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"When I pressed them on why they were not taking stronger action against China, their response was, 'We have a multifaceted relationship with China.' " And thi

"When I pressed them on why they were not taking stronger action against China, their response was, 'We have a multifaceted relationship with China.' " And this is it: don't want to upset the promise future sales. And this is how 'dividing and conquering' works. One side speaks with 'one voice', the other with 'thousands of little voices' - and it's game.

creato 8y ago
And the one company highlighted in the article as speaking out is on the verge of being broken up by Western governments. The western world is being played like a fiddle. Negotiating power is everything, and western democracies and their private and corporate citizens have absolutely none compared to autocratic regimes.
- njepa 8y ago
  The whole idea behind the western world at the moment is to have as little in common as possible. No government, no taxes and especially no regulation is the dream. So why would the average citizen care?
- math_and_stuff 8y ago
  That one company has also completely reversed its stance over the last year and now openly defends censoring human rights and complying with the CCP's surveillance demands. Google has no reason to hold its head high.
  - vatueil 8y ago
    Why is Google singled out for reprobation when, as the article points out, they've spoken out more than other companies? Sure, no one is spotless, but as it stands it's Microsoft that runs a censored search engine (Bing in China) and Apple that handed over its Chinese users iCloud encryption keys. To be fair, you could say Apple and Microsoft had their reasons for doing so (as people including the Chinese themselves have argued). But why all the focus on Google then? Is the idea of a Chinese search engine (which has since been cancelled) worse than actually running a censored search engine such as Bing China? It's gotten to the point where people commonly think Google is cozier with Chinese authorities than other companies, when if anything it's the opposite. That seems perverse.
    - math_and_stuff 8y ago
      I completely agree with the argument that Google is no worse -- and have publicly campaigned to this effect -- but I was responding to the claim that Google should be proud of its history of standing up against authoritarian pressure. It no longer deserves that honor. But, yes, Microsoft and Apple are equally, if not more, deserving of shame.
  - HillaryBriss 8y ago
    what makes me laugh about Google's expression of frustration in this matter is that Google extracts/copies info from other websites, summarizes it and displays it directly to the user in their search result page!
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  Weren’t people saying this shit wrt the USSR during the Cold War?
mc32 8y ago
If I recall correctly, a concerted effort to step up these industrial espionage activities began around 2008. Many American companies never publicly acked or fessed up to being hacked either out of embarrassment or “multifaceted” reasons.
jcims 8y ago
Do you really believe that’s the only reason companies dont want to participate in an investigation? When stocks take a dive and customers flee and the public calls for rolling heads every time there’s a compromise? How is it ok to lay the blame squarely and fully on the shoulders of the victims here?
chungleong 8y ago
In some cases I think the executives don't want be involved in an investigation out of fear that the Chinese got kompromat on them. You know, guy on a business trip, making new friends among certain enthusiastic locals...
joe_the_user 8y ago
And this is it: don't want to upset the promise future sales. Uh, it's even simpler. China is now the only place that a variety of things get manufactured (injection molded plastic in bulk only happens in China, for a significant example. Books in various formats, etc). If you decide to fight China, you can no longer get your X made. For a smallish manufacturing company, that would put you out of business. China sales is just an extra consideration.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  That's generally not the kind of leverage that China has. Factories bend over backwards for your business, 'we won't make it for you' is not a kind of discussion that's had. There are almost always alternatives and they know it. The stick/carrot that China uses is market access. The thing is, there is often no actual carrot. Zuck has been on his knees forever, as have Google, they are nowhere. If you're Pizza Hut or KFC or some kind of brand, maybe, but anything else ...
  - joe_the_user 8y ago
    I'm sure an individual Chinese factory wouldn't take reprisals on it's own or anything. This is speculative - as much for anyone doing business with China as for me in the US just thinking. But it's not individual factories doing the hacking and I assume it wouldn't be individual factories doing the reprisals, it would be the Chinese state, which has a reputation for a scorched earth approach. And yeah, given the carrot often isn't very real, the idea that provokes unanimous behavior among US companies in China seems implausible.
    - Stranger43 8y ago
      Why do you assume that individual Chinese companies dont do any hacking and that the only companies being hacked by Chinese entities are "Western". In a lot of ways China is a lot like the US doing the gilded age when companies were at each other throats and no trick was to dirty in the game of markets. There is this decease in US strategic thinking of looking for an superhuman single conspiracy whenever the cartel of "no longer strong enough" conspirators the author/thinker backs or belong to is not 110% successful where as the reality is often far more chaotic where you have a series of competitors(who is competing with each other and you) essentially changing the market dynamics in a way that makes the market hostile to some organizations. The other problem is that if capitalism works as described China should be growing and the west declining as capital are supposed to flow towards stable developing(as in still poor) states as that's where the biggest payouts is, the fact that the reverse is true for America(and for the global cold war economy) proves that Smith was either wrong or that America was never a capitalist democracy. The cold hard truth is that the next wave of growth will likely bypass the west so unless you want to become a low margin(de facto state controlled) monopoly or is small enough to ignore interstate markets you need to be in China, India and in decade or two Africa to grow, and the Koreans and Chinese have already gone there so if you are an western company you are catching up from a position of weakness.

creato 8y ago

And the one company highlighted in the article as speaking out is on the verge of being broken up by Western governments. The western world is being played like a fiddle. Negotiating power is everything, and western democracies and their private and corporate citizens have absolutely none compared to autocratic regimes.

njepa 8y ago
The whole idea behind the western world at the moment is to have as little in common as possible. No government, no taxes and especially no regulation is the dream. So why would the average citizen care?
math_and_stuff 8y ago
That one company has also completely reversed its stance over the last year and now openly defends censoring human rights and complying with the CCP's surveillance demands. Google has no reason to hold its head high.
- vatueil 8y ago
  Why is Google singled out for reprobation when, as the article points out, they've spoken out more than other companies? Sure, no one is spotless, but as it stands it's Microsoft that runs a censored search engine (Bing in China) and Apple that handed over its Chinese users iCloud encryption keys. To be fair, you could say Apple and Microsoft had their reasons for doing so (as people including the Chinese themselves have argued). But why all the focus on Google then? Is the idea of a Chinese search engine (which has since been cancelled) worse than actually running a censored search engine such as Bing China? It's gotten to the point where people commonly think Google is cozier with Chinese authorities than other companies, when if anything it's the opposite. That seems perverse.
  - math_and_stuff 8y ago
    I completely agree with the argument that Google is no worse -- and have publicly campaigned to this effect -- but I was responding to the claim that Google should be proud of its history of standing up against authoritarian pressure. It no longer deserves that honor. But, yes, Microsoft and Apple are equally, if not more, deserving of shame.
- HillaryBriss 8y ago
  what makes me laugh about Google's expression of frustration in this matter is that Google extracts/copies info from other websites, summarizes it and displays it directly to the user in their search result page!
selimthegrim 8y ago
Weren’t people saying this shit wrt the USSR during the Cold War?

mc32 8y ago

If I recall correctly, a concerted effort to step up these industrial espionage activities began around 2008. Many American companies never publicly acked or fessed up to being hacked either out of embarrassment or “multifaceted” reasons.

jcims 8y ago

Do you really believe that’s the only reason companies dont want to participate in an investigation? When stocks take a dive and customers flee and the public calls for rolling heads every time there’s a compromise? How is it ok to lay the blame squarely and fully on the shoulders of the victims here?

chungleong 8y ago

In some cases I think the executives don't want be involved in an investigation out of fear that the Chinese got kompromat on them. You know, guy on a business trip, making new friends among certain enthusiastic locals...

joe_the_user 8y ago

And this is it: don't want to upset the promise future sales. Uh, it's even simpler. China is now the only place that a variety of things get manufactured (injection molded plastic in bulk only happens in China, for a significant example. Books in various formats, etc). If you decide to fight China, you can no longer get your X made. For a smallish manufacturing company, that would put you out of business. China sales is just an extra consideration.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
That's generally not the kind of leverage that China has. Factories bend over backwards for your business, 'we won't make it for you' is not a kind of discussion that's had. There are almost always alternatives and they know it. The stick/carrot that China uses is market access. The thing is, there is often no actual carrot. Zuck has been on his knees forever, as have Google, they are nowhere. If you're Pizza Hut or KFC or some kind of brand, maybe, but anything else ...
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  I'm sure an individual Chinese factory wouldn't take reprisals on it's own or anything. This is speculative - as much for anyone doing business with China as for me in the US just thinking. But it's not individual factories doing the hacking and I assume it wouldn't be individual factories doing the reprisals, it would be the Chinese state, which has a reputation for a scorched earth approach. And yeah, given the carrot often isn't very real, the idea that provokes unanimous behavior among US companies in China seems implausible.
  - Stranger43 8y ago
    Why do you assume that individual Chinese companies dont do any hacking and that the only companies being hacked by Chinese entities are "Western". In a lot of ways China is a lot like the US doing the gilded age when companies were at each other throats and no trick was to dirty in the game of markets. There is this decease in US strategic thinking of looking for an superhuman single conspiracy whenever the cartel of "no longer strong enough" conspirators the author/thinker backs or belong to is not 110% successful where as the reality is often far more chaotic where you have a series of competitors(who is competing with each other and you) essentially changing the market dynamics in a way that makes the market hostile to some organizations. The other problem is that if capitalism works as described China should be growing and the west declining as capital are supposed to flow towards stable developing(as in still poor) states as that's where the biggest payouts is, the fact that the reverse is true for America(and for the global cold war economy) proves that Smith was either wrong or that America was never a capitalist democracy. The cold hard truth is that the next wave of growth will likely bypass the west so unless you want to become a low margin(de facto state controlled) monopoly or is small enough to ignore interstate markets you need to be in China, India and in decade or two Africa to grow, and the Koreans and Chinese have already gone there so if you are an western company you are catching up from a position of weakness.