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I find you have to do this, but it can damage professional relationships. Recently I've flat out said no, as gently as I could, to doing some work - porting a

I find you have to do this, but it can damage professional relationships. Recently I've flat out said no, as gently as I could, to doing some work - porting a software stack to run on Windows. A customer is asking for an estimate to do it, because a project manager who wouldn't be developing or supporting (or even using) the system likes Windows. The sales manager isn't thrilled with me over it. So he's asked the team as a whole to estimate it because I wouldn't. The rest of the guys are frontend devs. I don't have a clue, they're in a worse position but for some reason they're all up for putting a number to it so I look like a bit of a ! I'm a contractor, so I can and would just turn down the work, but it's difficult politically.

circlefavshape 8y ago
This drives me crazy! Dev: "It's a really bad idea, will take an indeterminate amount of time, and be a maintenance nightmare" PM: "Can I just get an estimate?"
- kthejoker2 8y ago
  I'm a big believer in pushing back on small words doing heavy lifting. "Just" is a big red flag in software delivery.
adrianmsmith 8y ago
Ok cool but if they have to deliver it, they’ll look like fools in the long run when they can’t, and in the end they’ll see you’re right? So it’s a win for your reputation in the long term I think?
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  That's naive. Nobody will revisit the GP's reputation, and after the novice devs fail to do the work people will just scatter into different projects. They may or may not take a reputation hit, while the PM that insists so much on doing the not viable work will take none of it.
- werbel 8y ago
  My guess is no one will look back and say "Huh, he was right". The only thing that probably is going to happen is "Huh, why isn't that delivered?" and then they will look everywhere but on the fact that it was, at least partially, just a stupid idea in the first place. Of course I don't know the exact situation so it's more of a thought on what happens in general in the industry.
  - dTal 8y ago
    At the risk of a totally uncalled-for derail into politics - this is a hilariously apt description of Brexit. It makes me want to reanalyze the entire situation from a project-management perspective. It suggests a possibly illuminating metaphor: party leaders = management + sales, the electorate = the customer, and representatives = developers and engineers.
danmaz74 8y ago
An alternative to flat out saying no is to point out how expensive and risky what you've been asked would be, in terms of development time, maintenance, and other metrics that the business cares about. Even very rough estimates with a list of risks will usually do. If somebody else comes out with a much lower estimate, ask them what they think about risk A, B, C... if you've got a point, this will usually work.
- ddalex 8y ago
  That's a bingo! It's never No! It's "Sure, this is what it entails and this is how much it costs". Especially if you're a contractor. If their willing to pay the price, why not take the money and do the work?
  - cs02rm0 8y ago
    Mostly, I'd agree. I have literally no idea how long it would take though, I couldn't in good faith put a number to it. I also don't want the work - Windows isn't an environment I have experience in because it's an environment I don't want experience in. They wouldn't allow a rate change to do the work.
- ben509 8y ago
  If you do this, identify beforehand what you think is non-negotiable. Because it won't be a technical discussion, it will be a negotiation and you're liable to be committed at the end of it. Of course, once you're holding certain things as non-negotiable... you're saying no.
- kthejoker2 8y ago
  Jerry Weinberg had the Orange Juice test which always struck me as a practical approach to all requests. https://medium.com/intercom-inside/the-orange-juice-test-c9033fbb7117 https://medium.com/intercom-inside/the-orange-juice-test-c90...
ben509 8y ago
> ... it's difficult politically. The thing to understand about politics is you can do everything right and still lose. Here, the damage was already done by their unrealistic expectations. You were either going to accept the job, fail and make them angry, or reject it and make them angry. Sometimes your least worst option is to cut your losses.

circlefavshape 8y ago

This drives me crazy! Dev: "It's a really bad idea, will take an indeterminate amount of time, and be a maintenance nightmare" PM: "Can I just get an estimate?"

kthejoker2 8y ago
I'm a big believer in pushing back on small words doing heavy lifting. "Just" is a big red flag in software delivery.

adrianmsmith 8y ago

Ok cool but if they have to deliver it, they’ll look like fools in the long run when they can’t, and in the end they’ll see you’re right? So it’s a win for your reputation in the long term I think?

marcosdumay 8y ago
That's naive. Nobody will revisit the GP's reputation, and after the novice devs fail to do the work people will just scatter into different projects. They may or may not take a reputation hit, while the PM that insists so much on doing the not viable work will take none of it.
werbel 8y ago
My guess is no one will look back and say "Huh, he was right". The only thing that probably is going to happen is "Huh, why isn't that delivered?" and then they will look everywhere but on the fact that it was, at least partially, just a stupid idea in the first place. Of course I don't know the exact situation so it's more of a thought on what happens in general in the industry.
- dTal 8y ago
  At the risk of a totally uncalled-for derail into politics - this is a hilariously apt description of Brexit. It makes me want to reanalyze the entire situation from a project-management perspective. It suggests a possibly illuminating metaphor: party leaders = management + sales, the electorate = the customer, and representatives = developers and engineers.

danmaz74 8y ago

An alternative to flat out saying no is to point out how expensive and risky what you've been asked would be, in terms of development time, maintenance, and other metrics that the business cares about. Even very rough estimates with a list of risks will usually do. If somebody else comes out with a much lower estimate, ask them what they think about risk A, B, C... if you've got a point, this will usually work.

ddalex 8y ago
That's a bingo! It's never No! It's "Sure, this is what it entails and this is how much it costs". Especially if you're a contractor. If their willing to pay the price, why not take the money and do the work?
- cs02rm0 8y ago
  Mostly, I'd agree. I have literally no idea how long it would take though, I couldn't in good faith put a number to it. I also don't want the work - Windows isn't an environment I have experience in because it's an environment I don't want experience in. They wouldn't allow a rate change to do the work.
ben509 8y ago
If you do this, identify beforehand what you think is non-negotiable. Because it won't be a technical discussion, it will be a negotiation and you're liable to be committed at the end of it. Of course, once you're holding certain things as non-negotiable... you're saying no.
kthejoker2 8y ago
Jerry Weinberg had the Orange Juice test which always struck me as a practical approach to all requests. https://medium.com/intercom-inside/the-orange-juice-test-c9033fbb7117 https://medium.com/intercom-inside/the-orange-juice-test-c90...

ben509 8y ago

> ... it's difficult politically. The thing to understand about politics is you can do everything right and still lose. Here, the damage was already done by their unrealistic expectations. You were either going to accept the job, fail and make them angry, or reject it and make them angry. Sometimes your least worst option is to cut your losses.