7 ms·

New scientific device creates electricity from snowfall

carapace 7y ago
See also: Lord Kelvin's thunderstorm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_water_dropper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_water_dropper Vaneless ion wind generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaneless_ion_wind_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaneless_ion_wind_generator
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
argumentofapo 7y ago
I'm going to take a shit on a water wheel and publish one of these papers... "Scientist finally figure out how to harvest electricity from your toilet, potential applications include powering lights with pee"
IshKebab 7y ago
100% useless but very clever nonetheless.
- sctb 7y ago
  We've asked you several times to please comment more substantively. Would you mind trying a bit harder? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - slothtrop 7y ago
    Nothing in the guidelines about posting substantively. One does stipulate "Please don't post shallow dismissals", but I don't think that qualifies as utter dismissal. Here's something else the guideline says: Don't feed egregious comments by replying
ScottFree 7y ago
tl;dr: Snow is positively charged and gives up electrons. Silicone is negatively charged. When falling snow contacts the surface of silicone, that produces a charge that the device captures, creating electricity. This appears to be more useful for wearables than as a replacement for solar panels in the winter. I can't imagine the amount of power generated could be that great. It reminds me of one of those stationary bikes hooked up to a toaster.
- jerf 7y ago
  "This appears to be more useful for wearables than as a replacement for solar panels in the winter." That's a degree of bullshit so high that it has me seriously questioning what otherwise sounds at least reasonable. Yeah, I know, every science paper has to connect itself to some fashionable area of research that will excite the grant writers, like renewable energy or climate change, but the idea that it would ever be practical to capture that much power from snow is absurd. This is a particularly tenuous connection. The upper bounds on this technique are tiny; any advantage it may have is in its ability to deliver tiny amounts of power to places that would otherwise have none. If snow had any significant amount of energy in it, we'd know, because we'd get shocked when we stood in it. I think I'm going to settle on feeling bad for the scientists that they've done such interesting work and were forced by the system to spew such heavy bullshit on top of it to keep getting funded.
  - jrace 7y ago
    >>If snow had any significant amount of energy in it, we'd know, because we'd get shocked when we stood in it. But....we don't get shocked when we stand out in the sun? And yet solar power is a real thing! I am sure people scoffed back in the 1800's when scientist first worked with solar power.
    - jerf 7y ago
      "But....we don't get shocked when we stand out in the sun? And yet solar power is a real thing!" The reason I said "shocked" is not that shocking is the only way that energy can manifest itself. It's because it's the way that significant static electricity manifests, the claimed mechanism being used to obtain power. You can tell just by standing in the sunlight that it has substantial energy, because you get warm, along with anything else in the sunlight. Therefore it has at least enough energy to do that. Not to mention power the ecosystem. "I am sure people scoffed back in the 1800's when scientist first worked with solar power." With all due respect, you do not appear to be in a position to be lecturing people about this sort of thing. You may not understand how energy works, but some people do.
adium 7y ago
UCLA is finding ways to handle all the snow they see
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  The amount of power they will be harvesting will probably lead to revolution in measuring miniscule amounts of power :)
fisherwithac 7y ago
Despite my strong skepticism of this technology being used as a replacement or even supplement for solar panels anytime in the near future, I really admire the creative thought process that led them to get even the miniscule results they did. I'm not a chemist or phyhsicist in any regard, so I can't say whether this could be the stepping stone to something more large scale down the line. Could anyone shed light on whether there are any physical limits given the materials used (slilcone, snow, etc.) to how much energy you could extract?
- cogman10 7y ago
  In the paper, the product produces 0.2 mW/m^2 Solar panels produce 175W/m^2 for comparison. If this ever produced 1W/m^2 I'd be shocked.
  - xbmcuser 7y ago
    Is the power enough to melt the snow to clear the panels of the snow. That could be a good use for it. Solar pan
    - cogman10 7y ago
      It is not. It takes 2.09J/g to heat ice 1 degree.
  - jerf 7y ago
    And that's the production during snowfall. Even here in Michigan, the sun shines a great deal more than we literally have snow falling. And if the snow is falling all day, it's going to be a light snow that probably isn't reaching 0.2mW/m^2. Plus, if I'm seeing the physics here in my head properly based on their description, you can't just stick this out in the snow like a panel and get a consistent 0.2mW/m^2 even under optimal snow conditions. As the snow accumulates on the collector it'll insulate the collector from the rest of the snow. You really want the snow to be brushing the collector and then departing having given up its excess charge, not accumulating on it. Sunlight obviously does not present this problem, since it basically is 100% made out of charge (if you'll pardon the sloppy terminology, asp precision wouldn't really buy anything here), so there's no additional mass to dispose of, just any waste heat issues that may arise. I'm pretty sure that in real conditions the difference between the two would be another two or three orders of magnitude larger, which is why my other post is so grumpy. It's multiple orders of magnitude obviously not even remotely feasible, to the point it's almost insulting that it was said.
kemyd 7y ago
* A new device - snow-based triboelectric nanogenerator, or snow TENG - creates electricity from falling snow, among other potential uses. * Richard Kaner (highly influential and cited scientist) and team used 3D printing to design a device that combines silicone with an electrode. * Thanks to “the ease of fabrication and the availability of silicone” the device, which is essentially a small sheet of plastic, could be produced at low cost. * It can work in remote areas, doesn’t need batteries, and could be used in solar panels, or self-powered wearables for tracking athletes. PS. Yesterday posted on https://bullets.tech https://bullets.tech - I'm looking for people interested in science to help us writing summaries and selecting scientific content
RenRav 7y ago
Does it rely on the user moving around to knock off snow that accumulated?
novia 7y ago
A lot of comments here seem to be missing the point. This isn't supposed to add electricity to the grid. It just makes a self sufficient weather station to measure snowfall. Which is cool. A lot of times you'd want to measure such things away from the grid without having to worry about batteries. Something I'm curious about is whether similar tech could be used to self sufficiently measure pollen.
- m463 7y ago
  I think the article does't clarify that point, because it says: "The new device could be integrated into solar panels to provide a continuous power supply when it snows, he said."
  - novia 7y ago
    >“The device can work in remote areas because it provides its own power and does not need batteries,” said senior author Richard Kaner Second paragraph. The point is, when it snows, often the sun is blocked, or the solar panels might get covered. While it is snowing this device can continue to work without batteries.
    - m463 7y ago
      I think for clarity, the article should touch on the magnitude of the power output in human terms. For example, some models of the Nissan Leaf electric car have a small solar panel on the roof. Surprisingly, I think this is a selling point for the car or the option package that includes the panel because people think this car will give you many miles of free driving. However, it's supposed to maintain the 12v battery, but its 5 watts of power might not be sufficient power for even that minor task.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Yeah the electricity output isn't the point but the fact the power generated is the raw signal. I wonder mostly about the accuracy and precision of such a sensor. Even its "not snow" triggers could be scientifically useful. Imagine if say it was sensitive enough it could identify particulates and tell where heavy metal pollutants land on the tarp.
Animats 7y ago
Cute. Remember the fad for "energy generating sidewalks"? That got far enough that there's a startup.[1] It's useless as a power generator, so they figured out how to market it as a hype generator. "Pavegen creates high engagement with citizens by converting their footsteps into energy, data and rewards." They're on Instagram, etc. [1] http://www.pavegen.com/ http://www.pavegen.com/
- starpilot 7y ago
  ...it still generates energy. It's a small amount for a small application, but it's purposeful energy.
jaytaylor 7y ago
How does it work, exactly? Can you just attach a lead to a blob of silicone and begin consuming the energy as soon as snow exposure begins?

See also: Lord Kelvin's thunderstorm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_water_dropper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_water_dropper Vaneless ion wind generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaneless_ion_wind_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaneless_ion_wind_generator

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

argumentofapo 7y ago

I'm going to take a shit on a water wheel and publish one of these papers... "Scientist finally figure out how to harvest electricity from your toilet, potential applications include powering lights with pee"

IshKebab 7y ago

100% useless but very clever nonetheless.

sctb 7y ago
We've asked you several times to please comment more substantively. Would you mind trying a bit harder? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- slothtrop 7y ago
  Nothing in the guidelines about posting substantively. One does stipulate "Please don't post shallow dismissals", but I don't think that qualifies as utter dismissal. Here's something else the guideline says: Don't feed egregious comments by replying

ScottFree 7y ago

tl;dr: Snow is positively charged and gives up electrons. Silicone is negatively charged. When falling snow contacts the surface of silicone, that produces a charge that the device captures, creating electricity. This appears to be more useful for wearables than as a replacement for solar panels in the winter. I can't imagine the amount of power generated could be that great. It reminds me of one of those stationary bikes hooked up to a toaster.

jerf 7y ago
"This appears to be more useful for wearables than as a replacement for solar panels in the winter." That's a degree of bullshit so high that it has me seriously questioning what otherwise sounds at least reasonable. Yeah, I know, every science paper has to connect itself to some fashionable area of research that will excite the grant writers, like renewable energy or climate change, but the idea that it would ever be practical to capture that much power from snow is absurd. This is a particularly tenuous connection. The upper bounds on this technique are tiny; any advantage it may have is in its ability to deliver tiny amounts of power to places that would otherwise have none. If snow had any significant amount of energy in it, we'd know, because we'd get shocked when we stood in it. I think I'm going to settle on feeling bad for the scientists that they've done such interesting work and were forced by the system to spew such heavy bullshit on top of it to keep getting funded.
- jrace 7y ago
  >>If snow had any significant amount of energy in it, we'd know, because we'd get shocked when we stood in it. But....we don't get shocked when we stand out in the sun? And yet solar power is a real thing! I am sure people scoffed back in the 1800's when scientist first worked with solar power.
  - jerf 7y ago
    "But....we don't get shocked when we stand out in the sun? And yet solar power is a real thing!" The reason I said "shocked" is not that shocking is the only way that energy can manifest itself. It's because it's the way that significant static electricity manifests, the claimed mechanism being used to obtain power. You can tell just by standing in the sunlight that it has substantial energy, because you get warm, along with anything else in the sunlight. Therefore it has at least enough energy to do that. Not to mention power the ecosystem. "I am sure people scoffed back in the 1800's when scientist first worked with solar power." With all due respect, you do not appear to be in a position to be lecturing people about this sort of thing. You may not understand how energy works, but some people do.

adium 7y ago

UCLA is finding ways to handle all the snow they see

maxxxxx 7y ago
The amount of power they will be harvesting will probably lead to revolution in measuring miniscule amounts of power :)

fisherwithac 7y ago

Despite my strong skepticism of this technology being used as a replacement or even supplement for solar panels anytime in the near future, I really admire the creative thought process that led them to get even the miniscule results they did. I'm not a chemist or phyhsicist in any regard, so I can't say whether this could be the stepping stone to something more large scale down the line. Could anyone shed light on whether there are any physical limits given the materials used (slilcone, snow, etc.) to how much energy you could extract?

cogman10 7y ago
In the paper, the product produces 0.2 mW/m^2 Solar panels produce 175W/m^2 for comparison. If this ever produced 1W/m^2 I'd be shocked.
- xbmcuser 7y ago
  Is the power enough to melt the snow to clear the panels of the snow. That could be a good use for it. Solar pan
  - cogman10 7y ago
    It is not. It takes 2.09J/g to heat ice 1 degree.
- jerf 7y ago
  And that's the production during snowfall. Even here in Michigan, the sun shines a great deal more than we literally have snow falling. And if the snow is falling all day, it's going to be a light snow that probably isn't reaching 0.2mW/m^2. Plus, if I'm seeing the physics here in my head properly based on their description, you can't just stick this out in the snow like a panel and get a consistent 0.2mW/m^2 even under optimal snow conditions. As the snow accumulates on the collector it'll insulate the collector from the rest of the snow. You really want the snow to be brushing the collector and then departing having given up its excess charge, not accumulating on it. Sunlight obviously does not present this problem, since it basically is 100% made out of charge (if you'll pardon the sloppy terminology, asp precision wouldn't really buy anything here), so there's no additional mass to dispose of, just any waste heat issues that may arise. I'm pretty sure that in real conditions the difference between the two would be another two or three orders of magnitude larger, which is why my other post is so grumpy. It's multiple orders of magnitude obviously not even remotely feasible, to the point it's almost insulting that it was said.

kemyd 7y ago

* A new device - snow-based triboelectric nanogenerator, or snow TENG - creates electricity from falling snow, among other potential uses. * Richard Kaner (highly influential and cited scientist) and team used 3D printing to design a device that combines silicone with an electrode. * Thanks to “the ease of fabrication and the availability of silicone” the device, which is essentially a small sheet of plastic, could be produced at low cost. * It can work in remote areas, doesn’t need batteries, and could be used in solar panels, or self-powered wearables for tracking athletes. PS. Yesterday posted on https://bullets.tech https://bullets.tech - I'm looking for people interested in science to help us writing summaries and selecting scientific content

RenRav 7y ago

Does it rely on the user moving around to knock off snow that accumulated?

novia 7y ago

A lot of comments here seem to be missing the point. This isn't supposed to add electricity to the grid. It just makes a self sufficient weather station to measure snowfall. Which is cool. A lot of times you'd want to measure such things away from the grid without having to worry about batteries. Something I'm curious about is whether similar tech could be used to self sufficiently measure pollen.

m463 7y ago
I think the article does't clarify that point, because it says: "The new device could be integrated into solar panels to provide a continuous power supply when it snows, he said."
- novia 7y ago
  >“The device can work in remote areas because it provides its own power and does not need batteries,” said senior author Richard Kaner Second paragraph. The point is, when it snows, often the sun is blocked, or the solar panels might get covered. While it is snowing this device can continue to work without batteries.
  - m463 7y ago
    I think for clarity, the article should touch on the magnitude of the power output in human terms. For example, some models of the Nissan Leaf electric car have a small solar panel on the roof. Surprisingly, I think this is a selling point for the car or the option package that includes the panel because people think this car will give you many miles of free driving. However, it's supposed to maintain the 12v battery, but its 5 watts of power might not be sufficient power for even that minor task.
Nasrudith 7y ago
Yeah the electricity output isn't the point but the fact the power generated is the raw signal. I wonder mostly about the accuracy and precision of such a sensor. Even its "not snow" triggers could be scientifically useful. Imagine if say it was sensitive enough it could identify particulates and tell where heavy metal pollutants land on the tarp.

Animats 7y ago

Cute. Remember the fad for "energy generating sidewalks"? That got far enough that there's a startup.[1] It's useless as a power generator, so they figured out how to market it as a hype generator. "Pavegen creates high engagement with citizens by converting their footsteps into energy, data and rewards." They're on Instagram, etc. [1] http://www.pavegen.com/ http://www.pavegen.com/

starpilot 7y ago
...it still generates energy. It's a small amount for a small application, but it's purposeful energy.

jaytaylor 7y ago

How does it work, exactly? Can you just attach a lead to a blob of silicone and begin consuming the energy as soon as snow exposure begins?