9 ms·

Under-18s face 'like' and 'streaks' bans on social media

105 points by dustinmoris 8y ago

nickthemagicman 8y ago
How do you stop this? It will just encourage then to create fake accounts .
- smhenderson 8y ago
  Well the article says: To ensure its success, the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) says that online services must also adopt "robust" age-verification systems. My guess is they'll ask for a valid credit card before allowing users to access the interface for likes and such. Which, IMO anyway, means many less people will be liking things in the UK, not just under-18's. Then some clever kid will find a way to get around it and before you know it the only people liking anything will be kids under 18.
  - zachr 8y ago
    Everyone will just sneak their parents' cards. I know I would have.
    - Mindwipe 8y ago
      At least one of the age verification services being tested just validates the card number is formatted correctly (Twitter users have found out of date cards work very well). No need to sneak the cards when you can just google one tbh.
    - stickfigure 8y ago
      Or they can just ask? I would have no trouble helping my son work around dumb rules. "Here's another one of those situations where lying is appropriate. I hope you're learning to be a good judge of when it is and isn't. Yes, adults are pretty stupid sometimes."
      - edejong 8y ago
        As his guardian you limit your son's ability to legally retaliate in the future against possible coercive actions offered by said corporations, with its sole intention to form an addictive dependency to its users. It's like buying your son cigarettes. This shifts the responsibility from the supplier to the enabler (you). Will we in the near future reflect on this digital period, similar to how we now reflect on the era of dominance of cigarette manufacturers?
        josephorjoe 8y ago
        No one said being a parent is easy, but taking responsibility for these types of decisions is part of the job.
        edejong 8y ago
        I triggered on "work around dumb rules". Large institutions consulted by legal and behavioural experts, backed by decades of research come to the conclusion to severely restrict the effects of persuasive design on children. Taking the time to reflect on both sides of the argument without dismissing it as 'dumb rules', would be my interpretation of responsible guardianship. As we speak, persuasive design experts, applying behavioural psychology are having wreaking measureable, wide-scale deleterious effects on our youngest generation. Yes, I agree we should teach our children about these systems of control. At the same time, we should acknowledge that the effects are spanning wide ranges of our population, regardless of age, sex, income class and education level. Our society needs stronger controls to counter decades of psychological and sociological research, designed and funded for offensive purposes (psy-ops).
        FakeComments 8y ago
        There’s never been anything like the mass psyops of the past 100 years, and it’s not clear that such toxic memetic behavior can coexist with society. We’ve only seen three generations of impact, but it seems the deleterious effects are outpacing our ability to adapt. It’s possible PR will trigger a memetic mass extinction event. I’d encourage people here who work in marketing, public relations, or social media to seriously consider the systemic effects of what they’re doing.
  - judge2020 8y ago
    Not sure about the UK, but in the US you can get a bank account and debit card when your parents co-sign as early as age 14 (Bank of America). Is age something merchants get back from Visa/MC when you make a transaction?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - GrinningFool 8y ago
      Banks will often have multiple BIN's[1] assigned to them. When I was last in the industry ~10 years ago, it was typical to use the BIN to identify specific types of card within an institution, so it wasn't uncommon to see a single institution with multiple BINs. Something like that could be used to filter out such cards, if they were assigned a unique BIN by the bank. As to whether anyone actually _does_ that, I don't know. [1] The BIN is the first six digits of your card number. It identifies the originating bank, among other things: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bank-identification-number.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bank-identification-num...
    - smhenderson 8y ago
      I don't think the age verification systems used online will accept a debit card though and I don't think you can get a real credit card under 18 even with a parent authorizing or co-signing. Even though a debit card acts like a credit card under most circumstances where your available balance is effectively your "credit" limit but there are ways of telling the difference between a debit/check card and a real credit card.
    - xhedley 8y ago
      The merchant can definitely see whether a card is a debit card or a credit card. The charge structure and chargeback rules are different. A debit card is to spend money you already own, hence why a 14 year old or younger can have one. A credit card creates a debt - and in the UK debts incurred below the age of 18 are unenforceable in court. So no one will issue a credit card to a person under 18.
  - maccard 8y ago
    Good spot - this reeks of the same issue that the anti-porn bill [0] has, going straight for the "please, think of the children" approach. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/mar/16/uk-online-porn-age-verification-launch https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/mar/16/uk-online-po...
  - Sahhaese 8y ago
    Credit cards aren't really used for age verification purposes in the UK so I'm not sure why it would be accepted for this. Also, "All adults own a credit card" is far from a good assumption in general and credit card ownership is actually in decline in the UK so it would be bizarre to tie credit card ownership into this.
    - smhenderson 8y ago
      Oh I agree it’s a terrible way to do it. I live in the US where it’s used a lot for age verification. Didn’t realize it wasn’t more universal. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
    - msla 8y ago
      It's terrible. It's also the only thing which is possible. It's the streetlight fallacy, in other words: The drunk doesn't know where those damn car keys have gotten to, but they know that the only place the light's good enough to look is under the streetlight, so the keys must be under the streetlight.
- scohesc 8y ago
  I would say the best compromise would be something along the lines of having to send them government ID (which brings up a whole other ball of wax with privacy/data retention issues) - most teenagers might get a drivers license at 15-16 which I would subjectively say is close enough to adulthood to avoid these literal popularity contests online.
malvosenior 8y ago
What would be the best way to capitalize from a personal investment standpoint in what I can only imagine will be massive growth in VPN usage? The EU and UK are going to end up cutting off large swaths of the internet from their population but I have no doubt people will still want unfettered internet access. Are there any publicly traded VPN providers?
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  I'd say your best bet is probably waiting for CloudFlare to IPO. They're teasing a 1.1.1.1 branded VPN just recently.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    Thank you, exactly what I was looking for!
  - judge2020 8y ago
    Note that the Cloudflare 1^4 'Warp' VPN won't be a "get around country blocks" VPN.
  - Mindwipe 8y ago
    CloudFlare were extremely vague about where the end points of their VPN service would occur though. They said it "wasn't intended for circumventing geofiltering", which is fair enough, but that suggests it would have end points in your own country. In which case it's unlikely to be helpful against the UK's increasingly insane, authoritarian government.
- ytNumbers 8y ago
  Don't view any such purchase as a long term investment. It probably won't be long before the UK government demands that ISPs block all VPN usage. It looks increasingly likely that many western countries will soon be taking a Chinese-style approach towards the internet. There's always some small benefit to restricting liberty, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
  - 8y ago
zachr 8y ago
Some of this is definitely good. Requiring companies to use plain and truthful language when describing privacy-affecting settings is a great step, and apps/services shouldn't try to hide the "continue without enabling" button. With that said, requiring different rules for children seriously increases barriers to entry for new services hoping to attract users in areas where these rules take effect, and kids will ALWAYS find ways around it. Nudges like snap streaks and the Like button encourage daily active use, but they also encourage actual social interaction between people to some degree. Additionally, nudges like the Like button or Snapstreaks, though they do encourage a potentially unhealthy relationship with technology, also encourage social interaction with peers. It's certainly more complicated than "these are bad!"
- scoutt 8y ago
  >> plain and truthful language It always ends up with "we do something to make your experiences better", to "help us continually protect and improve your experience", etc. I'll be rather explaining along the lines "we're a corporation, we have shares to sustain and employees to pay, so we're going to milk you and your personal information for our sole benefit. You have to know that it will be better for you if you don't make it easy for us to do so".
- SanderSantema 8y ago
  I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. Until about a year ago I myself was one of the under 18’s and although I myself have never had a “streak” or used social media much in general I do have some experience with these kind of things because I see my friends and peers partake in these kind of things. What I mostly see is that the upkeep of a streak consists of sending a black photo with some text on it like “goodnight” and then it being sent to dozens of people. Not much comes from it other than maintaining a streak. So not a lot of social interraction in that case, more so a reward for substanceless and ultimately unrewarding behaviour. Even more so, I saw my peers getting distracted from actual social interaction IRL by these kind of things. I don’t think social interaction has anything to do with things like streaks or other addictive nudges. I think the most that is needed for social interaction is a chat client (or voice for that matter) and the ability to send photo’s or use a webcam. It shouldn’t be more than that. Other things often get in the way of real social interaction be it online or offline.
linuxasheviller 8y ago
+1 for taming the addictive nature of social media. -1000 for trying to do this with age-based restrictions. Kids will get around it. Kids SHOULD get around it. Gating content based on age does. not. work. Source: every teenage kid ever.
- cirgue 8y ago
  Also, the notion that dark UI patterns are exploitative of teenagers but acceptable for adults is ridiculous. Plenty of adults are just as (if not more-so) vulnerable to these things than kids.
  - L_226 8y ago
    The same holds true for e.g. smoking. The idea is to prevent exposure to the still developing brain (psuedo-arbitrarily defined as under 18), and that exposure after this age is purely an informed descision by a consenting adult. Should legislation require that __all__ exploitative mechanisms be banned forever?
    - chaosite 8y ago
      Yes. See? Ask an easy question, get an easy answer.
      - izzydata 8y ago
        I agree, but good luck defining it. You will also get the hordes of people defending their right to be exploited.
        dustinmoris 8y ago
        This will only be a temporary issue which will disappear with the generation which will resist the most. Most behavioural changes and changes to the norm just need to wait until the first generation dies out and to all subsequent generations this will be the only norm they ever knew. A great example is smoking in public places in Europe. The people who think this restricts their freedom is slowly disappearing. Most young people and new generations find it normal that smoking in public places is prohibited and they would resist if someone was to try to change that now.
OliverJones 8y ago
Interesting white-hat application of behavioral economics. It's no surprise this is happening in UK. Based on Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler's book "Nudge," the UK set up a behavioral economics team charged with helping British subjects interact with their government. They had some notable successes. That's now called The Behavioural Insights Team. https://www.bi.team/ https://www.bi.team/ It's possible their national experience led them to adopt new rules against black-hat UX (tiny gray opt-out buttons, etc.) User experience standards based on behavioral economics principles might be a very productive route to improving social media. It's CERTAINLY worth a try.
tibyat 8y ago
this is fantastic. good to see government doing their job, even when it means standing up to corporations.
randomacct3847 8y ago
Anyone else feel like tech workers are now bucketed in “just show me the money” and “oh my god what have I enabled” groups?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
gibolt 8y ago
The number of 18 year olds in the UK is about to skyrocket. Tangent Rant - Mobile back button is completely non-functional.
- doubleunplussed 8y ago
  I thought the back button was one of those intermediate-page-with-a-redirect situations, but even a quick double tap of the back button does absolutely nothing. How is this even possible?
nickcw 8y ago
In my opinion this would be best applied to everyone not just the under 18s. That would go a long way to taking some of the addictive behaviours out of social media. Probably not a popular opinion though, either with the users, or with the companies that run the social media platforms.
- IanCal 8y ago
  It's what the ICO suggests too.
grawprog 8y ago
Much of that seems reasonable but wouldn't this: >To ensure its success, the ICO added that online services must also adopt "robust" age-verification systems. Imply that ID of some kind would be required to use certain features of different sites? It seems like this part in particular is another attack on internet anonymity.
- Barrin92 8y ago
  I don't see a good reason why anonymity should be a good default for social networks in particular. It's quite literally in the name, the primary function is social interaction. The idea that anonymity should be guaranteed on every website, in every context without justification needs to be argued for, it's not self evident.
  - grawprog 8y ago
    So, you provide your ID to everyone you have a social interaction with? For example, there's someone I've known for about two years and talk to regularly, we know a fair bit about eachother's lives. I was thinking the other day though and realized, we've never introduced ourselves to to eachother. We've never actually told eachother our names, yet every time we see eachother we talk like old friends. Or there's plenty of parties where i've socially interacted with people without ever knowing or giving a name. For the most part, at least partial anonymity is up to the choice of the participants for in person social interaction, why should the internet be different? It's not like most privately owned public spaces require ID for you to talk to people inside of them. Bars and such I guess being an exception, but that's because they serve liquor and some bars depending on where you are or what event will actually still allow minors in without serving them, so they could technically interact. My first concert was at an all ages show in a bar as a teenager.
    - Barrin92 8y ago
      >For the most part, at least partial anonymity is up to the choice of the participants for in person social interaction, why should the internet be different? the internet isn't different. But Facebook isn't 'the internet', Facebook is a commercial public platform. I fully expect to not be anonymous when I engage with any commercial platform,be it online or offline, the only places where I expect full anonymity are places I own, where no liability or implications for third parties exist. You can have those on the internet, but they're not commercial, centralised social media websites where people, with their posts, face the public. Facebook in this example is exactly like a bar or a townsquare, and not like my private home.
DINKDINK 8y ago
What are people's expectations of the effectiveness and the iatrogenics of this policy? Before alcohol prohibition in the United States, most alcohol consumption was low-proof/ABV drinks (such as beers). The introduction of prohibition attenuated some demand for alcohol but created a black market for those still wishing to consume. Black-market suppliers shifted alcohol production to higher ABV/proof alcohols to mitigate risks and increase profits. The results was increased consumption in spirits and other more damaging alcohols. The same phenomenon occurred during the US's 1970s "War on Drugs" milder drugs such as cannabis were outlawed, suppliers shift to more profitable and potent drugs, consumer preferences change, more addictive and damaging drugs are consumed (e.g. Fentanyl). Social-media moralizers "save the children" with prohibitions -> marginal demand is attenuated but persists -> satisfaction is attained through less preferable way to the individual. Humans are risk averse given relative options. Given the choice they will opt for the least damaging vice satisfier. Denied that option, preference shifts up the risk ladder. I don't think social media is healthy or advisable without moderation but the "solutions" will cause more harm than if left alone. A treatment that's beneficial on the individual level is all but guaranteed to be detrimental on the aggregate: "The country's average mass is overweight! Everyone is now mandated to skip one meal a day until we are at an acceptable weight" kills malnourished people
- ared38 8y ago
  But while spirits became a larger share of alcohol consumed, "per capita annual consumption [immediately after the repeal of prohibition] stood at 1.2 US gallons (4.5 liters), less than half the level of the pre-Prohibition period". Likewise, "[d]eath rates from cirrhosis and alcoholism, alcoholic psychosis hospital admissions, and drunkenness arrests all declined steeply". In short, prohibition worked as a public health policy. You can't just point out that something will cause unintended consequences. You have to actually weight them against the benefits the policy provides. Obviously fewer potheads for more heroin addicts was a bade trade, but fewer cigarette smokers for a slightly larger black market has proven to be a great one. We haven't seen the nicotine equivalent of fentanyl your "risk ladder" model predicts. > A treatment that's beneficial on the individual level is all but guaranteed to be detrimental on the aggregate: "The country's average mass is overweight! Everyone is now mandated to skip one meal a day until we are at an acceptable weight" kills malnourished people This Ayn Rand fever dream ignores the fact that the government has tons of policies that are beneficial on the individual level: banning trans fats, mandating nutrition labels, and taxing sodas just to name a few. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/
hankhill 8y ago
Nice subtle sensationalizing there, pal. Actual title: "Under-18s face 'like' and 'streaks' limits on social media"
gcthomas 8y ago
Despite many posts criticising the recommendations, the ICO _doesn't recommend age verification_ as a solution. From the actual document: > 2. Age-appropriate application: Consider the age range of your audience and the needs of children of different ages. Apply the standards in this code to all users, unless you have robust age-verification mechanisms to distinguish adults from children. The commissioner is saying that the companies should make the sites adhere to the rules covering children, with a get out IF some new age verification system could be developed.
- a1369209993 8y ago
  Less bad then expected then, although adding a get-out-of-consumer-protection-free clause for sites that commit age discrimination isn't all that much of a improvement.
  - IanCal 8y ago
    There's no such thing, just stricter requirements for how you treat children. There are absolutely still requirements for how you treat adults.
huffmsa 8y ago
Just ban the internet already England. You're 75% there already.
JohnClark1337 8y ago
That's fine. The Facebook account is just the secondary account they keep running so their parents think that they are "good little angels".
sandov 8y ago
Sad to think that the Internet is becoming increasingly censored by many governments. Maybe the Unabomber was right ,and you can't have technology and freedom at the same time. People just don't like freedom when it affects them negatively or benefits someone other than themselves.
- meesles 8y ago
  That's always been the case, right? Freedom of speech, EXCEPT when it directly negatively affects the person due to reputation or fear. Freedom to protest, as long as it isn't interfering with certain government functions and you aren't messing with the police. I think as a society, it's our job to figure out the best balance of freedom and security. People are all up and down the spectrum, so you'll never make everyone happy anyway.
totierne2 8y ago
Any recommended legal social networks for a 12.5 year old? What are the legal hurdles for starting one with no advertising, or unnecessary tracking? (Dublin Ireland). Too retro to go IRC?
throw2016 8y ago
It's interesting to understand what is happening internally in these social media companies engaging in blatantly shady and unethical behavior. Its more than weird that inspite of HN being a place where many of these individuals are there is little to no discussion on the actual forces and pressures at work driving these decisions, are there ethical dilemmas, difficult decisions? Because there is nearly nothing on this discussion wise or whistle blowers that would suggest this is something people working inside these companies are grappling with. If this does not concern engineers its unlikely discussion on issues being raised by outsiders and regulatory bodies are going to lead to any kind of productive discussion beyond dilution and denial.

105 points by dustinmoris 8y ago

nickthemagicman 8y ago

How do you stop this? It will just encourage then to create fake accounts .

smhenderson 8y ago
Well the article says: To ensure its success, the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) says that online services must also adopt "robust" age-verification systems. My guess is they'll ask for a valid credit card before allowing users to access the interface for likes and such. Which, IMO anyway, means many less people will be liking things in the UK, not just under-18's. Then some clever kid will find a way to get around it and before you know it the only people liking anything will be kids under 18.
- zachr 8y ago
  Everyone will just sneak their parents' cards. I know I would have.
  - Mindwipe 8y ago
    At least one of the age verification services being tested just validates the card number is formatted correctly (Twitter users have found out of date cards work very well). No need to sneak the cards when you can just google one tbh.
  - stickfigure 8y ago
    Or they can just ask? I would have no trouble helping my son work around dumb rules. "Here's another one of those situations where lying is appropriate. I hope you're learning to be a good judge of when it is and isn't. Yes, adults are pretty stupid sometimes."
    - edejong 8y ago
      As his guardian you limit your son's ability to legally retaliate in the future against possible coercive actions offered by said corporations, with its sole intention to form an addictive dependency to its users. It's like buying your son cigarettes. This shifts the responsibility from the supplier to the enabler (you). Will we in the near future reflect on this digital period, similar to how we now reflect on the era of dominance of cigarette manufacturers?
      - josephorjoe 8y ago
        No one said being a parent is easy, but taking responsibility for these types of decisions is part of the job.
        edejong 8y ago
        I triggered on "work around dumb rules". Large institutions consulted by legal and behavioural experts, backed by decades of research come to the conclusion to severely restrict the effects of persuasive design on children. Taking the time to reflect on both sides of the argument without dismissing it as 'dumb rules', would be my interpretation of responsible guardianship. As we speak, persuasive design experts, applying behavioural psychology are having wreaking measureable, wide-scale deleterious effects on our youngest generation. Yes, I agree we should teach our children about these systems of control. At the same time, we should acknowledge that the effects are spanning wide ranges of our population, regardless of age, sex, income class and education level. Our society needs stronger controls to counter decades of psychological and sociological research, designed and funded for offensive purposes (psy-ops).
        FakeComments 8y ago
        There’s never been anything like the mass psyops of the past 100 years, and it’s not clear that such toxic memetic behavior can coexist with society. We’ve only seen three generations of impact, but it seems the deleterious effects are outpacing our ability to adapt. It’s possible PR will trigger a memetic mass extinction event. I’d encourage people here who work in marketing, public relations, or social media to seriously consider the systemic effects of what they’re doing.
- judge2020 8y ago
  Not sure about the UK, but in the US you can get a bank account and debit card when your parents co-sign as early as age 14 (Bank of America). Is age something merchants get back from Visa/MC when you make a transaction?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - GrinningFool 8y ago
    Banks will often have multiple BIN's[1] assigned to them. When I was last in the industry ~10 years ago, it was typical to use the BIN to identify specific types of card within an institution, so it wasn't uncommon to see a single institution with multiple BINs. Something like that could be used to filter out such cards, if they were assigned a unique BIN by the bank. As to whether anyone actually _does_ that, I don't know. [1] The BIN is the first six digits of your card number. It identifies the originating bank, among other things: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bank-identification-number.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bank-identification-num...
  - smhenderson 8y ago
    I don't think the age verification systems used online will accept a debit card though and I don't think you can get a real credit card under 18 even with a parent authorizing or co-signing. Even though a debit card acts like a credit card under most circumstances where your available balance is effectively your "credit" limit but there are ways of telling the difference between a debit/check card and a real credit card.
  - xhedley 8y ago
    The merchant can definitely see whether a card is a debit card or a credit card. The charge structure and chargeback rules are different. A debit card is to spend money you already own, hence why a 14 year old or younger can have one. A credit card creates a debt - and in the UK debts incurred below the age of 18 are unenforceable in court. So no one will issue a credit card to a person under 18.
- maccard 8y ago
  Good spot - this reeks of the same issue that the anti-porn bill [0] has, going straight for the "please, think of the children" approach. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/mar/16/uk-online-porn-age-verification-launch https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/mar/16/uk-online-po...
- Sahhaese 8y ago
  Credit cards aren't really used for age verification purposes in the UK so I'm not sure why it would be accepted for this. Also, "All adults own a credit card" is far from a good assumption in general and credit card ownership is actually in decline in the UK so it would be bizarre to tie credit card ownership into this.
  - smhenderson 8y ago
    Oh I agree it’s a terrible way to do it. I live in the US where it’s used a lot for age verification. Didn’t realize it wasn’t more universal. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
  - msla 8y ago
    It's terrible. It's also the only thing which is possible. It's the streetlight fallacy, in other words: The drunk doesn't know where those damn car keys have gotten to, but they know that the only place the light's good enough to look is under the streetlight, so the keys must be under the streetlight.
scohesc 8y ago
I would say the best compromise would be something along the lines of having to send them government ID (which brings up a whole other ball of wax with privacy/data retention issues) - most teenagers might get a drivers license at 15-16 which I would subjectively say is close enough to adulthood to avoid these literal popularity contests online.

malvosenior 8y ago

What would be the best way to capitalize from a personal investment standpoint in what I can only imagine will be massive growth in VPN usage? The EU and UK are going to end up cutting off large swaths of the internet from their population but I have no doubt people will still want unfettered internet access. Are there any publicly traded VPN providers?

ceejayoz 8y ago
I'd say your best bet is probably waiting for CloudFlare to IPO. They're teasing a 1.1.1.1 branded VPN just recently.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  Thank you, exactly what I was looking for!
- judge2020 8y ago
  Note that the Cloudflare 1^4 'Warp' VPN won't be a "get around country blocks" VPN.
- Mindwipe 8y ago
  CloudFlare were extremely vague about where the end points of their VPN service would occur though. They said it "wasn't intended for circumventing geofiltering", which is fair enough, but that suggests it would have end points in your own country. In which case it's unlikely to be helpful against the UK's increasingly insane, authoritarian government.
ytNumbers 8y ago
Don't view any such purchase as a long term investment. It probably won't be long before the UK government demands that ISPs block all VPN usage. It looks increasingly likely that many western countries will soon be taking a Chinese-style approach towards the internet. There's always some small benefit to restricting liberty, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
- 8y ago

zachr 8y ago

Some of this is definitely good. Requiring companies to use plain and truthful language when describing privacy-affecting settings is a great step, and apps/services shouldn't try to hide the "continue without enabling" button. With that said, requiring different rules for children seriously increases barriers to entry for new services hoping to attract users in areas where these rules take effect, and kids will ALWAYS find ways around it. Nudges like snap streaks and the Like button encourage daily active use, but they also encourage actual social interaction between people to some degree. Additionally, nudges like the Like button or Snapstreaks, though they do encourage a potentially unhealthy relationship with technology, also encourage social interaction with peers. It's certainly more complicated than "these are bad!"

scoutt 8y ago
>> plain and truthful language It always ends up with "we do something to make your experiences better", to "help us continually protect and improve your experience", etc. I'll be rather explaining along the lines "we're a corporation, we have shares to sustain and employees to pay, so we're going to milk you and your personal information for our sole benefit. You have to know that it will be better for you if you don't make it easy for us to do so".
SanderSantema 8y ago
I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. Until about a year ago I myself was one of the under 18’s and although I myself have never had a “streak” or used social media much in general I do have some experience with these kind of things because I see my friends and peers partake in these kind of things. What I mostly see is that the upkeep of a streak consists of sending a black photo with some text on it like “goodnight” and then it being sent to dozens of people. Not much comes from it other than maintaining a streak. So not a lot of social interraction in that case, more so a reward for substanceless and ultimately unrewarding behaviour. Even more so, I saw my peers getting distracted from actual social interaction IRL by these kind of things. I don’t think social interaction has anything to do with things like streaks or other addictive nudges. I think the most that is needed for social interaction is a chat client (or voice for that matter) and the ability to send photo’s or use a webcam. It shouldn’t be more than that. Other things often get in the way of real social interaction be it online or offline.

linuxasheviller 8y ago

+1 for taming the addictive nature of social media. -1000 for trying to do this with age-based restrictions. Kids will get around it. Kids SHOULD get around it. Gating content based on age does. not. work. Source: every teenage kid ever.

cirgue 8y ago
Also, the notion that dark UI patterns are exploitative of teenagers but acceptable for adults is ridiculous. Plenty of adults are just as (if not more-so) vulnerable to these things than kids.
- L_226 8y ago
  The same holds true for e.g. smoking. The idea is to prevent exposure to the still developing brain (psuedo-arbitrarily defined as under 18), and that exposure after this age is purely an informed descision by a consenting adult. Should legislation require that __all__ exploitative mechanisms be banned forever?
  - chaosite 8y ago
    Yes. See? Ask an easy question, get an easy answer.
    - izzydata 8y ago
      I agree, but good luck defining it. You will also get the hordes of people defending their right to be exploited.
      - dustinmoris 8y ago
        This will only be a temporary issue which will disappear with the generation which will resist the most. Most behavioural changes and changes to the norm just need to wait until the first generation dies out and to all subsequent generations this will be the only norm they ever knew. A great example is smoking in public places in Europe. The people who think this restricts their freedom is slowly disappearing. Most young people and new generations find it normal that smoking in public places is prohibited and they would resist if someone was to try to change that now.

OliverJones 8y ago

Interesting white-hat application of behavioral economics. It's no surprise this is happening in UK. Based on Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler's book "Nudge," the UK set up a behavioral economics team charged with helping British subjects interact with their government. They had some notable successes. That's now called The Behavioural Insights Team. https://www.bi.team/ https://www.bi.team/ It's possible their national experience led them to adopt new rules against black-hat UX (tiny gray opt-out buttons, etc.) User experience standards based on behavioral economics principles might be a very productive route to improving social media. It's CERTAINLY worth a try.

tibyat 8y ago

this is fantastic. good to see government doing their job, even when it means standing up to corporations.

randomacct3847 8y ago

Anyone else feel like tech workers are now bucketed in “just show me the money” and “oh my god what have I enabled” groups?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

gibolt 8y ago

The number of 18 year olds in the UK is about to skyrocket. Tangent Rant - Mobile back button is completely non-functional.

doubleunplussed 8y ago
I thought the back button was one of those intermediate-page-with-a-redirect situations, but even a quick double tap of the back button does absolutely nothing. How is this even possible?

nickcw 8y ago

In my opinion this would be best applied to everyone not just the under 18s. That would go a long way to taking some of the addictive behaviours out of social media. Probably not a popular opinion though, either with the users, or with the companies that run the social media platforms.

IanCal 8y ago
It's what the ICO suggests too.

grawprog 8y ago

Much of that seems reasonable but wouldn't this: >To ensure its success, the ICO added that online services must also adopt "robust" age-verification systems. Imply that ID of some kind would be required to use certain features of different sites? It seems like this part in particular is another attack on internet anonymity.

Barrin92 8y ago
I don't see a good reason why anonymity should be a good default for social networks in particular. It's quite literally in the name, the primary function is social interaction. The idea that anonymity should be guaranteed on every website, in every context without justification needs to be argued for, it's not self evident.
- grawprog 8y ago
  So, you provide your ID to everyone you have a social interaction with? For example, there's someone I've known for about two years and talk to regularly, we know a fair bit about eachother's lives. I was thinking the other day though and realized, we've never introduced ourselves to to eachother. We've never actually told eachother our names, yet every time we see eachother we talk like old friends. Or there's plenty of parties where i've socially interacted with people without ever knowing or giving a name. For the most part, at least partial anonymity is up to the choice of the participants for in person social interaction, why should the internet be different? It's not like most privately owned public spaces require ID for you to talk to people inside of them. Bars and such I guess being an exception, but that's because they serve liquor and some bars depending on where you are or what event will actually still allow minors in without serving them, so they could technically interact. My first concert was at an all ages show in a bar as a teenager.
  - Barrin92 8y ago
    >For the most part, at least partial anonymity is up to the choice of the participants for in person social interaction, why should the internet be different? the internet isn't different. But Facebook isn't 'the internet', Facebook is a commercial public platform. I fully expect to not be anonymous when I engage with any commercial platform,be it online or offline, the only places where I expect full anonymity are places I own, where no liability or implications for third parties exist. You can have those on the internet, but they're not commercial, centralised social media websites where people, with their posts, face the public. Facebook in this example is exactly like a bar or a townsquare, and not like my private home.

DINKDINK 8y ago

What are people's expectations of the effectiveness and the iatrogenics of this policy? Before alcohol prohibition in the United States, most alcohol consumption was low-proof/ABV drinks (such as beers). The introduction of prohibition attenuated some demand for alcohol but created a black market for those still wishing to consume. Black-market suppliers shifted alcohol production to higher ABV/proof alcohols to mitigate risks and increase profits. The results was increased consumption in spirits and other more damaging alcohols. The same phenomenon occurred during the US's 1970s "War on Drugs" milder drugs such as cannabis were outlawed, suppliers shift to more profitable and potent drugs, consumer preferences change, more addictive and damaging drugs are consumed (e.g. Fentanyl). Social-media moralizers "save the children" with prohibitions -> marginal demand is attenuated but persists -> satisfaction is attained through less preferable way to the individual. Humans are risk averse given relative options. Given the choice they will opt for the least damaging vice satisfier. Denied that option, preference shifts up the risk ladder. I don't think social media is healthy or advisable without moderation but the "solutions" will cause more harm than if left alone. A treatment that's beneficial on the individual level is all but guaranteed to be detrimental on the aggregate: "The country's average mass is overweight! Everyone is now mandated to skip one meal a day until we are at an acceptable weight" kills malnourished people

ared38 8y ago
But while spirits became a larger share of alcohol consumed, "per capita annual consumption [immediately after the repeal of prohibition] stood at 1.2 US gallons (4.5 liters), less than half the level of the pre-Prohibition period". Likewise, "[d]eath rates from cirrhosis and alcoholism, alcoholic psychosis hospital admissions, and drunkenness arrests all declined steeply". In short, prohibition worked as a public health policy. You can't just point out that something will cause unintended consequences. You have to actually weight them against the benefits the policy provides. Obviously fewer potheads for more heroin addicts was a bade trade, but fewer cigarette smokers for a slightly larger black market has proven to be a great one. We haven't seen the nicotine equivalent of fentanyl your "risk ladder" model predicts. > A treatment that's beneficial on the individual level is all but guaranteed to be detrimental on the aggregate: "The country's average mass is overweight! Everyone is now mandated to skip one meal a day until we are at an acceptable weight" kills malnourished people This Ayn Rand fever dream ignores the fact that the government has tons of policies that are beneficial on the individual level: banning trans fats, mandating nutrition labels, and taxing sodas just to name a few. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/

hankhill 8y ago

Nice subtle sensationalizing there, pal. Actual title: "Under-18s face 'like' and 'streaks' limits on social media"

gcthomas 8y ago

Despite many posts criticising the recommendations, the ICO _doesn't recommend age verification_ as a solution. From the actual document: > 2. Age-appropriate application: Consider the age range of your audience and the needs of children of different ages. Apply the standards in this code to all users, unless you have robust age-verification mechanisms to distinguish adults from children. The commissioner is saying that the companies should make the sites adhere to the rules covering children, with a get out IF some new age verification system could be developed.

a1369209993 8y ago
Less bad then expected then, although adding a get-out-of-consumer-protection-free clause for sites that commit age discrimination isn't all that much of a improvement.
- IanCal 8y ago
  There's no such thing, just stricter requirements for how you treat children. There are absolutely still requirements for how you treat adults.

huffmsa 8y ago

Just ban the internet already England. You're 75% there already.

JohnClark1337 8y ago

That's fine. The Facebook account is just the secondary account they keep running so their parents think that they are "good little angels".

sandov 8y ago

Sad to think that the Internet is becoming increasingly censored by many governments. Maybe the Unabomber was right ,and you can't have technology and freedom at the same time. People just don't like freedom when it affects them negatively or benefits someone other than themselves.

meesles 8y ago
That's always been the case, right? Freedom of speech, EXCEPT when it directly negatively affects the person due to reputation or fear. Freedom to protest, as long as it isn't interfering with certain government functions and you aren't messing with the police. I think as a society, it's our job to figure out the best balance of freedom and security. People are all up and down the spectrum, so you'll never make everyone happy anyway.

totierne2 8y ago

Any recommended legal social networks for a 12.5 year old? What are the legal hurdles for starting one with no advertising, or unnecessary tracking? (Dublin Ireland). Too retro to go IRC?

throw2016 8y ago

It's interesting to understand what is happening internally in these social media companies engaging in blatantly shady and unethical behavior. Its more than weird that inspite of HN being a place where many of these individuals are there is little to no discussion on the actual forces and pressures at work driving these decisions, are there ethical dilemmas, difficult decisions? Because there is nearly nothing on this discussion wise or whistle blowers that would suggest this is something people working inside these companies are grappling with. If this does not concern engineers its unlikely discussion on issues being raised by outsiders and regulatory bodies are going to lead to any kind of productive discussion beyond dilution and denial.