8 ms·

There are worse things in life than brain damage risk, and I'm thankful that others aren't allowed to choose for me how I approach those risks.

Scoundreller 7y ago
But will you even get to approach the risk in the first place? Every venue will require its leagues/teams playing on it to get insurance. And if nobody will underwrite that insurance, or the price is sky-high, then the sport practically won’t exist at the recreational or professional level. Doubly so if governments start refusing to subsidize the construction of their rec/professional playing areas.
- bdamm 7y ago
  It's OK by me that things you can't get insurance for die off. Nobody knows risk like insurance companies.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
What can be worse than damaging your brain? It’s literally what makes you, you.
- sgt101 7y ago
  There are many things, for example, becoming morbidly obese and dying of a heart attack in your 20's, getting convicted of a violent crime and being sentenced to life imprisonment, getting killed in a war, getting killed in a car wreck. Humans are not rational brains riding round in a sort of meat carriage, we are animals and our whole body (and social setting) adds up to who we are. Physical conflict is part of human life - specifically a proportion of young men are predisposed to physical rivalry. Taking options to express this away does not remove the predisposition, it merely shifts it to other outlets which may be much less constrained and much less positive.
  - FeteCommuniste 7y ago
    Plenty of competitive physical activities don’t involve routine hits to the head...
    - cljs-js-eval 7y ago
      No, but the ones I and others want to do involve hits to the head. You don't get to decide for me whether the risk of injury is greater than my enjoyment of the sport. You can be dictator of your own life.
      - sgt101 7y ago
        I 90% agree - but the inducements and pressure on athletes from the big prizes of sport mean that there is a duty of care as well. The use of padding seems to increase injury in both NFL and Rugby but makes for more spectacular and acceptable TV (players being visibly knocked out or stretchered off are upsetting viewing), gloves and head guards in boxing the same. In Rugby the rules are being altered to reduce blows to the head and being honest I think that it will not change the character of the game at all. Combat sports and soccer are bigger challenges, although for soccer I wonder if the changes in pitches and balls over the last 30 years mean that the data on player injury is much less valid - the aerial game doesn't mean much to Messi after all.
        cljs-js-eval 7y ago
        At the pro level, I think I agree with you too. That is different enough from the amateur scene that it deserves its own ethical analysis.
- areyouseriousxx 7y ago
  Health problems due to a childhood of inactivity and obesity? Behavioral issues in young males without a physical outlet for aggression? I'm not sure what type of childhood you had, but the idea the soccer and high school football is going to give a person brain damage is goofy simply based on the current and available data. If you simply look at that massive number of males that played high school football in, for example, the 1970s, we would have epidemic levels of serious brain issues in an enormous percentage of the the male population. We would be talking about 10s of millions of people with serious brain damage. For example, in 2016, over 1,000,000 young males played high school football. I think it is safe to say that men between 50 and 60 years old do not all have serious brain issues. Even though a very high percentage of those men played high school football. With that said, we have much lower numbers of men that have played division 1 college football and an even smaller number that played more than a few years in the NFL. In the NFL, the average career length is only 3 years. The speed, size, and strength increases dramatically at that level and we are seeing data that could indicate real issues with brain injury. It is strange to see people on a site like HN that do not even have a basic understanding of data driven concusions.
  - jogjayr 7y ago
    > Behavioral issues in young males without a physical outlet for aggression? There are so many other sports though. Soccer can be played without heading (Barcelona under Pep Guardiola were acclaimed for playing it that way), and there's flag football, basketball, field and ice hockey, lacrosse, wrestling, karate, judo, handball, ultimate Frisbee.
  - bdamm 7y ago
    > epidemic levels of serious brain issues in an enormous percentage of the the male population How would we know? Could it be possible that irrational support for extremists is a result of CTE?
- cljs-js-eval 7y ago
  Correction - a risk of damaging your brain. Not a certainty. The difference is important.
mlthoughts2018 7y ago
Unfortunately middle school and high school kids pressured into playing, or choosing to play when it is not conceptually possible for them to grant consent to bear longterm injury risks they can’t fully understand, are unprotected from these risks in highly questionable ways.

Scoundreller 7y ago

But will you even get to approach the risk in the first place? Every venue will require its leagues/teams playing on it to get insurance. And if nobody will underwrite that insurance, or the price is sky-high, then the sport practically won’t exist at the recreational or professional level. Doubly so if governments start refusing to subsidize the construction of their rec/professional playing areas.

bdamm 7y ago
It's OK by me that things you can't get insurance for die off. Nobody knows risk like insurance companies.

lotsofpulp 7y ago

What can be worse than damaging your brain? It’s literally what makes you, you.

sgt101 7y ago
There are many things, for example, becoming morbidly obese and dying of a heart attack in your 20's, getting convicted of a violent crime and being sentenced to life imprisonment, getting killed in a war, getting killed in a car wreck. Humans are not rational brains riding round in a sort of meat carriage, we are animals and our whole body (and social setting) adds up to who we are. Physical conflict is part of human life - specifically a proportion of young men are predisposed to physical rivalry. Taking options to express this away does not remove the predisposition, it merely shifts it to other outlets which may be much less constrained and much less positive.
- FeteCommuniste 7y ago
  Plenty of competitive physical activities don’t involve routine hits to the head...
  - cljs-js-eval 7y ago
    No, but the ones I and others want to do involve hits to the head. You don't get to decide for me whether the risk of injury is greater than my enjoyment of the sport. You can be dictator of your own life.
    - sgt101 7y ago
      I 90% agree - but the inducements and pressure on athletes from the big prizes of sport mean that there is a duty of care as well. The use of padding seems to increase injury in both NFL and Rugby but makes for more spectacular and acceptable TV (players being visibly knocked out or stretchered off are upsetting viewing), gloves and head guards in boxing the same. In Rugby the rules are being altered to reduce blows to the head and being honest I think that it will not change the character of the game at all. Combat sports and soccer are bigger challenges, although for soccer I wonder if the changes in pitches and balls over the last 30 years mean that the data on player injury is much less valid - the aerial game doesn't mean much to Messi after all.
      - cljs-js-eval 7y ago
        At the pro level, I think I agree with you too. That is different enough from the amateur scene that it deserves its own ethical analysis.
areyouseriousxx 7y ago
Health problems due to a childhood of inactivity and obesity? Behavioral issues in young males without a physical outlet for aggression? I'm not sure what type of childhood you had, but the idea the soccer and high school football is going to give a person brain damage is goofy simply based on the current and available data. If you simply look at that massive number of males that played high school football in, for example, the 1970s, we would have epidemic levels of serious brain issues in an enormous percentage of the the male population. We would be talking about 10s of millions of people with serious brain damage. For example, in 2016, over 1,000,000 young males played high school football. I think it is safe to say that men between 50 and 60 years old do not all have serious brain issues. Even though a very high percentage of those men played high school football. With that said, we have much lower numbers of men that have played division 1 college football and an even smaller number that played more than a few years in the NFL. In the NFL, the average career length is only 3 years. The speed, size, and strength increases dramatically at that level and we are seeing data that could indicate real issues with brain injury. It is strange to see people on a site like HN that do not even have a basic understanding of data driven concusions.
- jogjayr 7y ago
  > Behavioral issues in young males without a physical outlet for aggression? There are so many other sports though. Soccer can be played without heading (Barcelona under Pep Guardiola were acclaimed for playing it that way), and there's flag football, basketball, field and ice hockey, lacrosse, wrestling, karate, judo, handball, ultimate Frisbee.
- bdamm 7y ago
  > epidemic levels of serious brain issues in an enormous percentage of the the male population How would we know? Could it be possible that irrational support for extremists is a result of CTE?
cljs-js-eval 7y ago
Correction - a risk of damaging your brain. Not a certainty. The difference is important.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

Unfortunately middle school and high school kids pressured into playing, or choosing to play when it is not conceptually possible for them to grant consent to bear longterm injury risks they can’t fully understand, are unprotected from these risks in highly questionable ways.