6 ms·

Taxes are a good thing. They pay, or should pay, for education, health, military, roads and infrastructure and a wide variety of other stuff that is good for e

Taxes are a good thing. They pay, or should pay, for education, health, military, roads and infrastructure and a wide variety of other stuff that is good for everyone. It puzzles me that people hate taxes so much.

programmertote 8y ago
I consider myself a fairly progressive person. But I think at least some of the people, who don't like paying so much taxes, don't like the fact that the government is allocating the tax money collected, and it could, according to their belief, cause inefficiency. I agree with that notion to a certain degree. For example, I wish there is a way to allocate the tax that I pay yearly to the programs that I want to fund. Specifically speaking, say if I pay $100 in tax, I should have a say to paying at least $50 of that to programs that I think are important for me (e.g., dept. of transportation; dept. of education; EPA...)
- chii 8y ago
  > programs that I think are important for me Which is the whole reason why individuals should not be making such choices. Small, marginalised causes or departments should still get funding. If we followed your method of fund allocation, some aspects of Govt would not get any funding at all. You may also end up funding departments which don't need as much funding. This misallocation is worse than today's imo.
  - p1necone 8y ago
    And things where the negative effects of lower funding won't be seen for maybe decades down the track might not get enough funding either because their necessity wouldn't be obvious to the average person. Although we have that problem currently too so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
- seanwilson 8y ago
  > I wish there is a way to allocate the tax that I pay yearly to the programs that I want to fund Isn't that what voting for representatives that represent your general viewpoints is meant to do? You delegate decisions to representatives because it wouldn't be practical to keep up with everything you need to make a large number of informed decisions.
Spooky23 8y ago
In the US, anti-tax movement came out of the Goldwater era where Western libertarian and resource extraction people joined up with segregationists to form the modern conservative movement. The idea is that rugged individuals should have absolute property rights, and that business will take care of things.
TACIXAT 8y ago
In an ideal world I would prefer to reduce zoning so I could live near my work rather than pay a ton for roads that don't support me as a cyclist and transit user. For paying for healthcare, many illnesses are preventable and I do not think those should be paid for by others. As well, the military does some super questionable things that I do not support. Working in security, with my partner previously in healthcare IT, we have seen our share of wasteful or inefficient government contracts. I don't have a solution for a better system, but I can absolutely see why people do not like taxes. They aren't building the world I want to see.
jimmy1 8y ago
> It puzzles me that people hate taxes so much. People's problems with taxes typically fall into two buckets, sometimes both. 1. On a fundamental economics level, the Government is an inefficient third party spender: it spends other peoples money on services it doesn't utilize. There is no feedback loop there besides bureaucracy. 2. We actually have a pretty moderate tax burden already, mostly footed by the average US worker. Everyone talks about the top rate, or federal taxes, but we also have sales tax, property tax, estate tax, in some areas a county tax on top of city or municipality tax, and additional education-related taxes, not counting the outlier states that have even more taxes on top of that. (There's a saying in NYC: Every day is tax day). The common worker pays the majority of the taxes, and they are the ones who are most sensitive to any increase in taxes, and feel pinched already, so they naturally, and very expectedly are against being taxed more. (Realize that the typical HN'er is not the average US worker, making ~60k median salary with few benefits)
- zzzeek 8y ago
  76% of voters favor higher taxes on the wealthiest americans, 61% favor Warren's "wealth tax", and even 40% support a marginal tax rate of 70% on americans earning $10M or more: http://fortune.com/2019/02/04/support-for-tax-increase-on-wealthy-americans-poll/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/04/support-for-tax-increase-on-we... this would contradict your theory that "the common worker hates taxes", since most Americans want more taxation, not less.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    More taxation for other people, not themselves. If you hate taxes and love services, the obvious thing is to get someone else to pay for them.
  - thrill 8y ago
    Yet another reason why the Founders' recognition that ruling via a simple majority was an eventual death knoll for a society.
    - anoncake 8y ago
rb808 8y ago
I'm not sure if you're in America, but in the US it federal income taxes largely goes to 14 giant aircraft carriers, a huge network of nuclear weapons, corporate farmers intensely growing carbs that makes our nation fat and payoffs to various politically well-connected lobby groups. State and local taxes probably are more useful for the things you think benefit society. Social Security and Medicare are of course funded separately. There is nothing for the endless army of homeless people living on the streets. I know in many countries people are happy to pay taxes, if I saw everyone was treated well, got free healthcare and free universities I'd probably be happier about paying tax too.
- jcranmer 8y ago
  > largely goes to 14 giant aircraft carriers How much do you think the Navy actually costs? Crunching the numbers, the tax the corporation I work at (admittedly, not a small company) is by itself sufficient to pay for running one of those carriers.
  - max76 8y ago
    The Department of Defense's budget is about Six Hundred and Fifty Billion Dollars. It appears too high for peace time. We have friendly relations with both neighboring states. We have huge natural defenses (oceans) to the east and west. We have the nuclear deterrent. We have a well armed population. We don't need 355 deployable navy vessels. Improving education and health care of our citizens would do more to improve America's economic position than jostling for terrority in the Indian Ocean. Climate change is a bigger treat than terrorism.
- tptacek 8y ago
  If you're in the US, federal dollars overwhelmingly go to Medicare and Social Security; the United States is a health insurance and HR benefits provider that happens to have an army.
  - coolgeek 8y ago
    Roughly speaking, 25% of spending goes to the military, 25% to SS/Medicare, and the other 50% to everything else. It is important to note that the 25% for SS/MC is funded by a separate tax, targeted to those programs. Without getting sidetracked over budget unification, it is equally important to note that this separate tax has generated a surplus for decades, and has therefore been used to subsidize the rest of the budget.
refurb 8y ago
They hate them mostly because the money is wasted or appears to be wasted. I’m on the more conservative side of things, but I’m not opposed to taxes if they are efficiently spent.
sigzero 8y ago
I don't agree with the education part. There are other ways to do that. Health I could be on board for, but they lost me at you get fined if you don't participate. That's crap. A lot of people are already taxed to the breaking point and you would have a hard time convincing them. Lastly, the money is mine and not the governments and they already play fast and loose with taxes.
basetop 8y ago
There are specific taxes for specific projects. I'd say specific taxes are a good thing. For example, gas tax for roads, healthcare tax for health insurance, etc. What most people are opposed to is income tax ( which historically was only used to fund wars ). I wouldn't classify taxes as "a good thing". I'd say it is a necessary evil or something that could be good in a limited form. If it truly was a good thing, then we should maximize the good and tax everyone at 100% and give all our income to the government. Also, considering the poor state of our education system, healthcare, infrastructure and "wide variety of other stuff", arguments can be made that taxes aren't as good as people think. Toss in the neverending wars to justify military budgets, you could argue taxes are bad. But I think most sensible people reject the good/bad extremes and take a moderate view. Some taxation are or can be good. It can also be wasteful and bad.
closeparen 8y ago
Puzzlement is good. Puzzlement is on the path to understanding. Pull the thread and see where it goes! Your examples are great places to start. Is the military good for everyone? How have we been using it since WWII, and how has that worked out? Is spending on roads good for everyone? Is the Interstate Highway System’s effect on the American lifestyle and built environment, on average, a positive one? How is education funded? How is funding related to outcomes? Can you improve outcomes by spending more? How closely does the political process track popular will? What considerations determine whether something gets funded and how much? The world may be less puzzling (or at least, puzzling in different ways) when you become more familiar with the complexities and controversies in these questions.
1ta 8y ago
I dont hate paying $1 to receive $10. I hate paying $10 to receive $1.

programmertote 8y ago

I consider myself a fairly progressive person. But I think at least some of the people, who don't like paying so much taxes, don't like the fact that the government is allocating the tax money collected, and it could, according to their belief, cause inefficiency. I agree with that notion to a certain degree. For example, I wish there is a way to allocate the tax that I pay yearly to the programs that I want to fund. Specifically speaking, say if I pay $100 in tax, I should have a say to paying at least $50 of that to programs that I think are important for me (e.g., dept. of transportation; dept. of education; EPA...)

chii 8y ago
> programs that I think are important for me Which is the whole reason why individuals should not be making such choices. Small, marginalised causes or departments should still get funding. If we followed your method of fund allocation, some aspects of Govt would not get any funding at all. You may also end up funding departments which don't need as much funding. This misallocation is worse than today's imo.
- p1necone 8y ago
  And things where the negative effects of lower funding won't be seen for maybe decades down the track might not get enough funding either because their necessity wouldn't be obvious to the average person. Although we have that problem currently too so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
seanwilson 8y ago
> I wish there is a way to allocate the tax that I pay yearly to the programs that I want to fund Isn't that what voting for representatives that represent your general viewpoints is meant to do? You delegate decisions to representatives because it wouldn't be practical to keep up with everything you need to make a large number of informed decisions.

Spooky23 8y ago

In the US, anti-tax movement came out of the Goldwater era where Western libertarian and resource extraction people joined up with segregationists to form the modern conservative movement. The idea is that rugged individuals should have absolute property rights, and that business will take care of things.

TACIXAT 8y ago

In an ideal world I would prefer to reduce zoning so I could live near my work rather than pay a ton for roads that don't support me as a cyclist and transit user. For paying for healthcare, many illnesses are preventable and I do not think those should be paid for by others. As well, the military does some super questionable things that I do not support. Working in security, with my partner previously in healthcare IT, we have seen our share of wasteful or inefficient government contracts. I don't have a solution for a better system, but I can absolutely see why people do not like taxes. They aren't building the world I want to see.

jimmy1 8y ago

> It puzzles me that people hate taxes so much. People's problems with taxes typically fall into two buckets, sometimes both. 1. On a fundamental economics level, the Government is an inefficient third party spender: it spends other peoples money on services it doesn't utilize. There is no feedback loop there besides bureaucracy. 2. We actually have a pretty moderate tax burden already, mostly footed by the average US worker. Everyone talks about the top rate, or federal taxes, but we also have sales tax, property tax, estate tax, in some areas a county tax on top of city or municipality tax, and additional education-related taxes, not counting the outlier states that have even more taxes on top of that. (There's a saying in NYC: Every day is tax day). The common worker pays the majority of the taxes, and they are the ones who are most sensitive to any increase in taxes, and feel pinched already, so they naturally, and very expectedly are against being taxed more. (Realize that the typical HN'er is not the average US worker, making ~60k median salary with few benefits)

zzzeek 8y ago
76% of voters favor higher taxes on the wealthiest americans, 61% favor Warren's "wealth tax", and even 40% support a marginal tax rate of 70% on americans earning $10M or more: http://fortune.com/2019/02/04/support-for-tax-increase-on-wealthy-americans-poll/ http://fortune.com/2019/02/04/support-for-tax-increase-on-we... this would contradict your theory that "the common worker hates taxes", since most Americans want more taxation, not less.
- closeparen 8y ago
  More taxation for other people, not themselves. If you hate taxes and love services, the obvious thing is to get someone else to pay for them.
- thrill 8y ago
  Yet another reason why the Founders' recognition that ruling via a simple majority was an eventual death knoll for a society.
  - anoncake 8y ago

rb808 8y ago

I'm not sure if you're in America, but in the US it federal income taxes largely goes to 14 giant aircraft carriers, a huge network of nuclear weapons, corporate farmers intensely growing carbs that makes our nation fat and payoffs to various politically well-connected lobby groups. State and local taxes probably are more useful for the things you think benefit society. Social Security and Medicare are of course funded separately. There is nothing for the endless army of homeless people living on the streets. I know in many countries people are happy to pay taxes, if I saw everyone was treated well, got free healthcare and free universities I'd probably be happier about paying tax too.

jcranmer 8y ago
> largely goes to 14 giant aircraft carriers How much do you think the Navy actually costs? Crunching the numbers, the tax the corporation I work at (admittedly, not a small company) is by itself sufficient to pay for running one of those carriers.
- max76 8y ago
  The Department of Defense's budget is about Six Hundred and Fifty Billion Dollars. It appears too high for peace time. We have friendly relations with both neighboring states. We have huge natural defenses (oceans) to the east and west. We have the nuclear deterrent. We have a well armed population. We don't need 355 deployable navy vessels. Improving education and health care of our citizens would do more to improve America's economic position than jostling for terrority in the Indian Ocean. Climate change is a bigger treat than terrorism.
tptacek 8y ago
If you're in the US, federal dollars overwhelmingly go to Medicare and Social Security; the United States is a health insurance and HR benefits provider that happens to have an army.
- coolgeek 8y ago
  Roughly speaking, 25% of spending goes to the military, 25% to SS/Medicare, and the other 50% to everything else. It is important to note that the 25% for SS/MC is funded by a separate tax, targeted to those programs. Without getting sidetracked over budget unification, it is equally important to note that this separate tax has generated a surplus for decades, and has therefore been used to subsidize the rest of the budget.

refurb 8y ago

They hate them mostly because the money is wasted or appears to be wasted. I’m on the more conservative side of things, but I’m not opposed to taxes if they are efficiently spent.

sigzero 8y ago

I don't agree with the education part. There are other ways to do that. Health I could be on board for, but they lost me at you get fined if you don't participate. That's crap. A lot of people are already taxed to the breaking point and you would have a hard time convincing them. Lastly, the money is mine and not the governments and they already play fast and loose with taxes.

basetop 8y ago

There are specific taxes for specific projects. I'd say specific taxes are a good thing. For example, gas tax for roads, healthcare tax for health insurance, etc. What most people are opposed to is income tax ( which historically was only used to fund wars ). I wouldn't classify taxes as "a good thing". I'd say it is a necessary evil or something that could be good in a limited form. If it truly was a good thing, then we should maximize the good and tax everyone at 100% and give all our income to the government. Also, considering the poor state of our education system, healthcare, infrastructure and "wide variety of other stuff", arguments can be made that taxes aren't as good as people think. Toss in the neverending wars to justify military budgets, you could argue taxes are bad. But I think most sensible people reject the good/bad extremes and take a moderate view. Some taxation are or can be good. It can also be wasteful and bad.

closeparen 8y ago

Puzzlement is good. Puzzlement is on the path to understanding. Pull the thread and see where it goes! Your examples are great places to start. Is the military good for everyone? How have we been using it since WWII, and how has that worked out? Is spending on roads good for everyone? Is the Interstate Highway System’s effect on the American lifestyle and built environment, on average, a positive one? How is education funded? How is funding related to outcomes? Can you improve outcomes by spending more? How closely does the political process track popular will? What considerations determine whether something gets funded and how much? The world may be less puzzling (or at least, puzzling in different ways) when you become more familiar with the complexities and controversies in these questions.

1ta 8y ago

I dont hate paying $1 to receive $10. I hate paying $10 to receive $1.