5 ms·

Has nobody any real understanding of the nature and depth of organised crime? No, I do not want to have the IRS do all the work of promoting the juiciest targe

by mmjaa 7y ago

Has nobody any real understanding of the nature and depth of organised crime? No, I do not want to have the IRS do all the work of promoting the juiciest targets to the top of the mafia's hit lists. This idea is nonsense. Want to solve the tax-avoidance problem? Stop taxing income - tax spending. Jealousy over other peoples incomes, fairly or unfairly gained, will never result in a fair system for all, and this is the basis of income tax - whereas taxing people for spending will result in us all contributing taxes to society fairly.

kartan 7y ago
> This idea is nonsense. You have a valid point. But, this system works in other countries. People is able to ask for other citizens taxes. But, the person "investigated" gets a notification of whom asked fir its tax returns. > Stop taxing income - tax spending. This makes very easy to accumulate wealth and it is difficult to apply progressive taxing. > Jealousy over other peoples incomes, fairly or unfairly gained, will never result in a fair system for all Capitalism is based in information. Without information citizens cannot take good decisions. And that is why there is people earning very low salaries for the same jobs that others are getting a good pay. I personally do not think that jealousy plays a role here. I know that my boss makes more money that me. That may cause jealousy. If my college does the same job that me (or worse) and I get paid less I can leave for another company. If another company pays more than mine, I can leave. If I am very good paid, I will appreciate it more as I know the market. To hide salaries is as reasonable as to hide product prices. It will break the system.
- matwood 7y ago
  > If my college does the same job that me (or worse) and I get paid less I can leave for another company. If another company pays more than mine, I can leave. You're quite rational. Based on my experience, money is one of those things where emotions take over for many people. I agree it should work the way you want it to work, but I'm not sure it could in practice across the general population.
- fritzball 7y ago
  People like to think they’re equal in ability even when they’re not. In theory explaining to someone that their performance is lower may open the door to help them improve so they too can make more money in the ‘same’ job. This presupposes that they’re are rational, intelligent, and can handle bad news. If this were the case then they probably wouldn’t have been a poor performer to begin with.
  - kartan 7y ago
    > This presupposes that they’re are rational, intelligent, and can handle bad news. Yes. People makes mistakes. But this is the same rationality to forbid democracy. And even in its imperfection it is a good system. Let people know and as a society we will learn how to use that information. So, yes. Some people will want more money. But, the company still can say no to them if the rise they ask for is unreasonable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
fritzball 7y ago
I’m a stealth rich person, a public outing would require me to move to a wealthy ghetto for my safety. I would lament the extra expense and the plights of the poor and middle class will be further away.
matwood 7y ago
> Jealousy over other peoples incomes I think people downplay the seriousness of this issue. Instead looking inward "how can I make more money" many people look outward "why is so and so making more, they should make less". Is the population as a whole ready to live in a what is effectively a pro-sports environment and be reminded every day they are valued $X less than so and so. Through experience of managing people who have made more than me I've learned that I'm ok with the information. But, people in general are super weird about money. I've seen other people be really bothered because someone made just a bit more than them without ever stopping to think why. I also have friends that I can have frank conversations about our salaries, but other friends who I have to avoid the conversation completely.
- mikeash 7y ago
  I wonder about cause and effect here. Would those attitudes persist in a world where everyone’s income is public information? Maybe people are weird about other people’s salaries because it’s so unusual to know what they are.
  - mmjaa 7y ago
    If people had the right to choose whether they want to publish their income, this is one thing. Its a good thing to recognise those who choose this option. For the fact of attitudes persisting, it is a matter of values. Values across the language-/culture- barrier gap, are equated, causatively in realtime by the people of the cultures, according to a near-infinite set of whim. Religions are a form of this whim, as are governments, and many, many other institutions, incapable also of crossing the language-/culture- barrier gap, settle on the easy way out: "dollar-*" value. Alas, this is the nature of the materialist beast. I'm quite okay with people knowing each others salaries, if they are expected to work with each other. No really successful group survives its internal secrecy liabilities, at least not for long, imho .. +EDIT: cause/effect? I think it's both. Across a multitude of impinging factors.
  - matwood 7y ago
    That's a good question, and it is probably some of getting used to something. It also means getting used to some answers people may not want to hear. When Timmy asks why Sue makes more money and their boss has to say that Sue is better than Timmy, that's going to be quite an ego blow. In theory this should make everyone better, but practice is different. I used professional sports earlier because I think that is a good example. There is very little hiding there, and people know who is better for the most part. Jiu Jitsu is a great example IMO because it's person vs. person. You can tell a lot about someones personality the first time to roll with someone. When they get beat (which they will - even by someone who is physically weaker), do they get mad or do they get excited to learn how it happened? The former never comes back because their ego will not allow it, and the later wants to learn how it was done.

by mmjaa 7y ago

kartan 7y ago

> This idea is nonsense. You have a valid point. But, this system works in other countries. People is able to ask for other citizens taxes. But, the person "investigated" gets a notification of whom asked fir its tax returns. > Stop taxing income - tax spending. This makes very easy to accumulate wealth and it is difficult to apply progressive taxing. > Jealousy over other peoples incomes, fairly or unfairly gained, will never result in a fair system for all Capitalism is based in information. Without information citizens cannot take good decisions. And that is why there is people earning very low salaries for the same jobs that others are getting a good pay. I personally do not think that jealousy plays a role here. I know that my boss makes more money that me. That may cause jealousy. If my college does the same job that me (or worse) and I get paid less I can leave for another company. If another company pays more than mine, I can leave. If I am very good paid, I will appreciate it more as I know the market. To hide salaries is as reasonable as to hide product prices. It will break the system.

matwood 7y ago
> If my college does the same job that me (or worse) and I get paid less I can leave for another company. If another company pays more than mine, I can leave. You're quite rational. Based on my experience, money is one of those things where emotions take over for many people. I agree it should work the way you want it to work, but I'm not sure it could in practice across the general population.
fritzball 7y ago
People like to think they’re equal in ability even when they’re not. In theory explaining to someone that their performance is lower may open the door to help them improve so they too can make more money in the ‘same’ job. This presupposes that they’re are rational, intelligent, and can handle bad news. If this were the case then they probably wouldn’t have been a poor performer to begin with.
- kartan 7y ago
  > This presupposes that they’re are rational, intelligent, and can handle bad news. Yes. People makes mistakes. But this is the same rationality to forbid democracy. And even in its imperfection it is a good system. Let people know and as a society we will learn how to use that information. So, yes. Some people will want more money. But, the company still can say no to them if the rise they ask for is unreasonable.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

fritzball 7y ago

I’m a stealth rich person, a public outing would require me to move to a wealthy ghetto for my safety. I would lament the extra expense and the plights of the poor and middle class will be further away.

matwood 7y ago

> Jealousy over other peoples incomes I think people downplay the seriousness of this issue. Instead looking inward "how can I make more money" many people look outward "why is so and so making more, they should make less". Is the population as a whole ready to live in a what is effectively a pro-sports environment and be reminded every day they are valued $X less than so and so. Through experience of managing people who have made more than me I've learned that I'm ok with the information. But, people in general are super weird about money. I've seen other people be really bothered because someone made just a bit more than them without ever stopping to think why. I also have friends that I can have frank conversations about our salaries, but other friends who I have to avoid the conversation completely.

mikeash 7y ago
I wonder about cause and effect here. Would those attitudes persist in a world where everyone’s income is public information? Maybe people are weird about other people’s salaries because it’s so unusual to know what they are.
- mmjaa 7y ago
  If people had the right to choose whether they want to publish their income, this is one thing. Its a good thing to recognise those who choose this option. For the fact of attitudes persisting, it is a matter of values. Values across the language-/culture- barrier gap, are equated, causatively in realtime by the people of the cultures, according to a near-infinite set of whim. Religions are a form of this whim, as are governments, and many, many other institutions, incapable also of crossing the language-/culture- barrier gap, settle on the easy way out: "dollar-*" value. Alas, this is the nature of the materialist beast. I'm quite okay with people knowing each others salaries, if they are expected to work with each other. No really successful group survives its internal secrecy liabilities, at least not for long, imho .. +EDIT: cause/effect? I think it's both. Across a multitude of impinging factors.
- matwood 7y ago
  That's a good question, and it is probably some of getting used to something. It also means getting used to some answers people may not want to hear. When Timmy asks why Sue makes more money and their boss has to say that Sue is better than Timmy, that's going to be quite an ego blow. In theory this should make everyone better, but practice is different. I used professional sports earlier because I think that is a good example. There is very little hiding there, and people know who is better for the most part. Jiu Jitsu is a great example IMO because it's person vs. person. You can tell a lot about someones personality the first time to roll with someone. When they get beat (which they will - even by someone who is physically weaker), do they get mad or do they get excited to learn how it happened? The former never comes back because their ego will not allow it, and the later wants to learn how it was done.