6 ms·

In China, tattoos border on illegal – and they're his life's work

51 points by petethomas 8y ago

SEJeff 8y ago
Before reading the article, I was thinking that many Triads tattoo women in their family with large dragon tattoos (I dated one of these girls when her family moved to Los Angeles). It was weirdly explained to me that if a man tried to hurt her and saw those tattoos he would be afraid of the Triad and leave her alone. I found the entire concept a bit repulsive, but it isn't my culture. The article's claim that tattoos are associated with gangsters lines up with this.
- Farradfahren 8y ago
  We live in such a risc-reality decapsulated world here in the west, that risc affinity is fashionable. Thus tatoos, hip-hop and military "tactical" fashion are all the rage. Wonder why police badges and fireman helmets are not fashionable.
- duncan-donuts 8y ago
  The history of tattooing is vast, as with any subculture. There's a lot of history with bikers, gangs, tribes, artists, healers, etc. You should read about the history of Russian prison tattoos[1]. I'm biased because I am a tattooed person. All that being said tattooing isn't just for gangsters. Humans have a long history of marking their bodies permanently[2]. 1) https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9bzvbp/russian-criminal-tattoo-fuel-damon-murray-interview-876 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9bzvbp/russian-criminal-t... 2) https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/tattoos-144038580/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/tattoos-144038580/
forkLding 8y ago
Tattoos are generally stigmatized in most of East Asia: China, Korea, Japan and cultures affected by these countries. Although there are some ties to the past with tattoos predominantly being used by outlaws, criminals, prisoners, slaves (prisoners and slaves were branded with tattoos on the face to ensure people knew who they were and was also considered a punishment of its own) or soldiers (in certain periods of history, soldiers weren't respected in China and considered a lowly job as there was a high chance of death and they often were involved in pillaging in the more chaotic times), modern-day stigma is from criminals and gangsters who would use tattoos to differentiate themselves and show themselves as "hard and not to be messed with" or to inspire courage within themselves. Nowadays its a bit more relaxed but even now people will hide tattoos in job interviews because it can mean an automatic rejection.
- kibwen 8y ago
  Note that despite the fact that tattoos are rather normalized in the West, the default stance is still to hide them during job interviews, with varying degrees of leniency depending on industry and region (e.g. Microsoft probably doesn't care if its programmers are tattooed, though it will for its corporate salespeople).
  - mises 8y ago
    Many tech companies may not care about their programmers, but many others still care if anyone in any position has anything visible.
    - HillRat 8y ago
      There does appear to be a normalization going on, though; in my line of work (F500 consulting), I’ve seen multiple examples of prominent tattoos on both the consultant and client/buyer side (mostly tribal sleeve/neck ink on men). It’s still unusual enough to remark on, but I suspect in a decade or so will either be completely unremarkable, or else the slightly-embarrassing if harmless remnants of a dated fad.
      - mises 8y ago
        Given the health risks, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Many pigments are made out of heavy metals [0], and while it might have immune benefits, it's for the same reason as bee stings (a minor irritant that keeps it on its toes). The difference is that bee stings don't contain heavy metals. They've also struck me as a bit tacky (like most other fads), the difference of course being that they're permanent. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tattoo-ink-mercury-and-other-toxins/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tattoo-ink-mercur...
        moate 8y ago
        >>Given the health risks, I'm not sure that's a good thing There's also "health risks" in going to a restaurant, or storing bleach in your home. You show me a study that gives a marked decline in health or life expectancy among heavily tattooed individuals, or else this is just some low quality fear mongering. >>(like most other fads) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tattooing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tattooing I think judging people is extremely tacky, especially when you do so in a way that makes you sound poorly informed about the subject matter. We get it, you don't like tattoos or how they look. That's really your problem though, nobody else's. Policing other people's bodies is a bad look.
vichu 8y ago
In South Korea, tattoos are illegal, but it hasn't stopped artists from creating - and creating some truly beautiful work. Tattoos have become relatively mainstream and millennials (though I hate the term) have widely adopted tattoos as commonplace. It's striking to see the cultural differences between East Asia and the western world, perception around tattoos being just one of them. Tattoos are particularly interesting because of the influence Asian artists have had on the culture and ethos of the art despite the widespread suppression of it. I'd love to hear a perspective on why it's evolved to be so different - and I do suspect it has to do with organized crime playing a large part (i.e. the Yakuza and the Triads).
- justaguyhere 8y ago
  I am not a fan of tattoos, but what is the rationale behind banning tattoos?
  - forkLding 8y ago
    I would guess it is because to East asian authorities, you would only be getting a tattoo if you were being initiated in a gang or wanted to engage in outlaw activities, so stopping tattoos is indirectly stopping "outlawry" and thus preserving "morality" in society.
    - umvi 8y ago
      Probably similar to how schools in certain states ban red/blue bandannas or other gang-related artifacts
- gdhbcc 8y ago
  Tattoos are not illegal in South Korea, neither having them or making them is illegal. It is simply classified as a form of acupuncture and regulated accordingly.
  - nomnomray 8y ago
    While tattooing is technically illegal in South Korea... [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattooing_in_South_Korea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattooing_in_South_Korea
Simulacra 8y ago
My husband used to work at one of the top lobbying firms in Washington DC. He told me they had a standing rule that if they saw a tattoo on someone, unless they were a former member of Congress or some very high ranking staff person, they wouldn’t hire them. Not even for the internship program. There was paranoia that the wrong tattoo could scare off a potential client.
- vernie 8y ago
  You mean to tell me that lobbyists aren't cool and easy-going?
wensheng 8y ago
I don't understand tattoo, it's like wearing the same cloth (i.e. a T-shirt) every day, for the rest of your life. I do think there's market for more colorful, longer lasting temporary tattoos. (Might be a startup idea for ya)
- klinskyc 8y ago
  Ephemeral - https://www.ephemeraltattoos.com/ https://www.ephemeraltattoos.com/ - is basically doing that
- wishinghand 8y ago
  Just as there's a reason for constants in math and programming, it can be pleasing to have them on your body as well.
- honkycat 8y ago
  Why do we cut our hair, trim our beards, make music, pierce our ears or wear clothing? None of these things are strictly necessary. The Ancient European Picts, Mayans, Native Northern Americans, Polynesian islanders, all of these humans were HEAVILY tattooed, often with ritual significance. Tattoos are an ancient human art form. Ötzi the iceman had visible tattoos. It is a way to memorialize the past and express yourself.
- MisterTea 8y ago
  If using that line of logic, Do you also complain that you can't change your face? Tattoos are an extension of your identity that you get to customize to your liking. The art is an expression of who you are and your body is the canvas. Of course you might think it not necessary or pleasent but to quote The Dude: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." Personally I don't have any but If I did they would tell a story about me. And that story is my identity, my brand. You can then experiment with clothing that reveals different things if you like. I have a few friends that get deep into the art and fashion they use to accentuate them. It does have an appeal and to some looks attractive. YMMV, etc.
- duncan-donuts 8y ago
  That’s fair to not get it. Being tattooed isn’t for everyone. I’ve wanted to be tattooed since I was 12. Not really sure why other than I was drawn to it. I’m 30 now and have about 30% of my body tattooed and have no plans to stop. To address the potential startup — there are a handful of companies that sell temporary tattoos that last for several weeks, but they tend to favor trendy things (think infinity symbols, tribal (not really trendy anymore), and simple blackwork). I did see toddlertattoos[1] today, and those look really great. The biggest barrier to entry is the industry itself. It’s incredibly inclusive, closed off, and reputation based. I don’t think a person who doesn’t have a huge reputation in tattooing could make it work. 1) https://toddlertattoos.com/ https://toddlertattoos.com/
HAL9000Ti 8y ago
Look guys I don't know what's going on with all these China news but as a european who's lived in china several years, a lot of it seems wrong. I was in south China for a year recently and many people had visible tattoos, just as many as west europeans. And nobody cared. At all.
- honkycat 8y ago
  A bit of a mirror version of people's assumption that southerners in the United States all talk with a drawl and wear cowboy hats.
- ummonk 8y ago
  Thanks. I’ve never been to China, but was rather surprised by the headline here. I can believe it with Japanese or Koreans, but my impression is that Chinese culture tends to be pretty chill about these sorts of things.
- natmaka 8y ago
  I live in Shanghai since 201708 and visible tattoos are not rare on people aged 20 to 30 (men and women).
jokoon 8y ago
Fix that title
wholien 8y ago
Lived in Shanghai for a long time. There are more and more people getting visible tattoos. > "Even now, it is rare to see tattoos in the street or public life." Maybe in smaller towns but it's pretty prevalent in Shanghai, Beijing etc.

51 points by petethomas 8y ago

Before reading the article, I was thinking that many Triads tattoo women in their family with large dragon tattoos (I dated one of these girls when her family moved to Los Angeles). It was weirdly explained to me that if a man tried to hurt her and saw those tattoos he would be afraid of the Triad and leave her alone. I found the entire concept a bit repulsive, but it isn't my culture. The article's claim that tattoos are associated with gangsters lines up with this.

Farradfahren 8y ago
We live in such a risc-reality decapsulated world here in the west, that risc affinity is fashionable. Thus tatoos, hip-hop and military "tactical" fashion are all the rage. Wonder why police badges and fireman helmets are not fashionable.
duncan-donuts 8y ago
The history of tattooing is vast, as with any subculture. There's a lot of history with bikers, gangs, tribes, artists, healers, etc. You should read about the history of Russian prison tattoos[1]. I'm biased because I am a tattooed person. All that being said tattooing isn't just for gangsters. Humans have a long history of marking their bodies permanently[2]. 1) https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9bzvbp/russian-criminal-tattoo-fuel-damon-murray-interview-876 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9bzvbp/russian-criminal-t... 2) https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/tattoos-144038580/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/tattoos-144038580/

forkLding 8y ago

Tattoos are generally stigmatized in most of East Asia: China, Korea, Japan and cultures affected by these countries. Although there are some ties to the past with tattoos predominantly being used by outlaws, criminals, prisoners, slaves (prisoners and slaves were branded with tattoos on the face to ensure people knew who they were and was also considered a punishment of its own) or soldiers (in certain periods of history, soldiers weren't respected in China and considered a lowly job as there was a high chance of death and they often were involved in pillaging in the more chaotic times), modern-day stigma is from criminals and gangsters who would use tattoos to differentiate themselves and show themselves as "hard and not to be messed with" or to inspire courage within themselves. Nowadays its a bit more relaxed but even now people will hide tattoos in job interviews because it can mean an automatic rejection.

kibwen 8y ago
Note that despite the fact that tattoos are rather normalized in the West, the default stance is still to hide them during job interviews, with varying degrees of leniency depending on industry and region (e.g. Microsoft probably doesn't care if its programmers are tattooed, though it will for its corporate salespeople).
- mises 8y ago
  Many tech companies may not care about their programmers, but many others still care if anyone in any position has anything visible.
  - HillRat 8y ago
    There does appear to be a normalization going on, though; in my line of work (F500 consulting), I’ve seen multiple examples of prominent tattoos on both the consultant and client/buyer side (mostly tribal sleeve/neck ink on men). It’s still unusual enough to remark on, but I suspect in a decade or so will either be completely unremarkable, or else the slightly-embarrassing if harmless remnants of a dated fad.
    - mises 8y ago
      Given the health risks, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Many pigments are made out of heavy metals [0], and while it might have immune benefits, it's for the same reason as bee stings (a minor irritant that keeps it on its toes). The difference is that bee stings don't contain heavy metals. They've also struck me as a bit tacky (like most other fads), the difference of course being that they're permanent. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tattoo-ink-mercury-and-other-toxins/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tattoo-ink-mercur...
      - moate 8y ago
        >>Given the health risks, I'm not sure that's a good thing There's also "health risks" in going to a restaurant, or storing bleach in your home. You show me a study that gives a marked decline in health or life expectancy among heavily tattooed individuals, or else this is just some low quality fear mongering. >>(like most other fads) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tattooing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tattooing I think judging people is extremely tacky, especially when you do so in a way that makes you sound poorly informed about the subject matter. We get it, you don't like tattoos or how they look. That's really your problem though, nobody else's. Policing other people's bodies is a bad look.

vichu 8y ago

In South Korea, tattoos are illegal, but it hasn't stopped artists from creating - and creating some truly beautiful work. Tattoos have become relatively mainstream and millennials (though I hate the term) have widely adopted tattoos as commonplace. It's striking to see the cultural differences between East Asia and the western world, perception around tattoos being just one of them. Tattoos are particularly interesting because of the influence Asian artists have had on the culture and ethos of the art despite the widespread suppression of it. I'd love to hear a perspective on why it's evolved to be so different - and I do suspect it has to do with organized crime playing a large part (i.e. the Yakuza and the Triads).

justaguyhere 8y ago
I am not a fan of tattoos, but what is the rationale behind banning tattoos?
- forkLding 8y ago
  I would guess it is because to East asian authorities, you would only be getting a tattoo if you were being initiated in a gang or wanted to engage in outlaw activities, so stopping tattoos is indirectly stopping "outlawry" and thus preserving "morality" in society.
  - umvi 8y ago
    Probably similar to how schools in certain states ban red/blue bandannas or other gang-related artifacts
gdhbcc 8y ago
Tattoos are not illegal in South Korea, neither having them or making them is illegal. It is simply classified as a form of acupuncture and regulated accordingly.
- nomnomray 8y ago
  While tattooing is technically illegal in South Korea... [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattooing_in_South_Korea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattooing_in_South_Korea

Simulacra 8y ago

My husband used to work at one of the top lobbying firms in Washington DC. He told me they had a standing rule that if they saw a tattoo on someone, unless they were a former member of Congress or some very high ranking staff person, they wouldn’t hire them. Not even for the internship program. There was paranoia that the wrong tattoo could scare off a potential client.

vernie 8y ago
You mean to tell me that lobbyists aren't cool and easy-going?

wensheng 8y ago

I don't understand tattoo, it's like wearing the same cloth (i.e. a T-shirt) every day, for the rest of your life. I do think there's market for more colorful, longer lasting temporary tattoos. (Might be a startup idea for ya)

klinskyc 8y ago
Ephemeral - https://www.ephemeraltattoos.com/ https://www.ephemeraltattoos.com/ - is basically doing that
wishinghand 8y ago
Just as there's a reason for constants in math and programming, it can be pleasing to have them on your body as well.
honkycat 8y ago
Why do we cut our hair, trim our beards, make music, pierce our ears or wear clothing? None of these things are strictly necessary. The Ancient European Picts, Mayans, Native Northern Americans, Polynesian islanders, all of these humans were HEAVILY tattooed, often with ritual significance. Tattoos are an ancient human art form. Ötzi the iceman had visible tattoos. It is a way to memorialize the past and express yourself.
MisterTea 8y ago
If using that line of logic, Do you also complain that you can't change your face? Tattoos are an extension of your identity that you get to customize to your liking. The art is an expression of who you are and your body is the canvas. Of course you might think it not necessary or pleasent but to quote The Dude: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." Personally I don't have any but If I did they would tell a story about me. And that story is my identity, my brand. You can then experiment with clothing that reveals different things if you like. I have a few friends that get deep into the art and fashion they use to accentuate them. It does have an appeal and to some looks attractive. YMMV, etc.
duncan-donuts 8y ago
That’s fair to not get it. Being tattooed isn’t for everyone. I’ve wanted to be tattooed since I was 12. Not really sure why other than I was drawn to it. I’m 30 now and have about 30% of my body tattooed and have no plans to stop. To address the potential startup — there are a handful of companies that sell temporary tattoos that last for several weeks, but they tend to favor trendy things (think infinity symbols, tribal (not really trendy anymore), and simple blackwork). I did see toddlertattoos[1] today, and those look really great. The biggest barrier to entry is the industry itself. It’s incredibly inclusive, closed off, and reputation based. I don’t think a person who doesn’t have a huge reputation in tattooing could make it work. 1) https://toddlertattoos.com/ https://toddlertattoos.com/

HAL9000Ti 8y ago

Look guys I don't know what's going on with all these China news but as a european who's lived in china several years, a lot of it seems wrong. I was in south China for a year recently and many people had visible tattoos, just as many as west europeans. And nobody cared. At all.

honkycat 8y ago
A bit of a mirror version of people's assumption that southerners in the United States all talk with a drawl and wear cowboy hats.
ummonk 8y ago
Thanks. I’ve never been to China, but was rather surprised by the headline here. I can believe it with Japanese or Koreans, but my impression is that Chinese culture tends to be pretty chill about these sorts of things.
natmaka 8y ago
I live in Shanghai since 201708 and visible tattoos are not rare on people aged 20 to 30 (men and women).

jokoon 8y ago

Fix that title

wholien 8y ago

Lived in Shanghai for a long time. There are more and more people getting visible tattoos. > "Even now, it is rare to see tattoos in the street or public life." Maybe in smaller towns but it's pretty prevalent in Shanghai, Beijing etc.