7 ms·

Could anyone shed some light on which problem this is supposed to solve exactly and what triggered it in the first place in Austria right now? Have there been

Could anyone shed some light on which problem this is supposed to solve exactly and what triggered it in the first place in Austria right now? Have there been any issues caused by anonymous posts recently? Maybe I'm just living under a rock, but my feeling was that the main issues we're currently facing stem from political distortion caused by populism misusing platform mechanisms to spread misinformation. I don't see how this is supposed to help.

free101 8y ago
Traditional parties center/left center/right in Europe have run their respective countries into the ground. Now they think that censoring information will save them so they can get back to the cozy system where state television is the source of truth. Also, of course it is always good for a politician to show some sort of activity, no matter how silly.
- arrrg 8y ago
  Describing the current government in Austria as center-right is a bit ridiculous (to say nothing of putting words like centrist or left anywhere near descriptions of that government). Austrian politics have been moving further and further to the right and the FPÖ (junior coalition partner) is a xenophobic far-right party with authoritarian streaks. I’m really not comfortable in describing a government where such a party participates as center-right.
  - tracked_citizen 8y ago
    Censoring the internet is a popular topic among all center parties in Europe. For example "Hate-speech" censorship, where the end justifies the means, is popular among many left leaning parties. Isn't the proposal from an ÖVP minister? Does the ÖVP not qualify as center-right?
    - the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
      OeVP in the current incarnation is not in the center any more. Definitely right wing.
      - readittwice 8y ago
        No, that's just your opinion. The OVP is center-right, the FPO is right wing/populistic.
        the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
        The OeVP current platform is to curb rights of immigrants, to reduce social support systems, lowers corporate tax rates, introduces laws to restrict social housing to non immigrants, reduces child support payments for children in other EU countries, continues the policy on border controls in Schengen, restricts skilled immigration, sets a maximum limit of 1.5 euro per hour income for asylum seekers when doing social service. What did this party do that’s center? The policies that OeVP introduces and advocates are more restrictive and conservative than the FPOe did under Haider.
        gxwmg 8y ago
        But do the ÖVP actually do that? I'm Spanish and I voted for a "conservative" government this last election, where they promised to do, well, stuff I expected from a conservative party, and they didn't do shit. That's why I call them "centrist". They say they are conservatives, but they don't conserve anything.
        the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
        I only enumerated things they put into law out they proposed or supported from the start. The things the FPOe did was getting rid of the smoking ban, raising the speed limits to 140, renaming the immigration centers to “departure centers”, proposals to cut the funding of the public broadcaster. Together they converted the country in record time into a dystopian place. Even putting childhood education back into former times by reintroducing marks for primary schoolers and minimum requirements that can cause children under 10 to have to repeat a class. They are now both also starting to talk about rolling back abortion rights.
  - gxwmg 8y ago
    I think the wrong words were chosen by the parent. For many decades politics in Europe were dominated by traditional globalist governments, which I would describe as "centrist". For many people those governments are failing and voters are moving to the left and the right, depending on the country of course. Centrist governments are trying to use "hate speech" laws as a way of curbing their loss of control of the media; before they could control the newspapers and the telly and therefore they could control dialogue, now with social networks that's not that easy. We are seeing that with some stories, such as rapes in Sweden and all of that. They could simply tell their friends in TV networks not to talk about it. Problem solved. That doesn't work anymore. So they need the law. In Germany and Austria for example you need to put your real name and address in a visible part of your website known as the Impressum. What's a better way to make sure you keep your opinions under control and your head low?
    - peletiah 8y ago
      As others have pointed out, the austrian government is populist right/far-right. This is not a law by centrist parties, but by right-wing authoritarian.
    - tremon 8y ago
      those governments are failing and voters are moving to the left and the right, depending on the country of course. I think it's pretty universal across Europe that people are moving more to the extremes. But that doesn't make the original parties suddenly "centrist" -- they're just status-quo, "old school". Centrist governments are trying to use "hate speech" laws as a way of curbing their loss of control of the media I'm sorry, but this just sounds like populist propaganda. There hasn't been government control of the media like you suggest; instead, the media used to be civil. The current "popular" channels do away with civility, and any voice critical of that tone is immediately discarded by playing the victim, like you are doing here. The establishment, still representing the civil masses, is perfectly within scope to try and curb uncivility. Whether their methods are effective is up for debate, but the goal isn't -- we all know what happened last time Europe went uncivil (80 million premature deaths).
      - 8y ago
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    correct the FPÖ is in fact the continuation of the Nazi government and was founded by former Nazis (VDU)[1]. The FPÖ used to be mostly a problem of in Carinthia, where the party was infamous for it's beerfests crawling with skinheads. You might love the place as a tourist, but if you're an immigrant (even born there) and especially Turkish/Muslim (or simply have a different accent), then living in Austria is no fun. [1] (in German sorry): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiheitliche_Partei_%C3%96sterreichs#Vorg%C3%A4ngerpartei_VdU https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiheitliche_Partei_%C3%96ste...
  - redshiftingstar 8y ago
    Not surprised by the political shift, I have lived there for few years and felt really discriminated. Few people actually stopped talking to me after they learn where I'm from(Turkey). It's bit out of context but I will heavily advise against moving there for non-European immigrants, don't make the same mistake that I did.
    - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
      I feel for you. The Turkish community has a real hard time in Austria, much more so than Germany. I'm ashamed to say that many people from my childhood, today consider themselves liberals but in their rethoric are nothing more than the descendants of Nazis. The first thing I did when being old enough was to GTFO of Austria, and I haven't been back other than on vacation. I have a couple of Turkish friends in Germany who feel quite comfortable and at home there. From those I met in Austria they were by far not as cheerful. There is a lot of talk about "integration" which is basically a way to say: don't speak your language, don't eat your food, and don't visit your mosques because it offends us. Every attempt of me making friends among Turks in Austria has always been met with suspicion since they aren't used to it. Extremely sad and disgusting. I guess the problem is that people view Austria as some kind of liberal "Western" country, while geographically it is part of Eastern Europe and ideologically they are closer to those cheering for Victor Orban in Hungary. If you want to deeply offend (most) Austrians call them Eastern Europeans. They think they're better.
szbalint 8y ago
This comes from a government in which the junior coalition partner is the far-right FPÖ, an openly pro-Putin and authoritarian party. This law is part of their campaign to browbeat the press and public sphere into submission and it is following attempts to rein the austrian public broadcaster (orf) in. The proposed law is useless for any legitimate purpose, as anonymity was never a problem with hate speech or other things. People are willing to engage in hate speech, libel or just in overall awful things with their name attached without reservation already.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  Putin even attended the wedding of Austrian foreign minister last year[1] and nobody was outraged, in fact Austrians on social media applauded it. Vienna is also crawling with Russian spooks. The problem in Austria is that the Russians have started buying a lot of property there decades ago. Property prices in Kitzbühel have been going through the roof thanks to Russian oligarchs buying up everything. Russians love Austria (as much as Cyprus) because it's a great place to hide and launder money, see[2]: Peter Pilz, a member of parliament from the opposition Greens party, said the Italian mafia, especially the Calabria-based ‘Ndrangheta, had years ago used Austria as a money-laundering centre, cleansing around 2 billion euros. “Now it is mainly a matter of Russian money. A lot of banks must be afraid that the Russians will take their millions and flee to Asia,” he said. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-karin-kneissl-wedding-austria-today-2018-08-18/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-karin-kneissl-we... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-banksecrecy-austria-idUSBRE93B0C620130412 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-banksecrecy-austria-id... see also: How Russia stands to profit from Austria’s new government: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/how-russia-stands-to-profit-from-austrias-new-government/ https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/how-russia-stands-to-p... edit: parent is getting silently downvoted for stating facts. welcome to HN.
- cxy1211 8y ago
  I wonder why people think that Putin controls all right wing parties on this planet (including Trump). No one talks about Gazprom Schroeder (center-left SPD) who destroyed the welfare state in Germany and then joined Gazprom.
the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
I doubt it solves any problems. The right wing parties just want to have more leverage for message control. A platform under the proposed law has to share the identity of an individual if another party wants to sue them for libel as an example. A think the FPOe does regularly.
GordonS 8y ago
If Austria is anything like the UK, I imagine it's a move designed largely to garner votes from a particular segment of the population who have been led to believe there's a terrorist round every corner, and "it's all to keep them safe".
lazyjones 8y ago
> Could anyone shed some light on which problem this is supposed to solve exactly and what triggered it in the first place in Austria right now? Existing hate-speech legislation allows persecution of users already, but in some cases the offenders hide too well or Facebook does not cooperate with authorities. Online newspaper forums are also now full of professionally organized dirt campaigns, sometimes tolerated by left-leaning media. The government wants to be able to persecute those who break the law and thinks it's the responsibility of media to at least make their users identifiable for authorities.
- masswerk 8y ago
  Since this is intended for international audiences, it maybe worth stating that "left-leaning" is what was considered center just a few years ago. (The idea of a general consent is somewhat a thing of a past.) Particularly "Der Standard", the newspaper the post is linking to, is now often attributed as "left" and its forum, the biggest and oldest one in Austria is subject to diffamation. (If you're reading the comments in this forum, there's a feeling that the law is meant to implement a premature censorship of sorts, an idea which is also maintained by some law and media professionals.) – While this is nothing like the US divide, there's no such thing like a common (political) perspective in Austria anymore. As a result, even comments meant to remind of the constitution and rule of law are sometimes countered by a qualification as left wing hate speech. Edit: Previously, the political center of Austria was slightly to the left, like in most European countries. Bored with the great center coalition, the conservative party (ÖVP) has burned all bridges to the center-left social democrats (SPÖ) and is now considering the center rather more near its own right wing. Refugees and immigrants and "punishing" those are now the go-to argument for every legislative initiative. Also, governmental "message control", i.e., controlling what may be leaking of internal political communication or what may be setting an agenda, is deemed of high strategical importance by the ruling parties.
  - lazyjones 8y ago
    > it maybe worth stating that "left-leaning" is what was considered center just a few years ago. Please don't attempt to change the meaning of my post with your own interpretation. When I write "left-leaning", I mean exactly that.
rmu09 8y ago
This was triggered by a defamation lawsuit where a former female MP was being harrassed via facebook, made the harassement public via twitter, and subsequently sued by the owner of the facebook account. She lost the lawsuit and was ordered to pay damages. The court found that the owner of the facebook account is not necessarily the harasser, so making the harassement public is libel. Of course this case was only a welcome trigger to implement some law to cause FUD. Austrian government is completely illiterate in all things regarding internet, but in this case (and the case of the copyright directive), I would go as far and presume malicious intent (not just stupidity).
- pjc50 8y ago
  That seems like an absolutely nonsensical outcome from the court. Does anyone have the court transcript? (yes I'm aware of the risks of reading machine translated legal German, but it would be interesting to know) (I see that Facebook's ineffective harassment policy is at the root of this again)
  - peletiah 8y ago
    The first court decision has been overruled by the higher instance. However I don't agree with rmu09 that this was the trigger for this law.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    The decision was apparently invalidated by a higher court and the trial has to be repeated: https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-03/sigrid-maurer-politikerin-gruene-gerichtsurteil-nachrede https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-03/sigri...
- namlem 8y ago
  Are civil cases not based on preponderance of evidence in Austria? It seem like a fuck up of the court than a problem of internet anonymity.
  - peletiah 8y ago
hospitate 8y ago
“Populists” lol. It’s not like anyone on the political spectrum has any shame. All political entities will abuse every mechanism that is at their disposal that won’t get them in trouble. Maybe the “populists” were the first to take advantage because they are smarter?
- int_19h 8y ago
  Populist/technocrat is really more a function of who your key supporters are, and what kinds of appeals are more efficient with them.

free101 8y ago

Traditional parties center/left center/right in Europe have run their respective countries into the ground. Now they think that censoring information will save them so they can get back to the cozy system where state television is the source of truth. Also, of course it is always good for a politician to show some sort of activity, no matter how silly.

arrrg 8y ago
Describing the current government in Austria as center-right is a bit ridiculous (to say nothing of putting words like centrist or left anywhere near descriptions of that government). Austrian politics have been moving further and further to the right and the FPÖ (junior coalition partner) is a xenophobic far-right party with authoritarian streaks. I’m really not comfortable in describing a government where such a party participates as center-right.
- tracked_citizen 8y ago
  Censoring the internet is a popular topic among all center parties in Europe. For example "Hate-speech" censorship, where the end justifies the means, is popular among many left leaning parties. Isn't the proposal from an ÖVP minister? Does the ÖVP not qualify as center-right?
  - the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
    OeVP in the current incarnation is not in the center any more. Definitely right wing.
    - readittwice 8y ago
      No, that's just your opinion. The OVP is center-right, the FPO is right wing/populistic.
      - the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
        The OeVP current platform is to curb rights of immigrants, to reduce social support systems, lowers corporate tax rates, introduces laws to restrict social housing to non immigrants, reduces child support payments for children in other EU countries, continues the policy on border controls in Schengen, restricts skilled immigration, sets a maximum limit of 1.5 euro per hour income for asylum seekers when doing social service. What did this party do that’s center? The policies that OeVP introduces and advocates are more restrictive and conservative than the FPOe did under Haider.
        gxwmg 8y ago
        But do the ÖVP actually do that? I'm Spanish and I voted for a "conservative" government this last election, where they promised to do, well, stuff I expected from a conservative party, and they didn't do shit. That's why I call them "centrist". They say they are conservatives, but they don't conserve anything.
        the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
        I only enumerated things they put into law out they proposed or supported from the start. The things the FPOe did was getting rid of the smoking ban, raising the speed limits to 140, renaming the immigration centers to “departure centers”, proposals to cut the funding of the public broadcaster. Together they converted the country in record time into a dystopian place. Even putting childhood education back into former times by reintroducing marks for primary schoolers and minimum requirements that can cause children under 10 to have to repeat a class. They are now both also starting to talk about rolling back abortion rights.
- gxwmg 8y ago
  I think the wrong words were chosen by the parent. For many decades politics in Europe were dominated by traditional globalist governments, which I would describe as "centrist". For many people those governments are failing and voters are moving to the left and the right, depending on the country of course. Centrist governments are trying to use "hate speech" laws as a way of curbing their loss of control of the media; before they could control the newspapers and the telly and therefore they could control dialogue, now with social networks that's not that easy. We are seeing that with some stories, such as rapes in Sweden and all of that. They could simply tell their friends in TV networks not to talk about it. Problem solved. That doesn't work anymore. So they need the law. In Germany and Austria for example you need to put your real name and address in a visible part of your website known as the Impressum. What's a better way to make sure you keep your opinions under control and your head low?
  - peletiah 8y ago
    As others have pointed out, the austrian government is populist right/far-right. This is not a law by centrist parties, but by right-wing authoritarian.
  - tremon 8y ago
    those governments are failing and voters are moving to the left and the right, depending on the country of course. I think it's pretty universal across Europe that people are moving more to the extremes. But that doesn't make the original parties suddenly "centrist" -- they're just status-quo, "old school". Centrist governments are trying to use "hate speech" laws as a way of curbing their loss of control of the media I'm sorry, but this just sounds like populist propaganda. There hasn't been government control of the media like you suggest; instead, the media used to be civil. The current "popular" channels do away with civility, and any voice critical of that tone is immediately discarded by playing the victim, like you are doing here. The establishment, still representing the civil masses, is perfectly within scope to try and curb uncivility. Whether their methods are effective is up for debate, but the goal isn't -- we all know what happened last time Europe went uncivil (80 million premature deaths).
    - 8y ago
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  correct the FPÖ is in fact the continuation of the Nazi government and was founded by former Nazis (VDU)[1]. The FPÖ used to be mostly a problem of in Carinthia, where the party was infamous for it's beerfests crawling with skinheads. You might love the place as a tourist, but if you're an immigrant (even born there) and especially Turkish/Muslim (or simply have a different accent), then living in Austria is no fun. [1] (in German sorry): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiheitliche_Partei_%C3%96sterreichs#Vorg%C3%A4ngerpartei_VdU https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiheitliche_Partei_%C3%96ste...
- redshiftingstar 8y ago
  Not surprised by the political shift, I have lived there for few years and felt really discriminated. Few people actually stopped talking to me after they learn where I'm from(Turkey). It's bit out of context but I will heavily advise against moving there for non-European immigrants, don't make the same mistake that I did.
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    I feel for you. The Turkish community has a real hard time in Austria, much more so than Germany. I'm ashamed to say that many people from my childhood, today consider themselves liberals but in their rethoric are nothing more than the descendants of Nazis. The first thing I did when being old enough was to GTFO of Austria, and I haven't been back other than on vacation. I have a couple of Turkish friends in Germany who feel quite comfortable and at home there. From those I met in Austria they were by far not as cheerful. There is a lot of talk about "integration" which is basically a way to say: don't speak your language, don't eat your food, and don't visit your mosques because it offends us. Every attempt of me making friends among Turks in Austria has always been met with suspicion since they aren't used to it. Extremely sad and disgusting. I guess the problem is that people view Austria as some kind of liberal "Western" country, while geographically it is part of Eastern Europe and ideologically they are closer to those cheering for Victor Orban in Hungary. If you want to deeply offend (most) Austrians call them Eastern Europeans. They think they're better.

szbalint 8y ago

This comes from a government in which the junior coalition partner is the far-right FPÖ, an openly pro-Putin and authoritarian party. This law is part of their campaign to browbeat the press and public sphere into submission and it is following attempts to rein the austrian public broadcaster (orf) in. The proposed law is useless for any legitimate purpose, as anonymity was never a problem with hate speech or other things. People are willing to engage in hate speech, libel or just in overall awful things with their name attached without reservation already.

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
Putin even attended the wedding of Austrian foreign minister last year[1] and nobody was outraged, in fact Austrians on social media applauded it. Vienna is also crawling with Russian spooks. The problem in Austria is that the Russians have started buying a lot of property there decades ago. Property prices in Kitzbühel have been going through the roof thanks to Russian oligarchs buying up everything. Russians love Austria (as much as Cyprus) because it's a great place to hide and launder money, see[2]: Peter Pilz, a member of parliament from the opposition Greens party, said the Italian mafia, especially the Calabria-based ‘Ndrangheta, had years ago used Austria as a money-laundering centre, cleansing around 2 billion euros. “Now it is mainly a matter of Russian money. A lot of banks must be afraid that the Russians will take their millions and flee to Asia,” he said. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-karin-kneissl-wedding-austria-today-2018-08-18/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-karin-kneissl-we... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-banksecrecy-austria-idUSBRE93B0C620130412 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-banksecrecy-austria-id... see also: How Russia stands to profit from Austria’s new government: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/how-russia-stands-to-profit-from-austrias-new-government/ https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/how-russia-stands-to-p... edit: parent is getting silently downvoted for stating facts. welcome to HN.
cxy1211 8y ago
I wonder why people think that Putin controls all right wing parties on this planet (including Trump). No one talks about Gazprom Schroeder (center-left SPD) who destroyed the welfare state in Germany and then joined Gazprom.

the_mitsuhiko 8y ago

I doubt it solves any problems. The right wing parties just want to have more leverage for message control. A platform under the proposed law has to share the identity of an individual if another party wants to sue them for libel as an example. A think the FPOe does regularly.

GordonS 8y ago

If Austria is anything like the UK, I imagine it's a move designed largely to garner votes from a particular segment of the population who have been led to believe there's a terrorist round every corner, and "it's all to keep them safe".

lazyjones 8y ago

> Could anyone shed some light on which problem this is supposed to solve exactly and what triggered it in the first place in Austria right now? Existing hate-speech legislation allows persecution of users already, but in some cases the offenders hide too well or Facebook does not cooperate with authorities. Online newspaper forums are also now full of professionally organized dirt campaigns, sometimes tolerated by left-leaning media. The government wants to be able to persecute those who break the law and thinks it's the responsibility of media to at least make their users identifiable for authorities.

masswerk 8y ago
Since this is intended for international audiences, it maybe worth stating that "left-leaning" is what was considered center just a few years ago. (The idea of a general consent is somewhat a thing of a past.) Particularly "Der Standard", the newspaper the post is linking to, is now often attributed as "left" and its forum, the biggest and oldest one in Austria is subject to diffamation. (If you're reading the comments in this forum, there's a feeling that the law is meant to implement a premature censorship of sorts, an idea which is also maintained by some law and media professionals.) – While this is nothing like the US divide, there's no such thing like a common (political) perspective in Austria anymore. As a result, even comments meant to remind of the constitution and rule of law are sometimes countered by a qualification as left wing hate speech. Edit: Previously, the political center of Austria was slightly to the left, like in most European countries. Bored with the great center coalition, the conservative party (ÖVP) has burned all bridges to the center-left social democrats (SPÖ) and is now considering the center rather more near its own right wing. Refugees and immigrants and "punishing" those are now the go-to argument for every legislative initiative. Also, governmental "message control", i.e., controlling what may be leaking of internal political communication or what may be setting an agenda, is deemed of high strategical importance by the ruling parties.
- lazyjones 8y ago
  > it maybe worth stating that "left-leaning" is what was considered center just a few years ago. Please don't attempt to change the meaning of my post with your own interpretation. When I write "left-leaning", I mean exactly that.

rmu09 8y ago

This was triggered by a defamation lawsuit where a former female MP was being harrassed via facebook, made the harassement public via twitter, and subsequently sued by the owner of the facebook account. She lost the lawsuit and was ordered to pay damages. The court found that the owner of the facebook account is not necessarily the harasser, so making the harassement public is libel. Of course this case was only a welcome trigger to implement some law to cause FUD. Austrian government is completely illiterate in all things regarding internet, but in this case (and the case of the copyright directive), I would go as far and presume malicious intent (not just stupidity).

pjc50 8y ago
That seems like an absolutely nonsensical outcome from the court. Does anyone have the court transcript? (yes I'm aware of the risks of reading machine translated legal German, but it would be interesting to know) (I see that Facebook's ineffective harassment policy is at the root of this again)
- peletiah 8y ago
  The first court decision has been overruled by the higher instance. However I don't agree with rmu09 that this was the trigger for this law.
- yorwba 8y ago
  The decision was apparently invalidated by a higher court and the trial has to be repeated: https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-03/sigrid-maurer-politikerin-gruene-gerichtsurteil-nachrede https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-03/sigri...
namlem 8y ago
Are civil cases not based on preponderance of evidence in Austria? It seem like a fuck up of the court than a problem of internet anonymity.
- peletiah 8y ago

hospitate 8y ago

“Populists” lol. It’s not like anyone on the political spectrum has any shame. All political entities will abuse every mechanism that is at their disposal that won’t get them in trouble. Maybe the “populists” were the first to take advantage because they are smarter?

int_19h 8y ago
Populist/technocrat is really more a function of who your key supporters are, and what kinds of appeals are more efficient with them.