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In the news they said that firefighters are entering the building to save as much art as possible before spraying water. (The news networks are pretty much as
by Raphmedia 8y ago
In the news they said that firefighters are entering the building to save as much art as possible before spraying water.
(The news networks are pretty much as clueless to the situation as everyone else, so take with a grain of salt)
Edit: They are now spraying the stone structures.
- blotter_paper 8y agoI wonder how the firefighters feel about risking their lives for art, as opposed to other lives. I'm not saying I wouldn't risk human lives for certain works of art, but I can imagine some boots on the ground feeling salty about it.
- pdpi 8y agoThere’s art and there’s art. And then there’s the symbol of a whole nation. I imagine even the most reticent would be jumping in on this one.
- kaoD 8y agoNot everyone is nationalistic.
- omginternets 8y agoThis isn't nationalism. Its patriotism. There's a really important difference.
- kaoD 8y agoAnd what's the difference? My dictionary, as well as Wiktionary[0], defines nationalism as "1. Patriotism". [0] https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/nationalism https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/nationalism
- sneakernets 8y agoModern meanings of nationalism are synonymous with jingoism. It was once in the definition list on Wiktionary, but was conveniently removed late last year.
- laken 8y agoand if you follow that link, it refers to the 3rd definition of patriotism: "The desire to compete with other nations; nationalism." Patriotism is a better fit for this use, as there's the first definition: "Love of one's country; devotion to the welfare of one's compatriots; passion which inspires one to serve one's country." Generally, if we're not using literal dictionary definitions, in a political context, nationalism is overpowering patriotism where you want your country to be better than others at all costs. Patriotism is a love for you country and your people.
- pdpi 8y agoNationalism, in current usage, tends to mean jingoism. The difference between that and patriotism could be described as the same as the difference between love and obsession.
- pferde 8y agoI feel this is a good explanation: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction
- wrs 8y agoNationalism is like rooting for your home team. Patriotism is like caring for your family.
- omginternets 8y agoThat's an oversimplification that borders on the outright incorrect: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/patriotism-vs-nationalism https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/patriotism-vs-...
- CompelTechnic 8y agoFrance does seem to have a deep seated nationalism that I don't understand very well. They care extremely deeply about their cultural works to a degree that does not make sense to me.
- MR4D 8y ago"The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does" [0] Sydney J. Harris [0] - https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sydney_J._Harris https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sydney_J._Harris
- kaoD 8y agoThat seems like a feel-good post-hoc euphemism (but ok, I accept that language evolves). Either way: how did France (the nation) make any of these artworks? You could argue it was made by anyone in the spectrum ranging from "the artist" to "the humanity". Stopping at France seems arbitrary and a bit... nationalistic. If any institution "made" them, it's the Catholic Church, not France.
- MR4D 8y agoGiven that France is "overwhelmingly Roman Catholic" [0], your last statement could be considered interchangeable. Perhaps (and I'm not French, so I don't know) many of the people consider them to be one and the same. Either way, it's a reasonable point that you made. [0] - https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
- kaoD 8y agoI see what you mean too, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_d...
- ohyes 8y agoI can imagine that too. I can also imagine the cathedral being so iconic that a sense of national pride might take over to try to salvage anything possible.
- nkkollaw 8y agoI thought France was a post-national country, Macron said.
- sctb 8y agoYou've been posting a whole lot of unsubstantive comments recently. Could you please review the guidelines and stop? We ban accounts that won't post civilly and thoughtfully. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- nkkollaw 8y agoOK, sorry! I go back and forth between HN and Reddit, I guess I'm used to Reddit, will pay more attention.
- JustSomeNobody 8y agoI can easily imagine there are plenty of people who would risk it willingly.
- JshWright 8y agoIncluding anyone who signs up to be a firefighter...
- CydeWeys 8y agoI wouldn't think that any individual firefighters are being commanded to do it against their will. It's not the same as going into a burning building to save lives.
- agateau 8y agoParis firefighters are part of the French Army [1], so they are used to being commanded. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Fire_Brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Fire_Brigade
- CydeWeys 8y agoTo risk their lives to save things, though? That's what's at issue here.
- Scoundreller 8y agoAlthough structured that way, they recruit directly from the public, not from the ranks of the existing army. Dunno if you can transfer. If they get 8 months of training before employment, I kinda hope they spend more time on the theory and practice of firefighting than being a soldier.
- JshWright 8y agoI am a firefighter. Salvage operations are part of every fire (usually after the bulk of the fire is under control, but given sufficient manpower it also happens concurrently with fire attack operations). They're not going to take huge risks. Any environment that would be extremely dangerous would be an area where any art has already been destroyed.
- blotter_paper 8y agoThanks for your perspective.
- avip 8y agoFirefighter and sysadmin! Great mixture.
- StavrosK 8y agoAlso a paramedic and developer. You can imagine that the firefighting experience comes in handy a lot.
- jeffrallen 8y agoSwiss firefighters work on the four priorities of save lives, stop the fire, protect property from damage (including livestock), and protect the environment. Once lives and the spread of fire are under control, reducing the cost to the victims (emotional and financial) are why they are there.
- EthanHeilman 8y agoConsider the Syrian archaeologist that hid artifacts from ISIL and refused to give them up. He gave his life and was tortured to death to preserve those artifacts [0]. How many human lives and human energy went into Notre Dame? How many lives would its continued existence inspire? Humans are far more temporary than art and culture. Art and culture connects us to the people that came before us. [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33984006 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33984006
- tcgv 8y agoI guess it boils down to the question: Would you give your own life to save the artworks of Notre Dame? It's a pretty personal question. I admire the archaeologist you described, but I believe no one should feel obligated to do the same thing.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoEngaging in an activity with greater risk of killing you than usual is not the same as "giving one's life". These guys already fight fires for their day job. One more little bit of exposure to increased risk doesn't change the overall odds that much.
- tcgv 8y agoIndeed. I just thought of a better version for that question: How much risk would you be willing to take to save the artworks of Notre Dame? If there's even a small but significant risk to one's life then nobody should feel obligated to do it.
- InitialLastName 8y agoIf a friend of yours called you and said "Hey, can you come pick up this painting I love before my house gets demolished?" would you drive over to pick it up?
- baddox 8y ago
- Raphmedia 8y agoOne would think that they had a plan in place and some key pieces already scheduled to be saved in case of a fire. They probably stopped that operation once the fire spread to the totality of the structure. For a while, it was only in the roof since it started from the attic.
- alttab 8y agoThey had actually taken out many statues by crane just yesterday to protect from the ongoing restoration.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago>>I wonder how the firefighters feel about risking their lives for art This type of art is irreplaceable and art cannot walk away from the fire. At least we know it has zero chance of doing so, unless someone shows up
- beat 8y agoSure, if you don't care about art, or national pride, you might not get it. Put it this way... would you run into a burning building to try to save the Declaration of Independence? (Assuming you're an American) Would most firefighters? Seems reasonable to me. The art inside the Notre Dame is on that level of importance, to France and to civilization itself.
- philwelch 8y agoThe Declaration of Independence isn’t just a historical artifact; it’s an expression of ideas and beliefs that Americans have always fought and died for. Notre Dame is...was...a medieval Roman Catholic cathedral in a postmodern secular country, desecrated rather than revered by the revolutionaries who built modern France.
- Raphmedia 8y agoThere are reports of people gathering around the site and singing. It was more than simply an old catholic building for the population.
- philwelch 8y agoI’m not claiming the French people don’t care about Notre Dame. I’m merely observing that the analogy to the Declaration of Independence is significantly flawed. Notre Dame embodied ideas that modern France has repudiated rather than upheld.
- Raphmedia 8y agoHistory and culture are very important to the French people. Our Lady of Paris is one of the cores of the city. The country and government being secular does not mean that the people left their Catholic roots behind. Atheist and religious French people share similar values and the past is very important to both.
- beat 8y agoWhat's flawed about it? Are you saying firefighters wouldn't run into a burning building to save the original paper? To flip your point around, they'd save it because it's symbolically important. Same with the art in the Notre Dame.
- hk__2 8y agoThere’s no one in the building other than the firefighters so even if this were a choice there wouldn’t be any live to save.