7 ms·

I've been harsh to Microsoft in the past (for what I consider good reasons) but I want to give credit where credit is due - this is exactly the sort of behavior

I've been harsh to Microsoft in the past (for what I consider good reasons) but I want to give credit where credit is due - this is exactly the sort of behavior that many have been asking for from companies. Foresee a problem, don't do the thing. It doesn't matter that there's an argument of this refusal being good business - truth is, big companies being confident that consumer outrage won't translate into enough market impact to say they shouldn't do the bad thing has become the norm. Nice to see an instance where that's the not the case.

Y_Y 8y ago
Now that they've gotten the credit for refusing, they'll probably wait a year and do it anyway with some slick PR. You can link this comment then.
- SkyBelow 8y ago
  That's an overly pessimistic view. I give them 3 years.
  - cpeterso 8y ago
    As amrrs noted above https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19686009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19686009: "Microsoft accused of being 'complicit' in persecution of 1 million Muslims after helping China develop sinister AI capabilities" https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crackdown-ai-partnership-complicit-2019-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crack...
- naikrovek 8y ago
  > Now that they've gotten the credit for refusing, they'll probably wait a year and do it anyway with some slick PR. You can link this comment then. This attitude concerns me, a bit. You're mad at Microsoft (it appears) for something they haven't done, and for using "slick PR" that doesn't exist. What's the basis for the anger?
  - jgust 8y ago
    History?
    - naikrovek 8y ago
      Are you asking a question? Since Satya Nadella has become CEO of Microsoft, exactly what history is there that is dark enough to blacklist that company from any positive reaction? I AM asking.
      - ionised 8y ago
        Are you trolling? Windows 10 and its heavy use of dark patterns for excessive data collection is reason enough for me to loathe the company. Plus those decades of ruthless antitrust/monopoly abuse by MS under Bill Gates has left its mark on the culture. They are going to need to behave quite spectacularly for at least 20 more years before I even consider viewing them as a customer friendly company with a social conscience.
        naikrovek 7y ago
        Are YOU trolling? I'm not, and I suspect that you are. Dark patterns in Windows 10 were used to get people to upgrade, and the exec behind those decisions was let go. What exactly constitutes "excessive data collection" to you? If you are saying "telemetry" then turn off all of your computers and devices forever, because they ALL do it. Microsoft is simply more open about actually doing it than most places. Bill Gates has donated more money to charity than anyone in history, and through that charity work has certainly saved more lives than you or me. Just admit that you like disliking Microsoft and that your opinion isn't based on anything real.
        ionised 7y ago
        > Dark patterns in Windows 10 were used to get people to upgrade, and the exec behind those decisions was let go. Don't care. They are still using dark patterns all over Windows 10 to convince people to disable various privacy settings. It also doesn't matter that it was to get people to upgrade. The ends don't justify the means. Shitty behaviour == shitty company. > What exactly constitutes "excessive data collection" to you? If you are saying "telemetry" then turn off all of your computers and devices forever, because they ALL do it. Microsoft is simply more open about actually doing it than most places. Argumentum ad populum. "Other people do it too!" is not valid defence of this behaviour. I'm not going to argue with logical fallacies. The fact that the EU just passed GDPR and the fact that people all over the world are waking up to the ramifications of this dragnet data collections is a sign of things to come: surveillance capitalism has peaked and people, when they actually understand what is happening, do not like this behaviour. Keep using those dark patterns to deceive your users though. > Bill Gates has donated more money to charity than anyone in history, and through that charity work has certainly saved more lives than you or me. Ah yes, the Bill and Melinda Gate's foundation. The colossal tax write-off scheme that allows Bill Gate's to avoid having his wealth taxed before he dies so he can make his children 'directors' of the foundation with security for life so he can get around that pesky vow he made about not giving his children all his money when he croaks. The fact that he puts some money towards charity at the end of his utterly selfish life to try to leave a legacy that is anything but negative is transparent and shallow. Nothing will ever make up for what he has done in the past, the business he bullied into submission and the lives ruined by his antitrust practices and hostile attitude to open source. So a lot of people are being saved now due to contributions made by the Gate's foundation. That's great, it really is. I still donate a larger proportion of my wealth to charity than he does. He's barely even trying. Bill Gate's is part of modern societies problem. Billionaires that can't see it's their and their ilk's own actions that bring so much of the misery they are seeing. The little good is doing will never make up for what he is and what he has done. Yet we were talking about Windows 10, and you started whining on about Bill Gates. I'm guessing you're a Microsoft employee.
- tru3_power 7y ago
  I honestly have very little doubt that this will happen.
amrrs 8y ago
In the other news, Microsoft accused of being 'complicit' in persecution of 1 million Muslims after helping China develop sinister AI capabilities. http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crackdown-ai-partnership-complicit-2019-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crackd...
- chefandy 8y ago
  Rubio told the FT: "It is deeply disturbing that an American company would be actively working with the Chinese military to further build up the government's surveillance network against its own people [...]" I can see why the US government is perturbed. The more patriotic thing to do would be helping the NSA, FBI, and a bunch of good, old-fashioned American TLAs build up our own government surveillance network against our own people, and maybe helping the CIA and US Military build up its surveillance network of the Chinese people.
  - gtirloni 8y ago
    That wouldn't be more patriotic if by being patriotic you mean helping your fellowmen and not the current establishment. However, it'd make more sense to help your own establishment vs a foreign one. MS being a global company, one has to wonder how much MS HQ can prevent other branches from engaging in very lucrative projects like that.
    - ARandomerDude 8y ago
      I think your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning today.
      - dmix 8y ago
        The rule of internet sarcasm is at least one person will reply in earnest given a large enough audience.
        rotrux 8y ago
ddebernardy 8y ago
Isn't the actual problem lawsuit related? If I am not mistaking, the shareholders are entitled to sue under the current doctrine for not acting in their best interest. MS would arguably defend itself making the case that key employees might resign, or key accounts might leave, or whatever else its legal team comes up with. MS might even win such a case for all we know. Still, a court case could be an unwanted distraction. Or an interesting test case, depending on viewpoint.
- jdc 8y ago
  There is no legal requirement to maximize shareholder "value". https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/shareholder-value.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/shareholder-value.asp
Bombthecat 8y ago
What prevents another company from doing this from China or Saudi Arabia?
- ergothus 8y ago
  Absolutely nothing. But I find "someone else might do it" to be a bit of a weak excuse to do anything. Every bad thing that COULD happen that HASN'T happened is because someone (usually multiple someones) chose not to do it. It's really that simple. The first step in no one doing any particular thing is to not do it. And while there are cases where this forces a tough choice, the majority of such cases aren't that tough. Like here: The question is not "do we make mega bucks and be evil, or be poor but good". The question here is "Do we make mega bucks being evil or do we go try to make mega bucks elsewhere?"
  - skybrian 8y ago
    There's a more subtle argument though: someone else will do it, and they will be worse. If you're in the room, you might have a chance of affecting a decision. Personally I avoid having to make tough calls, but I respect people who think about it differently.
    - ergothus 8y ago
      That's a VERY slippery slope, and there are very few arguments where I am personally convinced by it. (and I say that as someone that generally finds "slippery slope" arguments to be overblown about how slippery and how sloped) Feels more like an excuse than a reason. A world where we don't do something bad creates a reason not to do it. A world where we say it's okay to do the bad things because we assume that someone else will not only do them, they will be more evil than us (and here we are compromising our morals from the start) removes any such incentive and creates a race to the bottom.
      - skybrian 8y ago
        Well, yes, but much like undercover work or espionage, it would make for a good story, anyway.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Y_Y 8y ago

Now that they've gotten the credit for refusing, they'll probably wait a year and do it anyway with some slick PR. You can link this comment then.

SkyBelow 8y ago
That's an overly pessimistic view. I give them 3 years.
- cpeterso 8y ago
  As amrrs noted above https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19686009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19686009: "Microsoft accused of being 'complicit' in persecution of 1 million Muslims after helping China develop sinister AI capabilities" https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crackdown-ai-partnership-complicit-2019-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crack...
naikrovek 8y ago
> Now that they've gotten the credit for refusing, they'll probably wait a year and do it anyway with some slick PR. You can link this comment then. This attitude concerns me, a bit. You're mad at Microsoft (it appears) for something they haven't done, and for using "slick PR" that doesn't exist. What's the basis for the anger?
- jgust 8y ago
  History?
  - naikrovek 8y ago
    Are you asking a question? Since Satya Nadella has become CEO of Microsoft, exactly what history is there that is dark enough to blacklist that company from any positive reaction? I AM asking.
    - ionised 8y ago
      Are you trolling? Windows 10 and its heavy use of dark patterns for excessive data collection is reason enough for me to loathe the company. Plus those decades of ruthless antitrust/monopoly abuse by MS under Bill Gates has left its mark on the culture. They are going to need to behave quite spectacularly for at least 20 more years before I even consider viewing them as a customer friendly company with a social conscience.
      - naikrovek 7y ago
        Are YOU trolling? I'm not, and I suspect that you are. Dark patterns in Windows 10 were used to get people to upgrade, and the exec behind those decisions was let go. What exactly constitutes "excessive data collection" to you? If you are saying "telemetry" then turn off all of your computers and devices forever, because they ALL do it. Microsoft is simply more open about actually doing it than most places. Bill Gates has donated more money to charity than anyone in history, and through that charity work has certainly saved more lives than you or me. Just admit that you like disliking Microsoft and that your opinion isn't based on anything real.
        ionised 7y ago
        > Dark patterns in Windows 10 were used to get people to upgrade, and the exec behind those decisions was let go. Don't care. They are still using dark patterns all over Windows 10 to convince people to disable various privacy settings. It also doesn't matter that it was to get people to upgrade. The ends don't justify the means. Shitty behaviour == shitty company. > What exactly constitutes "excessive data collection" to you? If you are saying "telemetry" then turn off all of your computers and devices forever, because they ALL do it. Microsoft is simply more open about actually doing it than most places. Argumentum ad populum. "Other people do it too!" is not valid defence of this behaviour. I'm not going to argue with logical fallacies. The fact that the EU just passed GDPR and the fact that people all over the world are waking up to the ramifications of this dragnet data collections is a sign of things to come: surveillance capitalism has peaked and people, when they actually understand what is happening, do not like this behaviour. Keep using those dark patterns to deceive your users though. > Bill Gates has donated more money to charity than anyone in history, and through that charity work has certainly saved more lives than you or me. Ah yes, the Bill and Melinda Gate's foundation. The colossal tax write-off scheme that allows Bill Gate's to avoid having his wealth taxed before he dies so he can make his children 'directors' of the foundation with security for life so he can get around that pesky vow he made about not giving his children all his money when he croaks. The fact that he puts some money towards charity at the end of his utterly selfish life to try to leave a legacy that is anything but negative is transparent and shallow. Nothing will ever make up for what he has done in the past, the business he bullied into submission and the lives ruined by his antitrust practices and hostile attitude to open source. So a lot of people are being saved now due to contributions made by the Gate's foundation. That's great, it really is. I still donate a larger proportion of my wealth to charity than he does. He's barely even trying. Bill Gate's is part of modern societies problem. Billionaires that can't see it's their and their ilk's own actions that bring so much of the misery they are seeing. The little good is doing will never make up for what he is and what he has done. Yet we were talking about Windows 10, and you started whining on about Bill Gates. I'm guessing you're a Microsoft employee.
tru3_power 7y ago
I honestly have very little doubt that this will happen.

amrrs 8y ago

In the other news, Microsoft accused of being 'complicit' in persecution of 1 million Muslims after helping China develop sinister AI capabilities. http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crackdown-ai-partnership-complicit-2019-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-china-muslim-crackd...

chefandy 8y ago
Rubio told the FT: "It is deeply disturbing that an American company would be actively working with the Chinese military to further build up the government's surveillance network against its own people [...]" I can see why the US government is perturbed. The more patriotic thing to do would be helping the NSA, FBI, and a bunch of good, old-fashioned American TLAs build up our own government surveillance network against our own people, and maybe helping the CIA and US Military build up its surveillance network of the Chinese people.
- gtirloni 8y ago
  That wouldn't be more patriotic if by being patriotic you mean helping your fellowmen and not the current establishment. However, it'd make more sense to help your own establishment vs a foreign one. MS being a global company, one has to wonder how much MS HQ can prevent other branches from engaging in very lucrative projects like that.
  - ARandomerDude 8y ago
    I think your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning today.
    - dmix 8y ago
      The rule of internet sarcasm is at least one person will reply in earnest given a large enough audience.
      - rotrux 8y ago

ddebernardy 8y ago

Isn't the actual problem lawsuit related? If I am not mistaking, the shareholders are entitled to sue under the current doctrine for not acting in their best interest. MS would arguably defend itself making the case that key employees might resign, or key accounts might leave, or whatever else its legal team comes up with. MS might even win such a case for all we know. Still, a court case could be an unwanted distraction. Or an interesting test case, depending on viewpoint.

jdc 8y ago
There is no legal requirement to maximize shareholder "value". https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/shareholder-value.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/shareholder-value.asp

Bombthecat 8y ago

What prevents another company from doing this from China or Saudi Arabia?

ergothus 8y ago
Absolutely nothing. But I find "someone else might do it" to be a bit of a weak excuse to do anything. Every bad thing that COULD happen that HASN'T happened is because someone (usually multiple someones) chose not to do it. It's really that simple. The first step in no one doing any particular thing is to not do it. And while there are cases where this forces a tough choice, the majority of such cases aren't that tough. Like here: The question is not "do we make mega bucks and be evil, or be poor but good". The question here is "Do we make mega bucks being evil or do we go try to make mega bucks elsewhere?"
- skybrian 8y ago
  There's a more subtle argument though: someone else will do it, and they will be worse. If you're in the room, you might have a chance of affecting a decision. Personally I avoid having to make tough calls, but I respect people who think about it differently.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    That's a VERY slippery slope, and there are very few arguments where I am personally convinced by it. (and I say that as someone that generally finds "slippery slope" arguments to be overblown about how slippery and how sloped) Feels more like an excuse than a reason. A world where we don't do something bad creates a reason not to do it. A world where we say it's okay to do the bad things because we assume that someone else will not only do them, they will be more evil than us (and here we are compromising our morals from the start) removes any such incentive and creates a race to the bottom.
    - skybrian 8y ago
      Well, yes, but much like undercover work or espionage, it would make for a good story, anyway.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]