8 ms·

The State of American Trade Schools

77 points by wallflower 8y ago

ccwilson10 8y ago
Biased because I work there, but App Academy (coding bootcamp) has been running ISAs (Income Share Agreements) and deferred tuition models for the 6 years we've been around. I'd be shocked if this sort of model doesn't catch on soon and becomes a more de-facto way of monetizing. Pretty similar to trade schools in both form and timing. Purdue started implementing ISAs[1] but they're crazy expensive. Hopefully the university system can get closer to the value of the education instead of a multiplier on the students' results. Minimum payback threshold is also only 20k[2] which is absurdly low. a/A has a higher minimum threshold that seems more humane to me (50k salary for in-person cohorts and 60k for online cohorts). [1] https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html [2] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2018/Q4/purdue-research-foundation-raises-10.2-million-for-back-a-boiler-income-share-agreement-fund-ii.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2018/Q4/purdue-rese...
duxup 8y ago
I changed careers via a coding boot camp. I have highly mixed feelings about how coding boot camps are sold, and run, but I think for some people such short term training could be a sort of new future for trade schools. This could be particularly useful if we're entering an age of sudden disruption as far as jobs and career paths goes where a career that once was might be gone (or greatly diminished) tomorrow. Provided business are willing to recognize and hire those people.
- exelius 8y ago
  The change I see happening now is that many of the jobs people are hoping to “skill up” to are themselves being automated out of existence. A combination of targeted AI and good old-fashioned process automation are going to put a lot of white collar workers out of work; including software developers at the lower end of the skill curve.
  - duxup 8y ago
    Very possible. People go where they think the right path is / they might like. I'm not sure anyone has proven to predict what the right path is yet.
    - exelius 8y ago
      I mean, if I could tell you that I would use it to predict the stock market so I wouldn’t need a job. Of course, the fact that the smartest people in the world do exactly that is in itself part of the problem...
  - walshemj 8y ago
    They where saying that in the 1970's how do you automate even basic front end development of a web site today ?
    - opportune 8y ago
      Make a tool that automatically converts a designer's spec/mockup into a performant webpage with high fidelity? Sounds very hard but certainly possible To be fair there are already a lot of services that do this. They are just so commonplace we don't think of them as automation. And they don't allow super complicated setups so they're definitely not quite there yet in the general case. I'm thinking of Wix, Squarespace, basic wordpress.
      - exelius 8y ago
        Yeah, exactly things like that. The SaaS marketplace became so crowded that companies sought out a wide range of differentiated niches and automated a lot of specific use cases.
      - walshemj 8y ago
        Have you seen the average spec for a website?
    - asark 8y ago
- krisrm 8y ago
  If you don't mind elaborating, what was your experience like with coding boot camp? I entered the profession "traditionally" (via a comp sci degree) so I don't know much about the boot camp experience.
  - duxup 8y ago
    My program was "full time" (5 days a week) for 12 weeks. The camp was through my local university, but really they had bought a snap in program from an outside company. The course was basically front end to back end via, HTML - CSS - JavaScript - Node - React (in that order). There were other items covered but those were the big focus. Little to no CS, CS theory, algorithms or anything like that. IMO it does a good job getting you started in a specific area and a place to keep learning / jump off from. My instructor was great, his assistants were horrendous (couldn't help with anything, seemed disinterested, straight up were terrible at debugging). If someone puts in the extra time (and they make it clear that you HAVE to put in extra time outside of class) a capable person can come out of the camp as IMO, a useful entry level web developer with potential and a good place to learn from. I have kids so my life for that time was basically, class - take care of family - code - sleep ... repeat. Actually I've kinda kept that up for a year now. I had a technical background (network engineer) for a long time and was working with engineering teams and had done some scripting and reading about coding here and there. Even just a little background can help a lot in a a class that throws things at you quickly. Other folks without a technical background could do well too (one was an accountant, another a director of some sort of organization, some worked odd jobs but were capable folks). The catch in my class was that they do NOT filter candidates in any meaningful way and that ws arguably the worst aspect of the class. There was a test but I think it was more of a sales pitch (it was virtually the same test as several other camps in the area). I'd say at least 50% of the class was unemployable, and the worst of it was they were often on everyone's team for group projects. These people were often a net negative impact, they just couldn't do it couldn't finish their own work, and created more issues than helped. I don't look down on them for it, because how do you know if you ... don't know? I think they were brave for trying. But IMO the class should have done evaluations and invited some folks to save them self some time and move on but of course that might involve a partial refund so ... doesn't happen. That might sound like I'm talking smack about folks in order to talk myself up, but having a class with people who are either not trying (shockingly there were those) and / or not capable really disrupts the flow of the class and the amount of material covered. Everyone struggled at various points in the class, but some from week two and then constantly from there on they were so far behind it was never going to click. There's a lot of "everyone can code" out there, it's BS, everyone can write it, but troubleshooting and coding and getting a good outcome is another matter. Despite the negatives I have good memories of the class, it was a great experience. I didn't have a traditional education and I loved going to class every day and working with everyone. I do wish the class had gone about twice as long and filtered out candidates (as someone said, it's a bootcamp, shouldn't people be booted?). I think the bootcamp system can be useful (let's put aside the robots and AI for a bit) but I do worry the companies involved might be so profit driven that they make it ... less useful for society as a whole. One side note, a few students decided to go back to school for a traditional CS degree and they really appreciated their bootcamp experience on top of getting into CS where they felt the theory can get a bit deep and academic. They feel their fellow students (and some professors) maybe can't see the forest through the trees / what they're actually learning as it would apply to actual programming you might do when you apply that theory. I've worked with some great CS grads since graduating and they're good guys, most know way more than I do, but no amount of CS can make up for deciding that "I have no idea what is going on, I'm going to dive into the code and see where it goes until I figure it out." Quite a few just want to ask someone, and then ask, and then ask, and ... I wish I had a CS degree and if it was an option I would do it in a heartbeat, I think it is a far superior path. But I do think the boot camp system "can" work, for the right people.
jalgos_eminator 8y ago
I remember in middle school and high school we were told in no uncertain terms that we should all get 4 year college degrees because they gave the highest lifetime earnings. My high school was lucky enough to have an auto shop in it with a teacher that had been a mechanic/shop owner for years. He told us some good stories and also told us about how much money he made in the industry. I didn't think about it much then because I was dead set on getting an engineering degree, but I've had this feeling about 4 year colleges for a while now. I saw so many people at my state college (~30,000 enrollment) that had absolutely no idea what they wanted to do, lacked the skills to be effective in college, or were in a degree program that had no job opportunities. I saw many of them drop out after 1-2 years, but also saw ones that remained and got their degree. Now they are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with nothing to show for it, and the people who did graduate are in more debt with no good job prospects. It feels like we were lied to about college by all the adults in our lives.
- russh 8y ago
  You weren't lied to, you just dropped the ball.
  - news_to_me 8y ago
    What? How?
  - jalgos_eminator 8y ago
    I got my EE/CS degree and currently work in software development. I was talking about people I knew from my first few years at college and my high school experience. I was still lied to, but it worked great for me because what I wanted to do requires a college degree and compensation is notoriously good.
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 8y ago
      Senior software engineer for 7 years. I don't have a degree. I love this field because it is like a modern day trade. You can teach yourself and you can showcase your skill without a piece of paper.
nimbius 8y ago
I am an engine mechanic for a chain of diesel shops in the Midwest. I hit trade school after age 17 and slid into a nice apprentice program for aspiring automotive mechanics. I can confirm my trade school, a state school, was one of the best decisions I'd ever made. I can also confirm that some of the heaviest weight on my heart is the friends I have that struggle to maintain basic health insurance and employment despite having a biology or chemistry degree. I don't know what the solution is, but I feel bitter about the kids sold down university avenue with nothing to show. So if I could say anything to the kids its this. We are hiring. We are hiring for work you'll be paid well for and a job you can be proud of. Welder, plumber, mechanic, these cannot continue to be four letter words. Talk to your vocational tech schools or your guidance counselor.
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  One question I'd have is how easy is it to get into an apprenticeship program? I have a friend who's working at a dealership driving and shining cars with the hope that after some period he'll become an actual mechanic apprentice, so the situation seems like it's less than a sure thing (my friend had a scare when someone tried to pull scam claiming my friend had dented his car and police report would be filed, which can be bad for a commercial driver).
  - xemdetia 8y ago
    I'm no expert but if you are at a dealership trying to become a mechanic by detailing cars that seems like a weird/longshot unless there is a specific program to take people without certification and apply them to their specialized program from being a porter. I imagine that most people that start off at dealerships probably start off certified or with experience. If I was this person I would ask an independent shop and also a chain shop (Midas, Jiffy Lube) what the best way into the industry was if they don't want to go through trade school and get a basic automotive certification. I feel like dealerships for better or worse generally aren't in the business of training people from scratch (or have stringent requirements from corporate on who they can have service cars for warranty work) unless they have a damn good reason. Then there's also the usual questions you should give your friend: are you sure that this dealership knows you want to become a mechanic? Are they just wanting you to be porter? Are you friendly with the head mechanic and the mechanic staff or are you more friendly with the sales part of the dealership? Does the head mechanic know you want to become an apprentice? Have other porters become apprentice mechanics at this dealership? It also is worth asking if the mechanic's shop is an hourly or flat rate shop. A flat rate shop maybe not be the easiest place to get an apprentice compared to an hourly shop where taking an extra five minutes to explain something is not going to cut another mechanic's pay.
chroem- 8y ago
Here are the wage rates for trades in Washington State. [1] Some highlights from the Seattle area: - Carpenters: $60/hr - Electricians: $75/hr - HVAC Mechanics: $82.50/hr Almost every item on the list pays better than a typical STEM degree. [1] https://fortress.wa.gov/lni/wagelookup/prvWagelookup.aspx https://fortress.wa.gov/lni/wagelookup/prvWagelookup.aspx
- Retric 8y ago
  The major limit on that is it assumes you’re working billable hours. The trades are much less stable than an office job.
  - chroem- 8y ago
    It was only a couple years ago when Boeing was slashing their engineering workforce in Seattle, in a good economy no less, to boost dividends.
    - Retric 8y ago
      That only sounds bad because of how used we are to a steady paycheck. Working a paid 40 hour week, 48 weeks a year, for 60$ an hour for even 10 years in a row is extremely unusual for a carpenter. Owning your own company can result in more stability at the cost of non billable hours. Working for someone else means being at the whims of the economy and or weather etc. Injuries or heath issues present longer term issues. PS: Granted you need some flexibility as highly specialized work is always less stable over the long term.
- georgeoliver 8y ago
  That link is for prevailing wage contracts, usually performed by union tradespeople, where wages are about double what a non-union worker will make in the Seattle area. Less than 20% of construction workers in the US are in a union.
  - chroem- 8y ago
chiph 8y ago
> The one big pattern you see is the abandonment of the liberal arts in favor of vocational majors Why not have both? The American College of the Building Arts awards a 4 year liberal arts degree with concentrations in masonry, timber framing, forged architectural ironwork, and other programs. And with the fire at Notre Dame, there is assured work for graduates for generations helping rebuild. https://acba.edu/ https://acba.edu/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_stn9qSLOs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_stn9qSLOs
- sverige 8y ago
  A friend of mine who is 75 years old was a mason his entire adult life. His father was as well. He told me how sad it is that so much knowledge and skill has been lost. He attributes a lot of that to the change in the management of the way buildings are built. It was not that long ago that master builders oversaw everything, design and construction. That has been fragmented of course. For some kinds of buildings it makes sense (e.g., skyscrapers), but for most it does not. As for masonry itself, it's in decline. When he sees new brick buildings, for example, none of them have bricks that stick out a bit over openings (doors and windows mainly) to ensure that rain water and snow melt drips away from the bricks below. As a result, the structure ages much faster than it would if it were built right. Since then, I've spent a lot of time looking at brick buildings. It's easy to spot old versus new now. I wonder how much skill and knowledge has been lost to the idea that college is the best way to learn things. I also wonder how that could be regained. Most of the people who know such things are dead, or nearly so.
PorterDuff 8y ago
It seems to me that it's more expensive to go to an Ivy League school than to simply hire faculty as personal tutors. Looking back, I can see where working with your hands would have been a lot of fun. No doubt you hit the ennui inherent in any profession. Maybe the right answer is to start over every ten years.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

77 points by wallflower 8y ago

Biased because I work there, but App Academy (coding bootcamp) has been running ISAs (Income Share Agreements) and deferred tuition models for the 6 years we've been around. I'd be shocked if this sort of model doesn't catch on soon and becomes a more de-facto way of monetizing. Pretty similar to trade schools in both form and timing. Purdue started implementing ISAs[1] but they're crazy expensive. Hopefully the university system can get closer to the value of the education instead of a multiplier on the students' results. Minimum payback threshold is also only 20k[2] which is absurdly low. a/A has a higher minimum threshold that seems more humane to me (50k salary for in-person cohorts and 60k for online cohorts). [1] https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html [2] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2018/Q4/purdue-research-foundation-raises-10.2-million-for-back-a-boiler-income-share-agreement-fund-ii.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2018/Q4/purdue-rese...

duxup 8y ago

I changed careers via a coding boot camp. I have highly mixed feelings about how coding boot camps are sold, and run, but I think for some people such short term training could be a sort of new future for trade schools. This could be particularly useful if we're entering an age of sudden disruption as far as jobs and career paths goes where a career that once was might be gone (or greatly diminished) tomorrow. Provided business are willing to recognize and hire those people.

exelius 8y ago
The change I see happening now is that many of the jobs people are hoping to “skill up” to are themselves being automated out of existence. A combination of targeted AI and good old-fashioned process automation are going to put a lot of white collar workers out of work; including software developers at the lower end of the skill curve.
- duxup 8y ago
  Very possible. People go where they think the right path is / they might like. I'm not sure anyone has proven to predict what the right path is yet.
  - exelius 8y ago
    I mean, if I could tell you that I would use it to predict the stock market so I wouldn’t need a job. Of course, the fact that the smartest people in the world do exactly that is in itself part of the problem...
- walshemj 8y ago
  They where saying that in the 1970's how do you automate even basic front end development of a web site today ?
  - opportune 8y ago
    Make a tool that automatically converts a designer's spec/mockup into a performant webpage with high fidelity? Sounds very hard but certainly possible To be fair there are already a lot of services that do this. They are just so commonplace we don't think of them as automation. And they don't allow super complicated setups so they're definitely not quite there yet in the general case. I'm thinking of Wix, Squarespace, basic wordpress.
    - exelius 8y ago
      Yeah, exactly things like that. The SaaS marketplace became so crowded that companies sought out a wide range of differentiated niches and automated a lot of specific use cases.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Have you seen the average spec for a website?
  - asark 8y ago
krisrm 8y ago
If you don't mind elaborating, what was your experience like with coding boot camp? I entered the profession "traditionally" (via a comp sci degree) so I don't know much about the boot camp experience.
- duxup 8y ago
  My program was "full time" (5 days a week) for 12 weeks. The camp was through my local university, but really they had bought a snap in program from an outside company. The course was basically front end to back end via, HTML - CSS - JavaScript - Node - React (in that order). There were other items covered but those were the big focus. Little to no CS, CS theory, algorithms or anything like that. IMO it does a good job getting you started in a specific area and a place to keep learning / jump off from. My instructor was great, his assistants were horrendous (couldn't help with anything, seemed disinterested, straight up were terrible at debugging). If someone puts in the extra time (and they make it clear that you HAVE to put in extra time outside of class) a capable person can come out of the camp as IMO, a useful entry level web developer with potential and a good place to learn from. I have kids so my life for that time was basically, class - take care of family - code - sleep ... repeat. Actually I've kinda kept that up for a year now. I had a technical background (network engineer) for a long time and was working with engineering teams and had done some scripting and reading about coding here and there. Even just a little background can help a lot in a a class that throws things at you quickly. Other folks without a technical background could do well too (one was an accountant, another a director of some sort of organization, some worked odd jobs but were capable folks). The catch in my class was that they do NOT filter candidates in any meaningful way and that ws arguably the worst aspect of the class. There was a test but I think it was more of a sales pitch (it was virtually the same test as several other camps in the area). I'd say at least 50% of the class was unemployable, and the worst of it was they were often on everyone's team for group projects. These people were often a net negative impact, they just couldn't do it couldn't finish their own work, and created more issues than helped. I don't look down on them for it, because how do you know if you ... don't know? I think they were brave for trying. But IMO the class should have done evaluations and invited some folks to save them self some time and move on but of course that might involve a partial refund so ... doesn't happen. That might sound like I'm talking smack about folks in order to talk myself up, but having a class with people who are either not trying (shockingly there were those) and / or not capable really disrupts the flow of the class and the amount of material covered. Everyone struggled at various points in the class, but some from week two and then constantly from there on they were so far behind it was never going to click. There's a lot of "everyone can code" out there, it's BS, everyone can write it, but troubleshooting and coding and getting a good outcome is another matter. Despite the negatives I have good memories of the class, it was a great experience. I didn't have a traditional education and I loved going to class every day and working with everyone. I do wish the class had gone about twice as long and filtered out candidates (as someone said, it's a bootcamp, shouldn't people be booted?). I think the bootcamp system can be useful (let's put aside the robots and AI for a bit) but I do worry the companies involved might be so profit driven that they make it ... less useful for society as a whole. One side note, a few students decided to go back to school for a traditional CS degree and they really appreciated their bootcamp experience on top of getting into CS where they felt the theory can get a bit deep and academic. They feel their fellow students (and some professors) maybe can't see the forest through the trees / what they're actually learning as it would apply to actual programming you might do when you apply that theory. I've worked with some great CS grads since graduating and they're good guys, most know way more than I do, but no amount of CS can make up for deciding that "I have no idea what is going on, I'm going to dive into the code and see where it goes until I figure it out." Quite a few just want to ask someone, and then ask, and then ask, and ... I wish I had a CS degree and if it was an option I would do it in a heartbeat, I think it is a far superior path. But I do think the boot camp system "can" work, for the right people.

jalgos_eminator 8y ago

I remember in middle school and high school we were told in no uncertain terms that we should all get 4 year college degrees because they gave the highest lifetime earnings. My high school was lucky enough to have an auto shop in it with a teacher that had been a mechanic/shop owner for years. He told us some good stories and also told us about how much money he made in the industry. I didn't think about it much then because I was dead set on getting an engineering degree, but I've had this feeling about 4 year colleges for a while now. I saw so many people at my state college (~30,000 enrollment) that had absolutely no idea what they wanted to do, lacked the skills to be effective in college, or were in a degree program that had no job opportunities. I saw many of them drop out after 1-2 years, but also saw ones that remained and got their degree. Now they are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with nothing to show for it, and the people who did graduate are in more debt with no good job prospects. It feels like we were lied to about college by all the adults in our lives.

russh 8y ago
You weren't lied to, you just dropped the ball.
- news_to_me 8y ago
  What? How?
- jalgos_eminator 8y ago
  I got my EE/CS degree and currently work in software development. I was talking about people I knew from my first few years at college and my high school experience. I was still lied to, but it worked great for me because what I wanted to do requires a college degree and compensation is notoriously good.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 8y ago
    Senior software engineer for 7 years. I don't have a degree. I love this field because it is like a modern day trade. You can teach yourself and you can showcase your skill without a piece of paper.

nimbius 8y ago

I am an engine mechanic for a chain of diesel shops in the Midwest. I hit trade school after age 17 and slid into a nice apprentice program for aspiring automotive mechanics. I can confirm my trade school, a state school, was one of the best decisions I'd ever made. I can also confirm that some of the heaviest weight on my heart is the friends I have that struggle to maintain basic health insurance and employment despite having a biology or chemistry degree. I don't know what the solution is, but I feel bitter about the kids sold down university avenue with nothing to show. So if I could say anything to the kids its this. We are hiring. We are hiring for work you'll be paid well for and a job you can be proud of. Welder, plumber, mechanic, these cannot continue to be four letter words. Talk to your vocational tech schools or your guidance counselor.

joe_the_user 8y ago
One question I'd have is how easy is it to get into an apprenticeship program? I have a friend who's working at a dealership driving and shining cars with the hope that after some period he'll become an actual mechanic apprentice, so the situation seems like it's less than a sure thing (my friend had a scare when someone tried to pull scam claiming my friend had dented his car and police report would be filed, which can be bad for a commercial driver).
- xemdetia 8y ago
  I'm no expert but if you are at a dealership trying to become a mechanic by detailing cars that seems like a weird/longshot unless there is a specific program to take people without certification and apply them to their specialized program from being a porter. I imagine that most people that start off at dealerships probably start off certified or with experience. If I was this person I would ask an independent shop and also a chain shop (Midas, Jiffy Lube) what the best way into the industry was if they don't want to go through trade school and get a basic automotive certification. I feel like dealerships for better or worse generally aren't in the business of training people from scratch (or have stringent requirements from corporate on who they can have service cars for warranty work) unless they have a damn good reason. Then there's also the usual questions you should give your friend: are you sure that this dealership knows you want to become a mechanic? Are they just wanting you to be porter? Are you friendly with the head mechanic and the mechanic staff or are you more friendly with the sales part of the dealership? Does the head mechanic know you want to become an apprentice? Have other porters become apprentice mechanics at this dealership? It also is worth asking if the mechanic's shop is an hourly or flat rate shop. A flat rate shop maybe not be the easiest place to get an apprentice compared to an hourly shop where taking an extra five minutes to explain something is not going to cut another mechanic's pay.

chroem- 8y ago

Here are the wage rates for trades in Washington State. [1] Some highlights from the Seattle area: - Carpenters: $60/hr - Electricians: $75/hr - HVAC Mechanics: $82.50/hr Almost every item on the list pays better than a typical STEM degree. [1] https://fortress.wa.gov/lni/wagelookup/prvWagelookup.aspx https://fortress.wa.gov/lni/wagelookup/prvWagelookup.aspx

Retric 8y ago
The major limit on that is it assumes you’re working billable hours. The trades are much less stable than an office job.
- chroem- 8y ago
  It was only a couple years ago when Boeing was slashing their engineering workforce in Seattle, in a good economy no less, to boost dividends.
  - Retric 8y ago
    That only sounds bad because of how used we are to a steady paycheck. Working a paid 40 hour week, 48 weeks a year, for 60$ an hour for even 10 years in a row is extremely unusual for a carpenter. Owning your own company can result in more stability at the cost of non billable hours. Working for someone else means being at the whims of the economy and or weather etc. Injuries or heath issues present longer term issues. PS: Granted you need some flexibility as highly specialized work is always less stable over the long term.
georgeoliver 8y ago
That link is for prevailing wage contracts, usually performed by union tradespeople, where wages are about double what a non-union worker will make in the Seattle area. Less than 20% of construction workers in the US are in a union.
- chroem- 8y ago

chiph 8y ago

> The one big pattern you see is the abandonment of the liberal arts in favor of vocational majors Why not have both? The American College of the Building Arts awards a 4 year liberal arts degree with concentrations in masonry, timber framing, forged architectural ironwork, and other programs. And with the fire at Notre Dame, there is assured work for graduates for generations helping rebuild. https://acba.edu/ https://acba.edu/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_stn9qSLOs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_stn9qSLOs

sverige 8y ago
A friend of mine who is 75 years old was a mason his entire adult life. His father was as well. He told me how sad it is that so much knowledge and skill has been lost. He attributes a lot of that to the change in the management of the way buildings are built. It was not that long ago that master builders oversaw everything, design and construction. That has been fragmented of course. For some kinds of buildings it makes sense (e.g., skyscrapers), but for most it does not. As for masonry itself, it's in decline. When he sees new brick buildings, for example, none of them have bricks that stick out a bit over openings (doors and windows mainly) to ensure that rain water and snow melt drips away from the bricks below. As a result, the structure ages much faster than it would if it were built right. Since then, I've spent a lot of time looking at brick buildings. It's easy to spot old versus new now. I wonder how much skill and knowledge has been lost to the idea that college is the best way to learn things. I also wonder how that could be regained. Most of the people who know such things are dead, or nearly so.

PorterDuff 8y ago

It seems to me that it's more expensive to go to an Ivy League school than to simply hire faculty as personal tutors. Looking back, I can see where working with your hands would have been a lot of fun. No doubt you hit the ennui inherent in any profession. Maybe the right answer is to start over every ten years.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]