5 ms·

Working memory revived in older adults by synchronizing rhythmic brain circuits

100 points by monort 8y ago

hosh 8y ago
Huh, I wonder if there is something similar to be studied with autistic brains. (My step-daughter has HFA; difficulty with working memory and executive functioning is common for HFA females).
- andai 8y ago
  I was wondering if something like this might help with my ADHD... a thinking cap, if you will :)
  - matt4077 8y ago
    Intuitively (I did some research in bioinformatics, including the brain, but mostly its genetics) I would think ADHD could quite possible respond to something like this, while for autism chances are lower. Reasoning being that rhythms are quite prominent in studying focus, while autism probably has a structural aspect. But before you start attaching electrodes, do consider Ritalin. Among all psychiatric diseases, ADHD has pretty much the best claim to having seen meaningful therapeutic interventions.
    - FakeComments 8y ago
      Isn’t the structural signal of autism often an underconnection in the brain? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21378114 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21378114 I agree that it’s more likely ADHD would respond, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t use overdriving to show an underconnected brain how to synchronize in a more neurotypical manner.
  - porpoisemonkey 8y ago
    There are already treatments like this. When I was in high school I started a minor computer repair business. One of my customers was a treatment service where they would place electrodes on the head of an individual to measure certain brainwave activity. The electrodes were connected through a device back to a laptop which was playing a video. I'm explaining it very imprecisely (I'm an expert by no means) but the way it worked is that the video would only play when the measured brainwaves met the pattern(s) established for concentration. The idea being that the person would want the video to play continuously (without pausing or chopping) so badly that their brain would train itself to enter into the "concentrating" brainwave pattern. I'm not sure what the efficacy of the solution is but the idea was interesting at the time. UPDATE: Just looked it up and the term they use for this is "neurofeedback" training. Looks like there are significant criticisms to the approach and study of this treatment so maybe it isn't a viable approach after all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofeedback https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofeedback
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - trevyn 8y ago
      There are certainly criticisms, grains of salt, and hucksterism involved, but I think it would be premature to entirely dismiss neurofeedback. Importantly, there is not “one kind” of neurofeedback, and the specific EEG patterns to optimize for is open to debate. Douglas Dailey has some interesting hypotheses and an excellent list of references for further investigation: https://tagsync.com/ https://tagsync.com/
    - andai 8y ago
      Neurofeedback isn't quite the same thing as neuro-stimulation. Neurofeedback just encourages (through positive feedback) the brain to stimulate itself :) I've been practicing meditation for a few years and it has slowly but steadily improved my ability to concentrate. (Also worth mentioning that witnessing emotions as a field of sensation allows them to "dissolve" instead of getting stuck, and has helped me overcome various addictions and roadblocks.) Meditation was shown to develop the prefrontal cortex (involved in decision-making, working memory, inhibition, emotional regulation..), which is (are) underdeveloped in people with ADHD. I'm wondering how this kind of independent, willpower based practice compares with the constant external feedback of neurofeedback training, seeing as one of the main deficits in ADHD is self-motivation. My guess is that a combination might be most effective: train the concentrated state itself to make it more accessible, and then train the will (habit) to access it. Or put another way, make use of both internal and external technology :)
nisten 8y ago
Say wooot? Since I can't read the paywalled article I'm wondering how exactly do you apply "noninvasive stimulation" on these frequencies. Was it audio, electrodes on a shaved head, combination of drugs, did this work in rats first etc..
- chilukrn 8y ago
  I don't think we can call electrodes on (in?) a shaved head 'non-invasive'...
  - cat199 8y ago
    it is 'on'. And so, yes, we can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-invasive_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-invasive_procedure
  - chefandy 8y ago
    Well, since I don't consider getting a haircut or shaving to be a surgical procedure, I'd disagree.
- redofrac 8y ago
  > To test these predictions, we conducted a double blind, sham-controlled, within-subjects experiment using EEG and high-definition tACS (HD-tACS; a form of tACS that provides more precise targeting of cortical structures) So they're applying stimulation with electrodes placed on the head. tMS and stuff like this are the main ways available right now for non-invasively inducing oscillatory activity.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- trevyn 8y ago
  Not sure about this article, but there is some work using ultrasonic transducers that I don’t see mentioned frequently. (Magnetic stimulation has a longer history.)
throwawaymanbot 8y ago
Like this? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581515/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581515/
- fao_ 8y ago
  You have a long list of good comments, so it's worth telling you that you were shadow banned at least 6 months ago... I just vouched for this comment and I have showdead enabled.
  - iron0013 8y ago
    Yikes, he was shadowbanned in August of 2017 after creating the account in June 2017 and has been commenting into the void ever since!
    - modzu 8y ago
      lol! out of curiosity, how can u tell when their account was banned?
      - cabaalis 8y ago
        In your profile, enable showdead. The history goes back a way. Seeing all those unaddressed, never-seen comments causes me some personal existential self-examining on the value (or rather, potential non-value) of my own thoughts :)
        etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
        So why can I see his comment then? if he's shadowbanned? because you commented?
        fao_ 8y ago
        Because I vouched for it
thrrr 8y ago
full text is available at RG https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332281661_Working_memory_revived_in_older_adults_by_synchronizing_rhythmic_brain_circuits https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332281661_Working_m...
okigan 8y ago
http://www.natap.org/2019/HIV/s41593.pdf http://www.natap.org/2019/HIV/s41593.pdf
zwieback 8y ago
Seems amazing that currents < 2mA at frequencies in the low Hz do anything. That's practically DC, I guess the trick is all in synching the signals to what's going on in your head.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_stimulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_st...
  - arthurcolle 8y ago
    I really recommend Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation: A Neurochronometrics of Mind (A Bradford Book) by Vincent Walsh for anyone who wants a really concise view of one aspect of the field. I was super interested in this when I was in my first few years of college but the fear of electrocution pretty much dissuaded me from trying anything like building an apparatus myself.
    - copperx 8y ago
      Isn't there a commercial device built with safety mechanisms to do this?
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        There is not, as it would have to go through medical device approval.
      - oceanghost 8y ago
        I'm struggling to remember the name, but there was a company that sold a TDCS machine marketed as a game performance enhancement device. It only did one montage and was ridiculously unsafe. It used to leave red marks under the sponges on my forehead. Eventually, the app that controlled it aged out of the app store.
Paul-ish 8y ago
This reminds me of a section of the book "Why we sleep"[1] that said similar techniques could enhance an older persons sleep quality. (I don't know the title of the study unfortunately.) It looks like this is an exciting area of research right now. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
caseymarquis 8y ago
Considering the time the treatment takes, I'd be curious to compare the results to 25 minutes a day doing something else which syncs up the brain. Playing an instrument (if physically capable) or meditation.

100 points by monort 8y ago

hosh 8y ago

Huh, I wonder if there is something similar to be studied with autistic brains. (My step-daughter has HFA; difficulty with working memory and executive functioning is common for HFA females).

andai 8y ago
I was wondering if something like this might help with my ADHD... a thinking cap, if you will :)
- matt4077 8y ago
  Intuitively (I did some research in bioinformatics, including the brain, but mostly its genetics) I would think ADHD could quite possible respond to something like this, while for autism chances are lower. Reasoning being that rhythms are quite prominent in studying focus, while autism probably has a structural aspect. But before you start attaching electrodes, do consider Ritalin. Among all psychiatric diseases, ADHD has pretty much the best claim to having seen meaningful therapeutic interventions.
  - FakeComments 8y ago
    Isn’t the structural signal of autism often an underconnection in the brain? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21378114 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21378114 I agree that it’s more likely ADHD would respond, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t use overdriving to show an underconnected brain how to synchronize in a more neurotypical manner.
- porpoisemonkey 8y ago
  There are already treatments like this. When I was in high school I started a minor computer repair business. One of my customers was a treatment service where they would place electrodes on the head of an individual to measure certain brainwave activity. The electrodes were connected through a device back to a laptop which was playing a video. I'm explaining it very imprecisely (I'm an expert by no means) but the way it worked is that the video would only play when the measured brainwaves met the pattern(s) established for concentration. The idea being that the person would want the video to play continuously (without pausing or chopping) so badly that their brain would train itself to enter into the "concentrating" brainwave pattern. I'm not sure what the efficacy of the solution is but the idea was interesting at the time. UPDATE: Just looked it up and the term they use for this is "neurofeedback" training. Looks like there are significant criticisms to the approach and study of this treatment so maybe it isn't a viable approach after all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofeedback https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofeedback
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - trevyn 8y ago
    There are certainly criticisms, grains of salt, and hucksterism involved, but I think it would be premature to entirely dismiss neurofeedback. Importantly, there is not “one kind” of neurofeedback, and the specific EEG patterns to optimize for is open to debate. Douglas Dailey has some interesting hypotheses and an excellent list of references for further investigation: https://tagsync.com/ https://tagsync.com/
  - andai 8y ago
    Neurofeedback isn't quite the same thing as neuro-stimulation. Neurofeedback just encourages (through positive feedback) the brain to stimulate itself :) I've been practicing meditation for a few years and it has slowly but steadily improved my ability to concentrate. (Also worth mentioning that witnessing emotions as a field of sensation allows them to "dissolve" instead of getting stuck, and has helped me overcome various addictions and roadblocks.) Meditation was shown to develop the prefrontal cortex (involved in decision-making, working memory, inhibition, emotional regulation..), which is (are) underdeveloped in people with ADHD. I'm wondering how this kind of independent, willpower based practice compares with the constant external feedback of neurofeedback training, seeing as one of the main deficits in ADHD is self-motivation. My guess is that a combination might be most effective: train the concentrated state itself to make it more accessible, and then train the will (habit) to access it. Or put another way, make use of both internal and external technology :)

nisten 8y ago

Say wooot? Since I can't read the paywalled article I'm wondering how exactly do you apply "noninvasive stimulation" on these frequencies. Was it audio, electrodes on a shaved head, combination of drugs, did this work in rats first etc..

chilukrn 8y ago
I don't think we can call electrodes on (in?) a shaved head 'non-invasive'...
- cat199 8y ago
  it is 'on'. And so, yes, we can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-invasive_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-invasive_procedure
- chefandy 8y ago
  Well, since I don't consider getting a haircut or shaving to be a surgical procedure, I'd disagree.
redofrac 8y ago
> To test these predictions, we conducted a double blind, sham-controlled, within-subjects experiment using EEG and high-definition tACS (HD-tACS; a form of tACS that provides more precise targeting of cortical structures) So they're applying stimulation with electrodes placed on the head. tMS and stuff like this are the main ways available right now for non-invasively inducing oscillatory activity.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
trevyn 8y ago
Not sure about this article, but there is some work using ultrasonic transducers that I don’t see mentioned frequently. (Magnetic stimulation has a longer history.)

throwawaymanbot 8y ago

Like this? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581515/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581515/

fao_ 8y ago
You have a long list of good comments, so it's worth telling you that you were shadow banned at least 6 months ago... I just vouched for this comment and I have showdead enabled.
- iron0013 8y ago
  Yikes, he was shadowbanned in August of 2017 after creating the account in June 2017 and has been commenting into the void ever since!
  - modzu 8y ago
    lol! out of curiosity, how can u tell when their account was banned?
    - cabaalis 8y ago
      In your profile, enable showdead. The history goes back a way. Seeing all those unaddressed, never-seen comments causes me some personal existential self-examining on the value (or rather, potential non-value) of my own thoughts :)
      - etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
        So why can I see his comment then? if he's shadowbanned? because you commented?
        fao_ 8y ago
        Because I vouched for it

thrrr 8y ago

full text is available at RG https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332281661_Working_memory_revived_in_older_adults_by_synchronizing_rhythmic_brain_circuits https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332281661_Working_m...

okigan 8y ago

http://www.natap.org/2019/HIV/s41593.pdf http://www.natap.org/2019/HIV/s41593.pdf

zwieback 8y ago

Seems amazing that currents < 2mA at frequencies in the low Hz do anything. That's practically DC, I guess the trick is all in synching the signals to what's going on in your head.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_stimulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_st...
- arthurcolle 8y ago
  I really recommend Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation: A Neurochronometrics of Mind (A Bradford Book) by Vincent Walsh for anyone who wants a really concise view of one aspect of the field. I was super interested in this when I was in my first few years of college but the fear of electrocution pretty much dissuaded me from trying anything like building an apparatus myself.
  - copperx 8y ago
    Isn't there a commercial device built with safety mechanisms to do this?
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      There is not, as it would have to go through medical device approval.
    - oceanghost 8y ago
      I'm struggling to remember the name, but there was a company that sold a TDCS machine marketed as a game performance enhancement device. It only did one montage and was ridiculously unsafe. It used to leave red marks under the sponges on my forehead. Eventually, the app that controlled it aged out of the app store.

Paul-ish 8y ago

This reminds me of a section of the book "Why we sleep"[1] that said similar techniques could enhance an older persons sleep quality. (I don't know the title of the study unfortunately.) It looks like this is an exciting area of research right now. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...

caseymarquis 8y ago

Considering the time the treatment takes, I'd be curious to compare the results to 25 minutes a day doing something else which syncs up the brain. Playing an instrument (if physically capable) or meditation.