32 ms·

Apple censors song about Tiananmen Square protests

108 points by _bxg1 8y ago

gigatexal 8y ago
They have to to appease the next big growth market: China. Courage would be not doing business with China and their abhorrent government but alas even Apple fears its shareholders more than its laurels.
- openarmseason 8y ago
  lol at China being the next big growth market...that's like the meme from 15 years ago. Nowadays it's close to 1-2% growth, with trillions of debt. India is the growth market.
daeken 8y ago
Is there a way to see what else is accessible from the Chinese iTunes store? I'm curious if "Hypnotize" by System of a Down is accessible; the first line is "Why don't you ask the kids at Tienanmen Square?"
- yorwba 8y ago
  https://applecensorship.com/ https://applecensorship.com/ currently only covers the app store. EDIT: There's a Chinese iTunes page for Hypnotize, and GreatFire's test indicates that the same response is served to users in China as in the US https://en.greatfire.org/https/itunes.apple.com/cn/album/hypnotize/159457194 https://en.greatfire.org/https/itunes.apple.com/cn/album/hyp... EDIT 2: Actually, that GreatFire check would have been unnecessary, since the censorship appears to be applied depending on the display language. Note the conspicuously absent song #14 here, then change "cn" in the URL to "us" to see it https://itunes.apple.com/cn/album/%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%93%E9%81%93/41760298?i=41760411 https://itunes.apple.com/cn/album/%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%93%E9%81%9...
caymanjim 8y ago
I'm so sick of this story. Essentially the same story comes around once a month. Apple is following the laws of a country they do business in. Full stop. They are not censoring anything. The Chinese government is censoring. There are plenty of things that the US government wouldn't let Apple publish. We may all agree that they shouldn't be allowed to publish those things, but it's not like China is the only country with laws. It's naive and childish to expect a corporation to ignore the laws of a country they operate in and forego a billion-person market over something as petty as this. It's not Apple's job to fight your social justice battles. Quit whining and take China on directly.
- curt15 8y ago
  >Apple is following the laws of a country they do business in. They are of course free do that, but that certainly reduces their standing if they try to preach privacy. The most revealing test of a company's principles is when they have to make inconvenient choices.
  - macintux 8y ago
    On the other hand, Apple devices in China still offer more privacy than most alternatives, so is it really better for Chinese users if Apple walks away?
- scarhill 8y ago
  The US has the first amendment. Can you give an example of something the US government wouldn't let Apple publish?
  - basementcat 8y ago
    Trade secrets of other companies. HIPAA protected medical information. Classified information. Information related to the location of a person in the Witness Protection Program.
  - caymanjim 8y ago
    Classified information, threats, bomb making instructions (borderline), categories of pornography, pirated media, libelous statements, trade secrets. Like I said, we may all agree that those things shouldn't be published--almost the entire world would--but some of them may be legal in some jurisdictions and not others, and there's a whole lot of grey area around the edges.
doe88 8y ago
The price of doing business in China is losing his soul.
abalone 8y ago
Worth noting that Apple "gets away" with more in China than most: - iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely available in China. - iCloud Keychain, which they've designed to work securely on "adversarial clouds"[1] (Of course this may only be because not many people actually use these features versus WeChat...) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U
- cletus 8y ago
  > - iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely available in China. And those encryption keys are stored in China because the Chinese government demanded it be so [1]. I believe it's also more subtle than that too. For example, if you (a non-Chinese iMessage user) send a message to a Chinese iMessage user the key to that exchange is now stored in China. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh...
  - intopieces 8y ago
    But what happens if you send a "sensitive" message over iMessage? On WeChat (or even the messaging system inside Didi!) you get censored. Does it happen on iMessage?
  - macintux 8y ago
    The keys are only useful if the user enables cloud storage of messages, so the user’s privacy is still achievable. That fact seems to be lost in the noise.
  - Despegar 8y ago
    What? The point of end-to-end encryption is that Apple doesn't retain the keys. iMessage and FaceTime are end-to-end encrypted. And after Messages in iCloud, you get the benefit of E2E while everything stays in sync across all your devices [1]. It won't be long until this dumb narrative that ignores Apple's leverage in China goes away. Once there's a trade deal they'll be allowed to own data centers without JVs again [2]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-ios-11-4-imessage-syncing-apple-iphone-feature https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-in-u-s-trade-talks-11554976562 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-...
mikenew 8y ago
It is interesting that Apple will take such a strong stance on privacy (Apple vs. the FBI, for example), but they simply won't make a stand on censorship. In fact I'd argue that censorship is part of their DNA. They've always removed controversial apps from the app store [1][2], they've always deleted forum threads that they don't like [3], and they're taking a very heavy handed approach to their new TV service [4]. And, of course, they've never really pushed back against China's demands. I admire their stance on privacy but they don't seem to have any issue with censorship. 1 https://www.digitalspy.com/videogames/a655089/games-that-display-the-confederate-flag-are-being-pulled-from-the-app-store/ https://www.digitalspy.com/videogames/a655089/games-that-dis... 2 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/30/apple-removing-drone-strikes-app https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/30/apple-rem... 3 https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-defensive-over-consumer-reports-findings-deletes-forum-threads/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-defensive-over-consumer-repo... 4 https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/apple-will-invest-1-billion-in-tv-but-dont-expect-game-of-thrones/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/apple-will-invest-1-b...
- melling 8y ago
  What’s interesting is that people like yourself think the world is the same everywhere. China has a different culture and different laws that we do not control. Companies have two choices: play by the rules or don’t play at all.
  - viivaux 8y ago
    If Apple wants to do business in one country in a way that upsets people in another country, then they have to face the consequences of that contagion. I honestly don't know what you expect to be different; people aren't rule-following robots.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > China has a different culture and different laws that we do not control. That's true, but it's also not that simple. That different culture is not uniform, and those laws may be illegitimate from many perspectives. > Companies have two choices: play by the rules or don’t play at all. The two choices company should have is play by moral rules or not play at all.
eridius 8y ago
What would you prefer? * Apple censors a song to comply with Chinese laws, so you can't hear that song * Apple doesn't censor the song, China blocks Apple Music, so you can't hear that song Either way, you can't hear that song. Apple has to follow the laws of the countries they do business in, and in China, that unfortunately sometimes means censorship. This way people in China still have access to the rest of Apple Music.
Razengan 8y ago
Apple has also apparently disabled ratings on an official Chinese propaganda app that is used against its citizens: https://imgur.com/a/60gdRZs https://imgur.com/a/60gdRZs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19603668 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19603668

108 points by _bxg1 8y ago

They have to to appease the next big growth market: China. Courage would be not doing business with China and their abhorrent government but alas even Apple fears its shareholders more than its laurels.

openarmseason 8y ago
lol at China being the next big growth market...that's like the meme from 15 years ago. Nowadays it's close to 1-2% growth, with trillions of debt. India is the growth market.

daeken 8y ago

Is there a way to see what else is accessible from the Chinese iTunes store? I'm curious if "Hypnotize" by System of a Down is accessible; the first line is "Why don't you ask the kids at Tienanmen Square?"

yorwba 8y ago
https://applecensorship.com/ https://applecensorship.com/ currently only covers the app store. EDIT: There's a Chinese iTunes page for Hypnotize, and GreatFire's test indicates that the same response is served to users in China as in the US https://en.greatfire.org/https/itunes.apple.com/cn/album/hypnotize/159457194 https://en.greatfire.org/https/itunes.apple.com/cn/album/hyp... EDIT 2: Actually, that GreatFire check would have been unnecessary, since the censorship appears to be applied depending on the display language. Note the conspicuously absent song #14 here, then change "cn" in the URL to "us" to see it https://itunes.apple.com/cn/album/%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%93%E9%81%93/41760298?i=41760411 https://itunes.apple.com/cn/album/%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%93%E9%81%9...

caymanjim 8y ago

I'm so sick of this story. Essentially the same story comes around once a month. Apple is following the laws of a country they do business in. Full stop. They are not censoring anything. The Chinese government is censoring. There are plenty of things that the US government wouldn't let Apple publish. We may all agree that they shouldn't be allowed to publish those things, but it's not like China is the only country with laws. It's naive and childish to expect a corporation to ignore the laws of a country they operate in and forego a billion-person market over something as petty as this. It's not Apple's job to fight your social justice battles. Quit whining and take China on directly.

curt15 8y ago
>Apple is following the laws of a country they do business in. They are of course free do that, but that certainly reduces their standing if they try to preach privacy. The most revealing test of a company's principles is when they have to make inconvenient choices.
- macintux 8y ago
  On the other hand, Apple devices in China still offer more privacy than most alternatives, so is it really better for Chinese users if Apple walks away?
scarhill 8y ago
The US has the first amendment. Can you give an example of something the US government wouldn't let Apple publish?
- basementcat 8y ago
  Trade secrets of other companies. HIPAA protected medical information. Classified information. Information related to the location of a person in the Witness Protection Program.
- caymanjim 8y ago
  Classified information, threats, bomb making instructions (borderline), categories of pornography, pirated media, libelous statements, trade secrets. Like I said, we may all agree that those things shouldn't be published--almost the entire world would--but some of them may be legal in some jurisdictions and not others, and there's a whole lot of grey area around the edges.

doe88 8y ago

The price of doing business in China is losing his soul.

abalone 8y ago

Worth noting that Apple "gets away" with more in China than most: - iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely available in China. - iCloud Keychain, which they've designed to work securely on "adversarial clouds"[1] (Of course this may only be because not many people actually use these features versus WeChat...) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U

cletus 8y ago
> - iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely available in China. And those encryption keys are stored in China because the Chinese government demanded it be so [1]. I believe it's also more subtle than that too. For example, if you (a non-Chinese iMessage user) send a message to a Chinese iMessage user the key to that exchange is now stored in China. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh...
- intopieces 8y ago
  But what happens if you send a "sensitive" message over iMessage? On WeChat (or even the messaging system inside Didi!) you get censored. Does it happen on iMessage?
- macintux 8y ago
  The keys are only useful if the user enables cloud storage of messages, so the user’s privacy is still achievable. That fact seems to be lost in the noise.
- Despegar 8y ago
  What? The point of end-to-end encryption is that Apple doesn't retain the keys. iMessage and FaceTime are end-to-end encrypted. And after Messages in iCloud, you get the benefit of E2E while everything stays in sync across all your devices [1]. It won't be long until this dumb narrative that ignores Apple's leverage in China goes away. Once there's a trade deal they'll be allowed to own data centers without JVs again [2]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-ios-11-4-imessage-syncing-apple-iphone-feature https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-in-u-s-trade-talks-11554976562 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-...

mikenew 8y ago

It is interesting that Apple will take such a strong stance on privacy (Apple vs. the FBI, for example), but they simply won't make a stand on censorship. In fact I'd argue that censorship is part of their DNA. They've always removed controversial apps from the app store [1][2], they've always deleted forum threads that they don't like [3], and they're taking a very heavy handed approach to their new TV service [4]. And, of course, they've never really pushed back against China's demands. I admire their stance on privacy but they don't seem to have any issue with censorship. 1 https://www.digitalspy.com/videogames/a655089/games-that-display-the-confederate-flag-are-being-pulled-from-the-app-store/ https://www.digitalspy.com/videogames/a655089/games-that-dis... 2 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/30/apple-removing-drone-strikes-app https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/30/apple-rem... 3 https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-defensive-over-consumer-reports-findings-deletes-forum-threads/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-defensive-over-consumer-repo... 4 https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/apple-will-invest-1-billion-in-tv-but-dont-expect-game-of-thrones/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/apple-will-invest-1-b...

melling 8y ago
What’s interesting is that people like yourself think the world is the same everywhere. China has a different culture and different laws that we do not control. Companies have two choices: play by the rules or don’t play at all.
- viivaux 8y ago
  If Apple wants to do business in one country in a way that upsets people in another country, then they have to face the consequences of that contagion. I honestly don't know what you expect to be different; people aren't rule-following robots.
- ardy42 8y ago
  > China has a different culture and different laws that we do not control. That's true, but it's also not that simple. That different culture is not uniform, and those laws may be illegitimate from many perspectives. > Companies have two choices: play by the rules or don’t play at all. The two choices company should have is play by moral rules or not play at all.

eridius 8y ago

What would you prefer? * Apple censors a song to comply with Chinese laws, so you can't hear that song * Apple doesn't censor the song, China blocks Apple Music, so you can't hear that song Either way, you can't hear that song. Apple has to follow the laws of the countries they do business in, and in China, that unfortunately sometimes means censorship. This way people in China still have access to the rest of Apple Music.

Razengan 8y ago

Apple has also apparently disabled ratings on an official Chinese propaganda app that is used against its citizens: https://imgur.com/a/60gdRZs https://imgur.com/a/60gdRZs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19603668 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19603668