5 ms·

>"there is no shortage and certainly no skills gap; employers just won't pay you what you're worth and people won't work for peanuts." That cannot be IEEE's re

>"there is no shortage and certainly no skills gap; employers just won't pay you what you're worth and people won't work for peanuts." That cannot be IEEE's response. It makes no sense. The market decides the rate, not the employers nor employees. If no employer wants to pay what you think you're worth, you're not worth that. Having said that, the market rate does give you some indication as to what the wider supply and demand looks like.

ncmncm 8y ago
No, because the market is artificially depressed by "visa programs". They pretend there are not enough skilled engineers, when really they are not offering enough to make the jobs attractive. Worse, people on these visas are captive labor, and cannot move along to better prospects.
- NotSammyHagar 8y ago
  It might be depressed but it's still an incredible job market. I just don't see it suppressed by immigration. In Seattle there are thousands of open jobs. My startup can't get people to even interview and we pay new bs cs grads 130k. fang pays more. We have 50 devs and want to hire 10. When I worked at Microsoft my division often had 3000 openings.
  - ncmncm 8y ago
    I see that we are talking about different time windows. You see a momentary spike in wages. I (and most people not blinded by the glare) see an unstable career prospect.
    - NotSammyHagar 8y ago
      I have seen wages go up pretty steadily since I moved here 25 years ago and started at Microsoft. I've worked at 6 companies now, through the 2000 .com crash and the 2008 crash. Both times some smaller companies didn't make it, partly because they didn't get new funding, but most jobs, salaries, etc kept up or didn't fall much. I know I've been fortunate but I'm nothing special, just a dev in seattle. I think you must be in a town without so much varied software jobs. I feel for you, and would be unhappy if I had the overtime demands you mention. That's just a very different world than I experience here.
  - selimthegrim 8y ago
    What if we all don't want to live in Seattle or be told what do do by some PM with a physics degree from fill in the blank who never had to grind out code themselves?
  - Amezarak 8y ago
    If you add your email to your profile and you hire remote, I can help you with that problem.
  - satokema 8y ago
    Maybe you're not looking in the right places? I've interviewed in a different city and been willing to relocate there. I don't have a lot of roots here besides family (who honestly probably love that I get out of the state) and this isn't a great location to begin with. I can't be the only decent developer fitting those criteria - I'm sure some new grads or even mid-levels might be open to moving. Or is your "shortage" actually a "shortage of people we deem suitable for this position and already live here" and not a general tech shortage?
bloomer 8y ago
You are missing the argument. It is the same one that RAND https://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF194.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF194.html gave when commissioned by congress to determine whether their was a “STEM shortage.” If there was a STEM shortage, wages would rise. Since rising wages aren’t observed, the situation is that the employers complaining of a shortage don’t want to pay the market rate. Instead they want extra-market forces (political programs to push workers into STEM training) to lower the market rate for them.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  >Since rising wages aren’t observed The crazy wages that tech companies pay aren't a data point? One of my co-op student got offered a position in the States with starting salary north of $120k - straight out of university and not even by one of the big 5 or even a Fortune 500 company. The guy was good and he'd have done well in the market, but not that good. >Since rising wages aren’t observed, the situation is that the employers complaining of a shortage don’t want to pay the market rate. Again, I'm having a hard time parsing this. Employers would always like to hire more people for less money. Employees would like to work less and make more money. You're correct in that technically there are never any shortages of anything ever, because you could always pay more money as supply dwindles. Even Venezuela, if you're willing to pay exorbitant prices with hard currency, I'm sure you could get anything you want. That's not what is meant by a 'shortage' though. >Instead they want extra-market forces (political programs to push workers into STEM training) That is such a weird way to phrase it. Every industry always tries to market itself to kids and students as a great career option. I'm not worried about the fact that companies in IT want more kids to go into IT. I'm getting a 'rent seeking' vibe in this thread. It seems like people here want to kick out the ladder after they climbed it into their career choice so as to reduce the supply of future professionals so that they can be the beneficiary of that reduced supply.
  - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
    > One of my co-op student got offered a position in the States with starting salary north of $120k Where? If it's NYC/SF/LA etc, then look at the price of homes in that city. Then look at the CoL. Then see if engineer compensation has kept up with CoL.
FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
The market colluded to drive wages down, screams at the top of their lungs about shortages to get wages down, it tried to scare people to talk about wages to drive wages down, it tells lies about unions to drive wages down. Market rate means absolutely nothing about real value.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  >The market colluded to drive wages down When you say things like that, do you actually have a mechanism in mind that enables this 'collusion'? Because to me, it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory on the level of moon-landing denial. And what wages are down? Programmers make very good salaries. There are people who go through a few weeks of coding boot camps and land good paying programming jobs - what other area (outside of commission sales) could you land such a position with a comparable level of experience/education background? >Market rate means absolutely nothing about real value. It means something. It tells you how valued your particular skills are to another individual.
  - systemBuilder 8y ago
    What about formal agreements between Steve Jobs, Sergey Brin, and Larry Page? Documented, litigated, proved in court. http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ your assertion that a few weeks of coding bootcamp can land a good job is highly suspect. I can assert that I know of community college graduates who are teaching at MIT. My assertion holds as much water as yours!
    - macspoofing 8y ago
      >What about formal agreements between Steve Jobs, Sergey Brin, and Larry Page? Documented, litigated, proved in court. http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ What about it? That certainly happened, but like you said, it was documented, litigated, and the offending parties paid big fines. Where is the rest of the market collusion keeping wages down? >your assertion that a few weeks of coding bootcamp can land a good job is highly suspect. There are some numbers out there. Here's one: https://www.switchup.org/rankings/coding-bootcamp-survey https://www.switchup.org/rankings/coding-bootcamp-survey Half of bootcamp attendees had less than 50 hours of experience. On average bootcamp alumni saw a $20k salary increase in their first job after completing the bootcamp. So now your assertion holds less water than mine.

ncmncm 8y ago

No, because the market is artificially depressed by "visa programs". They pretend there are not enough skilled engineers, when really they are not offering enough to make the jobs attractive. Worse, people on these visas are captive labor, and cannot move along to better prospects.

NotSammyHagar 8y ago
It might be depressed but it's still an incredible job market. I just don't see it suppressed by immigration. In Seattle there are thousands of open jobs. My startup can't get people to even interview and we pay new bs cs grads 130k. fang pays more. We have 50 devs and want to hire 10. When I worked at Microsoft my division often had 3000 openings.
- ncmncm 8y ago
  I see that we are talking about different time windows. You see a momentary spike in wages. I (and most people not blinded by the glare) see an unstable career prospect.
  - NotSammyHagar 8y ago
    I have seen wages go up pretty steadily since I moved here 25 years ago and started at Microsoft. I've worked at 6 companies now, through the 2000 .com crash and the 2008 crash. Both times some smaller companies didn't make it, partly because they didn't get new funding, but most jobs, salaries, etc kept up or didn't fall much. I know I've been fortunate but I'm nothing special, just a dev in seattle. I think you must be in a town without so much varied software jobs. I feel for you, and would be unhappy if I had the overtime demands you mention. That's just a very different world than I experience here.
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  What if we all don't want to live in Seattle or be told what do do by some PM with a physics degree from fill in the blank who never had to grind out code themselves?
- Amezarak 8y ago
  If you add your email to your profile and you hire remote, I can help you with that problem.
- satokema 8y ago
  Maybe you're not looking in the right places? I've interviewed in a different city and been willing to relocate there. I don't have a lot of roots here besides family (who honestly probably love that I get out of the state) and this isn't a great location to begin with. I can't be the only decent developer fitting those criteria - I'm sure some new grads or even mid-levels might be open to moving. Or is your "shortage" actually a "shortage of people we deem suitable for this position and already live here" and not a general tech shortage?

bloomer 8y ago

You are missing the argument. It is the same one that RAND https://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF194.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF194.html gave when commissioned by congress to determine whether their was a “STEM shortage.” If there was a STEM shortage, wages would rise. Since rising wages aren’t observed, the situation is that the employers complaining of a shortage don’t want to pay the market rate. Instead they want extra-market forces (political programs to push workers into STEM training) to lower the market rate for them.

macspoofing 8y ago
>Since rising wages aren’t observed The crazy wages that tech companies pay aren't a data point? One of my co-op student got offered a position in the States with starting salary north of $120k - straight out of university and not even by one of the big 5 or even a Fortune 500 company. The guy was good and he'd have done well in the market, but not that good. >Since rising wages aren’t observed, the situation is that the employers complaining of a shortage don’t want to pay the market rate. Again, I'm having a hard time parsing this. Employers would always like to hire more people for less money. Employees would like to work less and make more money. You're correct in that technically there are never any shortages of anything ever, because you could always pay more money as supply dwindles. Even Venezuela, if you're willing to pay exorbitant prices with hard currency, I'm sure you could get anything you want. That's not what is meant by a 'shortage' though. >Instead they want extra-market forces (political programs to push workers into STEM training) That is such a weird way to phrase it. Every industry always tries to market itself to kids and students as a great career option. I'm not worried about the fact that companies in IT want more kids to go into IT. I'm getting a 'rent seeking' vibe in this thread. It seems like people here want to kick out the ladder after they climbed it into their career choice so as to reduce the supply of future professionals so that they can be the beneficiary of that reduced supply.
- fucking_tragedy 8y ago
  > One of my co-op student got offered a position in the States with starting salary north of $120k Where? If it's NYC/SF/LA etc, then look at the price of homes in that city. Then look at the CoL. Then see if engineer compensation has kept up with CoL.

FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago

The market colluded to drive wages down, screams at the top of their lungs about shortages to get wages down, it tried to scare people to talk about wages to drive wages down, it tells lies about unions to drive wages down. Market rate means absolutely nothing about real value.

macspoofing 8y ago
>The market colluded to drive wages down When you say things like that, do you actually have a mechanism in mind that enables this 'collusion'? Because to me, it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory on the level of moon-landing denial. And what wages are down? Programmers make very good salaries. There are people who go through a few weeks of coding boot camps and land good paying programming jobs - what other area (outside of commission sales) could you land such a position with a comparable level of experience/education background? >Market rate means absolutely nothing about real value. It means something. It tells you how valued your particular skills are to another individual.
- systemBuilder 8y ago
  What about formal agreements between Steve Jobs, Sergey Brin, and Larry Page? Documented, litigated, proved in court. http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ your assertion that a few weeks of coding bootcamp can land a good job is highly suspect. I can assert that I know of community college graduates who are teaching at MIT. My assertion holds as much water as yours!
  - macspoofing 8y ago
    >What about formal agreements between Steve Jobs, Sergey Brin, and Larry Page? Documented, litigated, proved in court. http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ What about it? That certainly happened, but like you said, it was documented, litigated, and the offending parties paid big fines. Where is the rest of the market collusion keeping wages down? >your assertion that a few weeks of coding bootcamp can land a good job is highly suspect. There are some numbers out there. Here's one: https://www.switchup.org/rankings/coding-bootcamp-survey https://www.switchup.org/rankings/coding-bootcamp-survey Half of bootcamp attendees had less than 50 hours of experience. On average bootcamp alumni saw a $20k salary increase in their first job after completing the bootcamp. So now your assertion holds less water than mine.