8 ms·

This is a hard question to answer, but here are a few thoughts: 1. Resigning from a tenured position likely means taking a one-way street. The exception is a w

by ptero 8y ago

This is a hard question to answer, but here are a few thoughts: 1. Resigning from a tenured position likely means taking a one-way street. The exception is a well-known scientist that can easily switch tenure to 2-3 other school today. In many fields competition for tenure is brutal and once you leave you may have some disadvantages in re-entry against a bunch of post-docs. "Only losers leave academia" is still a widely held mindset. All this does not mean not to resign; just be aware. 2. Do you still need money? The fact that the company is not ramen profitable in 7 years (including last 3 years of dedicated effort) means it may not be a source of income for a while. If you are not set for life, how long can you afford to not work? Will you be OK in industry (some professors thrive there some are completely miserable with a manager who tells them what to do and imposes deadlines)? Unless you are set for life I would seriously consider your 50% option -- you get another year to fully dedicate to your startup without teaching a single day and still maintain tenure. In a year, re-evaluate. My 2c.

ChuckMcM 8y ago
> The fact that the company is not ramen profitable in 7 years (including last 3 years of dedicated effort) means it may not be a source of income for a while. This is always a flag for me for something that needs to be investigated. Personally I think the idea the guy took to stick with CoCalc was interesting but at the same time he should really really consider hiring a CFO, someone who really understands where the money comes in and how it goes out. Such a person could tell him exactly how much "lifetime value" is needed from each customer in order to make the company a going concern. Sometimes that number is "impossible" in that it is way more than one believes they could get for the product. When that happens, you have to take a serious look at whether or not you're looking at a hobby or a business. It is always difficult to see these sorts of discussions after they have been had, especially when there was information that could have been developed earlier on that would have informed the decision, but it is not uncommon.
- joycian 8y ago
  From what I have gathered from mathematician friends, they are catching on to CoCalc. I for one think it has promise. Especially with the dominance of Python in CS department intro classes, a Sage-based math environment for math classes (e.g. abstract algebra / group theory) seems sensible. Once those programmes start adopting it, you are good to go.
  - jimbokun 8y ago
    But how much are they willing to pay?
    - williamstein 8y ago
      (I'm the OP.) Quick answer: "about $15/student". Our pricing page is here https://cocalc.com/policies/pricing.html https://cocalc.com/policies/pricing.html, and people and institutions do regularly sign up for all the subscriptions and packages listed there. They were all created based on demand from users. We get a handful of new courses each week, and few individual subscriptions each day, though volume depends a lot on the academic cycle. One of the reasons I'm confident to resign from my UW job is that the business aspects of CoCalc are definitely working.
      - ianai 8y ago
        I don’t see income figures for you from this. But a general rule is your salary is only a fraction of the total cost of your position to the organization after all the overhead costs are included. We’re talking 3x-7x your yearly salary. So ask yourself whether getting 7x your income is what you’re getting from this the year after you resign. And because you’re tenured, that needs to be a long term demand that won’t go away. Edit-I don’t see any of the above in your product/write up. Further, I used the high end of the coverage range as professor positions usually have good benefits. Stuff is expensive individually.
- ianai 8y ago
  I agree with hiring a CFO. It’ll cost more in the short term but could pay off in the medium to long term like you say.
qwerty456127 8y ago
> In many fields competition for tenure is brutal Why so? There are so many people who would like to study but can't get into an university. There (as you say) are so many professors who would like to teach but also get into brutal competition. Why not just build more universities? Also why not start a private education company that probably wouldn't be eligible to issue government-accredited degrees (who but medical doctors and lawyers needs them anyway?) yet would provide university-level education quality and compete the free-market way?
- moftz 8y ago
  Not many companies are going to hire an engineer from a non-accredited university. Sometimes it is specifically called out in the job posting. Accreditation is there for a reason, otherwise you end up with a bunch of people with degrees from diploma mills and ITT-like organizations applying for jobs they have no business being in.
  - qwerty456127 8y ago
    Perhaps but a particular private company can establish reputation that would ensure whoever graduates from it actually has acquired the knowledge and skills listed. In fact I even believe that teaching and skill/knowledge-certifying companies should be separated entirely. A person should be able to acquire knowledge whatever way they find comfortable (e.g. choose a company that would teach them or study entirely on themselves if they are sufficiently resourceful) then go to a reputable institution that would test them and issue a diploma.
    - moftz 8y ago
      Who is going to want to attend a school with zero reputation
      - qwerty456127 8y ago
        When its job is to teach rather than to issue a diploma which other parties would recognize, attending a couple of lectures would be enough for me to see how well do they teach if it's worth my money. There should also be money-back warranty for those unsatisfied with the quality of teaching. At some point, if I were satisfied, I would also recommend it to people I know and such a recommendation would be enough for me to give it a try if I were them. Measuring such a subject by thyself may seem like a fallacy as many people obviously don't think like I do but I believe there are many (a number sufficient to sustain a business) who do think the same way in such a big country.
tlarkworthy 8y ago
That said, even if it fails the next stop would be FAANG and that's where talented programmers are that are impossible to find in academia. A few years later, richer than academia could ever provide (I left academia and did not regret it)
- wolco 8y ago
  He is probably too old for a faang.
  - webmaven 8y ago
    > He is probably too old for a faang. [many expletives later] Really? REALLY?
    - wolco 8y ago
      Seven of 18 largest tech companies have a median employee age of 30 or younger.
      - codingdave 8y ago
        Which means that 11 of 18 do not.
        webmaven 8y ago
        Thank you for pointing this out.
        wolco 8y ago
        The average age at google is 41. But the average age hired is lower than 30. The whiteboard /stanford/group hire filters helps ensure only the best past a certain age has a chance.
        webmaven 8y ago
        "Only the best past a certain age"? Google's own research shows no correlation between "elite school" or "grade average" filters and job performance. Their hiring comittees (from which the hiring manager is excluded) also make decisions while blinded to factors such as age, race, and gender.
williamstein 8y ago
> 1. (OP here) I doubt I could easily get a tenured position somewhere else today, because I have not published much in the last few years, due to focusing on CoCalc. I also I have a 2-body problem (my wife is an academic), which would make getting another position in academia that much harder. > 2. Do you still need money? Yes. In fact, I didn't save enough as a college math professor to retire while living in Seattle (an expensive place)! > The fact that the company is not ramen profitable in 7 years The company is not profitable, but it is "ramen profitable" according to http://www.paulgraham.com/ramenprofitable.html http://www.paulgraham.com/ramenprofitable.html. Without getting into details, the bank balance goes down a little each month since we pay hosting and for four fulltime employees (we have about 2 years of runway). However, we're close to profitable. If we instead had only three employees (or paid ourselves less), then we would be profitable. If we had just one employee (me), then I would be making a LOT more money than I made working at UW, though I would likely be much less happy (the other three people working on CoCalc are fantastic!).
- ianai 8y ago
  Do not leave that tenured position!! The market has been pumped up so hard that you should be making stability-reinforcing life choices. There’s also just nothing comparable to the benefits of being a tenured professor in the modern labor market short of winning the lottery. Find a way to make it work with fewer people or look for other ways to increase your revenue/demand.
  - williamstein 8y ago
    > There’s also just nothing comparable to the benefits of being a tenured professor in the modern labor market short of winning the lottery. Having a few million dollars in the bank is comparable to being a tenured professor, at least in terms of guaranteed income. (Of course, I don't have millions of dollars in the bank.) Maybe that's what you meant by "winning the lottery", e.g., that phrase is sometimes used to refer to startup founders who sell their company.
    - ianai 8y ago

by ptero 8y ago

ChuckMcM 8y ago

> The fact that the company is not ramen profitable in 7 years (including last 3 years of dedicated effort) means it may not be a source of income for a while. This is always a flag for me for something that needs to be investigated. Personally I think the idea the guy took to stick with CoCalc was interesting but at the same time he should really really consider hiring a CFO, someone who really understands where the money comes in and how it goes out. Such a person could tell him exactly how much "lifetime value" is needed from each customer in order to make the company a going concern. Sometimes that number is "impossible" in that it is way more than one believes they could get for the product. When that happens, you have to take a serious look at whether or not you're looking at a hobby or a business. It is always difficult to see these sorts of discussions after they have been had, especially when there was information that could have been developed earlier on that would have informed the decision, but it is not uncommon.

joycian 8y ago
From what I have gathered from mathematician friends, they are catching on to CoCalc. I for one think it has promise. Especially with the dominance of Python in CS department intro classes, a Sage-based math environment for math classes (e.g. abstract algebra / group theory) seems sensible. Once those programmes start adopting it, you are good to go.
- jimbokun 8y ago
  But how much are they willing to pay?
  - williamstein 8y ago
    (I'm the OP.) Quick answer: "about $15/student". Our pricing page is here https://cocalc.com/policies/pricing.html https://cocalc.com/policies/pricing.html, and people and institutions do regularly sign up for all the subscriptions and packages listed there. They were all created based on demand from users. We get a handful of new courses each week, and few individual subscriptions each day, though volume depends a lot on the academic cycle. One of the reasons I'm confident to resign from my UW job is that the business aspects of CoCalc are definitely working.
    - ianai 8y ago
      I don’t see income figures for you from this. But a general rule is your salary is only a fraction of the total cost of your position to the organization after all the overhead costs are included. We’re talking 3x-7x your yearly salary. So ask yourself whether getting 7x your income is what you’re getting from this the year after you resign. And because you’re tenured, that needs to be a long term demand that won’t go away. Edit-I don’t see any of the above in your product/write up. Further, I used the high end of the coverage range as professor positions usually have good benefits. Stuff is expensive individually.
ianai 8y ago
I agree with hiring a CFO. It’ll cost more in the short term but could pay off in the medium to long term like you say.

qwerty456127 8y ago

> In many fields competition for tenure is brutal Why so? There are so many people who would like to study but can't get into an university. There (as you say) are so many professors who would like to teach but also get into brutal competition. Why not just build more universities? Also why not start a private education company that probably wouldn't be eligible to issue government-accredited degrees (who but medical doctors and lawyers needs them anyway?) yet would provide university-level education quality and compete the free-market way?

moftz 8y ago
Not many companies are going to hire an engineer from a non-accredited university. Sometimes it is specifically called out in the job posting. Accreditation is there for a reason, otherwise you end up with a bunch of people with degrees from diploma mills and ITT-like organizations applying for jobs they have no business being in.
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  Perhaps but a particular private company can establish reputation that would ensure whoever graduates from it actually has acquired the knowledge and skills listed. In fact I even believe that teaching and skill/knowledge-certifying companies should be separated entirely. A person should be able to acquire knowledge whatever way they find comfortable (e.g. choose a company that would teach them or study entirely on themselves if they are sufficiently resourceful) then go to a reputable institution that would test them and issue a diploma.
  - moftz 8y ago
    Who is going to want to attend a school with zero reputation
    - qwerty456127 8y ago
      When its job is to teach rather than to issue a diploma which other parties would recognize, attending a couple of lectures would be enough for me to see how well do they teach if it's worth my money. There should also be money-back warranty for those unsatisfied with the quality of teaching. At some point, if I were satisfied, I would also recommend it to people I know and such a recommendation would be enough for me to give it a try if I were them. Measuring such a subject by thyself may seem like a fallacy as many people obviously don't think like I do but I believe there are many (a number sufficient to sustain a business) who do think the same way in such a big country.

tlarkworthy 8y ago

That said, even if it fails the next stop would be FAANG and that's where talented programmers are that are impossible to find in academia. A few years later, richer than academia could ever provide (I left academia and did not regret it)

wolco 8y ago
He is probably too old for a faang.
- webmaven 8y ago
  > He is probably too old for a faang. [many expletives later] Really? REALLY?
  - wolco 8y ago
    Seven of 18 largest tech companies have a median employee age of 30 or younger.
    - codingdave 8y ago
      Which means that 11 of 18 do not.
      - webmaven 8y ago
        Thank you for pointing this out.
      - wolco 8y ago
        The average age at google is 41. But the average age hired is lower than 30. The whiteboard /stanford/group hire filters helps ensure only the best past a certain age has a chance.
        webmaven 8y ago
        "Only the best past a certain age"? Google's own research shows no correlation between "elite school" or "grade average" filters and job performance. Their hiring comittees (from which the hiring manager is excluded) also make decisions while blinded to factors such as age, race, and gender.

williamstein 8y ago

> 1. (OP here) I doubt I could easily get a tenured position somewhere else today, because I have not published much in the last few years, due to focusing on CoCalc. I also I have a 2-body problem (my wife is an academic), which would make getting another position in academia that much harder. > 2. Do you still need money? Yes. In fact, I didn't save enough as a college math professor to retire while living in Seattle (an expensive place)! > The fact that the company is not ramen profitable in 7 years The company is not profitable, but it is "ramen profitable" according to http://www.paulgraham.com/ramenprofitable.html http://www.paulgraham.com/ramenprofitable.html. Without getting into details, the bank balance goes down a little each month since we pay hosting and for four fulltime employees (we have about 2 years of runway). However, we're close to profitable. If we instead had only three employees (or paid ourselves less), then we would be profitable. If we had just one employee (me), then I would be making a LOT more money than I made working at UW, though I would likely be much less happy (the other three people working on CoCalc are fantastic!).

ianai 8y ago
Do not leave that tenured position!! The market has been pumped up so hard that you should be making stability-reinforcing life choices. There’s also just nothing comparable to the benefits of being a tenured professor in the modern labor market short of winning the lottery. Find a way to make it work with fewer people or look for other ways to increase your revenue/demand.
- williamstein 8y ago
  > There’s also just nothing comparable to the benefits of being a tenured professor in the modern labor market short of winning the lottery. Having a few million dollars in the bank is comparable to being a tenured professor, at least in terms of guaranteed income. (Of course, I don't have millions of dollars in the bank.) Maybe that's what you meant by "winning the lottery", e.g., that phrase is sometimes used to refer to startup founders who sell their company.
  - ianai 8y ago