" (this point is limited to celebs and US/Eu media, not the general population that I have come across). people if USA are used to be called Americans and not "USAians". I guess it's the same attitude towards other countries that leads to such usage of terms.
- IdontRememberIt 7y agoI remember when I was young (+40 years ago), many Swiss private banks would only hire Swiss people. That rule was due to the French IRS equivalent having their own employees sent to Switzerland and hired by Swiss bank. They were mole transmitting confidential information about French clients. So these private banks had to restore trust and security. Honestly still today, for some critial jobs, I do not understand companies not hiring local people (whatever nationality) with their friends and whole family (parents, cousins, etc) in the country. The cost of treason is higher (if they need to escape the country). It is not bullet proof, but it mitigates the risk. But it looks like banks have a short memory (This guy was a sysadmin): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_Falciani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_Falciani
- sneak 7y agoIt is racist to assume that someone’s place of birth determines their allegiances.
- greggyb 7y agoNo it's not. Some form of prejudice, certainly, but not racism.
- peteradio 7y agoThats a pretty inclusive view on what racism is.
- Dig1t 7y agoIn 2019, anything mildly differing from one's own opinion can be said to be racist.
- IdontRememberIt 7y agoToday, most of the people do not accept to be "offended" by hearing/reading a different opinion. It is so sad... A healthy Socratic debate between people of opposite views is today almost impossible.
- okasaki 7y ago>Four of the five NIH letters to MD Anderson contain very specific allegations of what NIH terms “serious” rule violations. One letter, for instance, asserts that a researcher had violated peer-review confidentiality by emailing to a scientist in China an NIH grant application marked as containing “proprietary/privileged information.” A different letter alleges that a researcher had shared “detailed information on as many as 8 NIH applications” with a daughter. NIH asserts several researchers had “active and well-supported research programs in China,” or financial ties to foreign firms, that they did not disclose. Three of the letters specifically mention a researcher’s potential involvement in China’s Thousand Talents Program, an effort started in 2008 to establish ties with Chinese or Chinese American scientists working outside of China by offering funding, salary, and other research support. This sounds like really boring stuff that the scientists may not even have known that they weren't allowed to do.
- michaelhoffman 7y agoIf you are a funding peer reviewer you know you are not allowed to send grant applications to anyone unauthorized. It's not boring; a big deal is made out of this repeatedly and it is a serious lapse. Of course this is something that is rarely punished because in most cases there's no way for the authorities to know. Too bad for these folks that they seemed to be under investigation.
- duxup 7y agoIt sounds like they have pretty clear rules that you're not allowed to do that.
- mturmon 7y agoFor a peer reviewer of a proposal to send it to anyone else is both unethical and against the basic black-letter rules. Anyone doing peer reviews of proposals will be asked to ensure confidentiality of proposals under review. (https://grants.nih.gov/policy/research_integrity/confidentiality_peer_review.htm https://grants.nih.gov/policy/research_integrity/confidentia...) The level of paranoia around proposals is much higher than, say, peer reviews for conferences or journal papers, where sometimes a paper might be given to a grad student to take a look at.
- ConfusedDog 7y agoWhy not look into other ethinic's ties with foreign nations that taking advantage of US funded research? Probably because they are not considered to be threats, and sharing common good research results is not necessarily a bad thing. (Military tech is different story.) The fact is US is considering China as a threat under Trump's throne, so researchers with Chinese heritage is under much higher scrutiny than other races is the racism happening right now. It is a much more subtle and dangerous form of Racism, reminded me War World II Japanese-Americans. What's happening in this article is just a symptom.
- astazangasta 7y agoSpecifically, white people have been stealing research and claiming it as theirs for decades. We give them Nobel prizes when they do it really well.
- crowdpleaser 7y agoIt's so weird how US mass media refuses to name/identify some offenders but identifies some offenders by their identities. If some black youth engage in gunplay the headlines read "5 Chicagoans gunned down", if some Chinese scam an Apple store it's "Oregon Students defraud apple store", if a Somali joins ISIS the story goes to press as "Minneapolis Man joins ISIS" or "Another person from Rep. Omar's district joins ISIS".
- ucaetano 7y ago> It's so weird how US mass media refuses to name/identify some offenders but identifies some offenders by their identities. That's not the case here. The identity of the offenders was not disclosed: "Cancer center officials have not named any of the five researchers. MD Anderson President Peter Pisters says all are “Asian”; Science has confirmed that three are ethnically Chinese."
- Dirlewanger 7y agoWelcome to 24-hour profit-driven journalism, you won't enjoy your stay...
- spookybones 7y agoBut, how local should we get with descriptors? If the issue is about corporate espionage, then the culprit's nationality might be very relevant. However, I'm not sure focusing on ethnicity adds much in your first example. As a counterpoint, when someone ODs in West Virginia, should we report: white, middle-aged person dies of overdose? Another example: white male CEO commits fraud.
- crowdpleaser 7y agoI think any level of descriptiveness is fine as long as it's consistent. If a Chinese thief is an "Oregon Student" then I want a Chinese surgeon who saves lives to be an "Oregon surgeon".
- tibbydudeza 7y agoWell considering this is the same country who interned 110,000 Americans of Japanese descent all due to hysteria.
- DamnYuppie 7y agoStop acting like something that happened nearly 80 years ago is relevant today. Did we go crazy and lock up every Muslim after 9-11? That was a different time, a great deal of progress has been made since then. Sometimes I think too much progress as we are unwilling to be tough against those who seek to do us harm.
- jonnybgood 7y ago> Sometimes I think too much progress as we are unwilling to be tough against those who seek to do us harm. We invaded a whole country (Afghanistan), sent many to places like Guantanamo Bay, and bombed them throughout Africa and the Middle East. What more do you want?
- int_19h 7y agoThe problem is that the same people who sold the 9/11 surveillance state were (and still are) making the argument that Japanese-American interment was justified, and would be justified again in the same circumstances. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Defense_of_Internment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Defense_of_Internment There was also some rhetoric explicitly referencing interment (in a positive way) during the 2016 presidential campaign. And to remind, the Korematsu decision - which, essentially, made it all legal - wasn't overturned until last year, either. So it's not exactly ancient history.
- thereare5lights 7y agoYea it's not like it had any long last effects such as the lost of valuable property and wealth that was stolen after they were forced from their homes or the lost of opportunity due to stolen years. No that doesn't matter anymore even though the people that lived through it are still alive. No that doesn't matter despite people in politics literally raising the specter of doing it again and in some cases, directly suggesting and defending it as a future potential action. We're totally reaching when we bring it again.
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- delfinom 7y ago>The new developments are linked to a sweeping effort launched last year by NIH to address growing U.S. government fears that foreign nations, particularly China, are taking unfair advantage of federally funded research. Instead we let big pharma do it and charge a massive markup to fund their yachts eh?
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