5 ms·

Back in the neolithic (1972), when I applied to college, most kids seemed to apply to two or three colleges at most. I'm not sure I even completed two applicati

by cafard 8y ago

Back in the neolithic (1972), when I applied to college, most kids seemed to apply to two or three colleges at most. I'm not sure I even completed two applications. In the fall of 2006, my son was threatened with Saturday detention if he didn't have three safety school applications completed by the date the counselor preferred. He ended up applying to eight that I recall. A kid a year or so ahead of him at the same school applied to fourteen or eighteen. So if kids are encouraged to step up their applications to about 4x that of the boomers, will that not drive acceptance rates now? [Edit--added dates.]

kd5bjo 8y ago
Presumably, except at the boundary conditions, an increase in the number of applications per student comes with a corresponding decrease in the percentage of accepted applications that result in a student actually showing up to the university— in the end every student still picks only one to actually attend. These should mostly cancel out and keep the university’s acceptance rate (offers extended per application received) about the same.
- ThrustVectoring 8y ago
  This is only true if you ignore the average rank preference of the school among applicants. Better-ranked college won't see as much decline in acceptance percentage, while worse-ranked colleges will see more than the expected decline. Some of the ways colleges can combat this on their own is by trying to jump the rest of the system through early admission (that creeps earlier and earlier over time), or by giving out exploding offers (I don't think this is nearly as common). The solution is to go to a deferred-acceptance algorithm such as Gale-Shapley. It's a relatively minor change, adding a third party that matches students to colleges algorithmically. The students send in a rank-ordering of the colleges they wish to attend, and colleges send in a rank-ordering of which students they'd prefer to admit (along with quantity). The students get their most-preferred college that likes them enough to admit them over others, and the colleges run zero risk of sending out too many offers.
- busyant 8y ago
  >These should mostly cancel out and keep the university’s acceptance rate (offers extended per application received) about the same. I agree w/ your argument, but there are probably other factors that have changed w/ college applications. The article seems to disagree w/ my point below, but from my anecdotal vantagepoint, I think there is a kernel of truth to my opinion: I see many 2nd and 3rd tier schools near me (I'm in the eastern US) opening themselves up to foreign undergrads. I don't know the reason for this, but my suspicion is that these schools need to stave off the onslaught from entities like Coursera and edX. As such, they are trawling from bodies, wherever they can get them. I've met numerous foreign undergrads who can barely speak English and my thought is usually "How could the University of _______ accept you in good conscience and move you toward graduation when you can't even understand your lecturers?" e.g., I taught a class at a local university a few years ago. Class saw an influx of students from 1 particular country over a few years. Most of the foreign students from this country could barely speak English and it was obvious from "pop" quizzes that they didn't understand the material (which is understandable if you can't understand the language). They all tried to cheat on the exams (using a remarkably elaborate scheme). Eventually, I figured it out and I failed them. The mastermind emailed me and said that he knew he did not deserve to pass, but if he failed he would need an additional semester to complete his engineering degree.[1] IMO, the university behaved unethically by admitting these students into a system that they are not equipped to legitimately succeed in. Anyway, I assume that if you increase your applicant pool from outside the US, the acceptance rates will drop--at least for a little while. I know that's not the only reason for the drop, but it might be part of the issue. [1] After that, I stopped getting students from that country in my class.
  - kaitai 8y ago
    It's not Coursera and EdX. It's that foreign students pay full price. As administrative costs increase and infrastructure costs increase and state contributions decrease if there ever were any, the money needs to come from somewhere.
    - busyant 8y ago
      Good point. Thank you.
- bluGill 8y ago
  It isn't that easy for a university. There is always the danger that more students accept their offer then expected and your classrooms are not big enough for the larger class. There are enough universities around that statistically we can expect if they all just increased their offers made rate some would get too many students attending the next fall every year.
astura 8y ago
I'm older than your son but my guidance councilor tried to pull that "you can't apply to only one school" routine with me. I told him to piss off (nicely) and sign my application (it had to be signed by him).
cblum 8y ago
What is “Saturday detention”? That sounds awful.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  It’s where you have to go to school for detention session on a Saturday morning. In school is detention during school hours (popular in the south), out of school is just not being able to come to school.
  - asark 8y ago
    Notably, out of school detention is punishment aimed at the student's parents, not at the student, in most cases. Rarely a student who actually cares about school and their grades will receive it as punishment, and even more rarely this will be for non-BS (political) reasons. Good students can avoid BS (and much non-BS) punishment by being on a sports team, the more important (well-funded), the better, and the more important their role on it, the better. School in the US is weird.
- estebank 8y ago
  Watch The Breakfast Club for a primer. From what I can tell it's only a thing in the US, and before moving here I thought it was, like many other things, just a literary device. Alas it's real.
icedchai 8y ago
That's horrible for your son! I was in the top 2% of my class and applied to one college, under early acceptance. This was back in the mid-90's.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Early 90s, applied to just one university (the one closest to where I was living) and got in. Only later did I realize how lucky I got (a good public university with a low acceptance rate) since I was very naive and my parents were of very little help.
umanwizard 8y ago
I don’t know what kind of bizarre school your son went to, but I graduated HS in 2009 and nobody was forcing me to apply anywhere or threatening me if I didn’t.
- cafard 8y ago
  The school is I think less neurotic than many in our area (prosperous, urban), and the parents vastly saner than those described by Caitlin Flanagan in her article in The Atlantic.

by cafard 8y ago

kd5bjo 8y ago

Presumably, except at the boundary conditions, an increase in the number of applications per student comes with a corresponding decrease in the percentage of accepted applications that result in a student actually showing up to the university— in the end every student still picks only one to actually attend. These should mostly cancel out and keep the university’s acceptance rate (offers extended per application received) about the same.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago
This is only true if you ignore the average rank preference of the school among applicants. Better-ranked college won't see as much decline in acceptance percentage, while worse-ranked colleges will see more than the expected decline. Some of the ways colleges can combat this on their own is by trying to jump the rest of the system through early admission (that creeps earlier and earlier over time), or by giving out exploding offers (I don't think this is nearly as common). The solution is to go to a deferred-acceptance algorithm such as Gale-Shapley. It's a relatively minor change, adding a third party that matches students to colleges algorithmically. The students send in a rank-ordering of the colleges they wish to attend, and colleges send in a rank-ordering of which students they'd prefer to admit (along with quantity). The students get their most-preferred college that likes them enough to admit them over others, and the colleges run zero risk of sending out too many offers.
busyant 8y ago
>These should mostly cancel out and keep the university’s acceptance rate (offers extended per application received) about the same. I agree w/ your argument, but there are probably other factors that have changed w/ college applications. The article seems to disagree w/ my point below, but from my anecdotal vantagepoint, I think there is a kernel of truth to my opinion: I see many 2nd and 3rd tier schools near me (I'm in the eastern US) opening themselves up to foreign undergrads. I don't know the reason for this, but my suspicion is that these schools need to stave off the onslaught from entities like Coursera and edX. As such, they are trawling from bodies, wherever they can get them. I've met numerous foreign undergrads who can barely speak English and my thought is usually "How could the University of _______ accept you in good conscience and move you toward graduation when you can't even understand your lecturers?" e.g., I taught a class at a local university a few years ago. Class saw an influx of students from 1 particular country over a few years. Most of the foreign students from this country could barely speak English and it was obvious from "pop" quizzes that they didn't understand the material (which is understandable if you can't understand the language). They all tried to cheat on the exams (using a remarkably elaborate scheme). Eventually, I figured it out and I failed them. The mastermind emailed me and said that he knew he did not deserve to pass, but if he failed he would need an additional semester to complete his engineering degree.[1] IMO, the university behaved unethically by admitting these students into a system that they are not equipped to legitimately succeed in. Anyway, I assume that if you increase your applicant pool from outside the US, the acceptance rates will drop--at least for a little while. I know that's not the only reason for the drop, but it might be part of the issue. [1] After that, I stopped getting students from that country in my class.
- kaitai 8y ago
  It's not Coursera and EdX. It's that foreign students pay full price. As administrative costs increase and infrastructure costs increase and state contributions decrease if there ever were any, the money needs to come from somewhere.
  - busyant 8y ago
    Good point. Thank you.
bluGill 8y ago
It isn't that easy for a university. There is always the danger that more students accept their offer then expected and your classrooms are not big enough for the larger class. There are enough universities around that statistically we can expect if they all just increased their offers made rate some would get too many students attending the next fall every year.

astura 8y ago

I'm older than your son but my guidance councilor tried to pull that "you can't apply to only one school" routine with me. I told him to piss off (nicely) and sign my application (it had to be signed by him).

cblum 8y ago

What is “Saturday detention”? That sounds awful.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
It’s where you have to go to school for detention session on a Saturday morning. In school is detention during school hours (popular in the south), out of school is just not being able to come to school.
- asark 8y ago
  Notably, out of school detention is punishment aimed at the student's parents, not at the student, in most cases. Rarely a student who actually cares about school and their grades will receive it as punishment, and even more rarely this will be for non-BS (political) reasons. Good students can avoid BS (and much non-BS) punishment by being on a sports team, the more important (well-funded), the better, and the more important their role on it, the better. School in the US is weird.
estebank 8y ago
Watch The Breakfast Club for a primer. From what I can tell it's only a thing in the US, and before moving here I thought it was, like many other things, just a literary device. Alas it's real.

icedchai 8y ago

That's horrible for your son! I was in the top 2% of my class and applied to one college, under early acceptance. This was back in the mid-90's.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Early 90s, applied to just one university (the one closest to where I was living) and got in. Only later did I realize how lucky I got (a good public university with a low acceptance rate) since I was very naive and my parents were of very little help.

umanwizard 8y ago

I don’t know what kind of bizarre school your son went to, but I graduated HS in 2009 and nobody was forcing me to apply anywhere or threatening me if I didn’t.

cafard 8y ago
The school is I think less neurotic than many in our area (prosperous, urban), and the parents vastly saner than those described by Caitlin Flanagan in her article in The Atlantic.