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Well, Google intends for this new OS to replace Android. They'll need to convince the public that this new OS is somehow better than Android, which everyone has

Well, Google intends for this new OS to replace Android. They'll need to convince the public that this new OS is somehow better than Android, which everyone has come to know and love. It seems that they believe the best way to do that is a grassroots approach beginning with tech discussion hubs like HN and Reddit. Of course, they could have just meme'd hard about the fact that they're moving away from evil Oracle technology and we'd have already all been on board.

ASinclair 8y ago
> Well, Google intends for this new OS to replace Android. Can you point me to anything that demonstrates that intention?
- davidb_ 8y ago
  Currently it's just rumors that it will replace Android based on Fushia and Flutter's target devices. You can see a summary on [the wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia).
- terryschiavo22 8y ago
  https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-android,news-28966.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-andro...
pjmlp 8y ago
It is very easy to convince the public, OEMs are the ones that need to be convinced. ART is already being ported into Fuchsia and Linuxisms are not part of NDK stable APIs. So managed Android apps will just work, and NDK libraries only need to be recompiled.
- endorphone 8y ago
  In that case it wouldn't have replaced Android at all -- It would have simply replaced the Android kernel, which happens to be Linux. And at that point you have to ask what is gained, and at this point the answer is "nothing".
  - monocasa 8y ago
    Well a change of the kernel's license from GPLv2 to BSD is certainly a change. I'm sure the OEMs think that gains them something.
    - endorphone 8y ago
      Android OEMs are not in the business of writing kernels, though, and the changes they do are minimal. And their HAL/chipset code -- the thing they might actually care about as IP -- is not governed by the GPL at all, nor is any of the enormous volume of system and userspace code they write. It's a neat initiative and might yield something interesting, but if the Linux kernel was replaced by Fuscia the ramifications are seemingly very minor. Android's many issues have never been at the kernel level.
      - monocasa 8y ago
        The components of their HAL/chipset code in the kernel are most of the time governed by the GPL. We can take some examples apart of need be.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        After Project Treble that only applies to the legacy HAL code.
        monocasa 8y ago
        Even fully after Treble, there are absolutely still kernel drivers.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        Sure there are, they are known as "legacy HALs" on Project Treble documentation.
        8y ago
endorphone 8y ago
Nothing, at all, has demonstrated that they plan it to replace Android -- that was a narrative various tech blogs invented. Nor would it have any benefit in moving away from the Java inspired/cloned underpinnings of the Android user layer. Google has a variety of initiatives, and they really like reinventing things (which can sometimes yield great outcomes). This is a kernel that is in contrast with Linux.
- terryschiavo22 8y ago
  https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-android,news-28966.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-andro... From the article, the OS allows for full compatibility with all Android apps. Furthermore, it notes that Google is going out of its way to avoid mentioning Android anymore. Of course, if I were Google and trying to sell the public on my new OS, I'd want them all to think that I'm not scrapping the old OS so that they feel they have a choice.
  - endorphone 8y ago
    "the OS allows for full compatibility with all Android apps" The article does not say that. The article mentions an ART target for Fuscia -- you have to build from something. That is approximately 0.1% of the way towards full compatibility. And for that matter you can run Android apps on a load of targets (although far from full compatibility), but that doesn't mean that they're replacing Android. Google may absolutely replace Android -- they've made loads and loads of mistakes along the way -- but the way people keep arguing it doesn't make sense, using examples that jettison the parts that work well and somehow keep the parts that don't work well (which includes ART, as an aside). And indeed I'm falling into this same trap while talking about Fuscia like it's a kernel, when really the kernel is a small part and they're, at a very small scale, spit-boarding a new take on virtually every part of the system. Regarding Google distancing itself from the Android name, that's just branding. To quote one analysis -- "Android sounds technical, has baggage, and might be stale". They've had enough missteps that it's an anchor more than a lift, so it makes sense that they stop highlighting it.
monocasa 8y ago
Well, they're not moving away from Android per se. ART is being ported to run on fuschia.
shereadsthenews 8y ago
> Android, which everyone has come to know and love. Haha, honestly now. If my Android didn't cost $700 I would long since have smashed it to bits. It's scheduler is totally garbage, to the point where Google's own media apps like YouTube and Music drop samples while the screen is redrawing. Who "loves" Android? To me it is the Win98 of mobile operating systems.
- ubercore 8y ago
  That's a turn of phrase to indicate that not everyone loves, but it _is_ well known and probably the biggest consumer OS on the planet in terms of volume. Also though, I do love it. Different strokes and all
- linuxftw 8y ago
  Android has been pretty solid for me. I'm on my second Android device, this one cost me like $150 or so. I've never had a higher-end phone, so I'm not missing anything with the mid-range. Web works great, as do most apps.
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  When you only have two real choices, each with their own significant set of distinct problems, I think the term "love" can be substituted for "hate the least". Android, which everyone has come to know and hate the least. Well, not everyone, but my point is the same regardless.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I left Symbian for Android 2.1, after several Android devices, became part of the 10% of WP share in Europe, now still using one of them as secondary device.
ansible 8y ago
It is sort of replacing Android, but not really. But it sort of is. The kernel is designed to have a stable binary interface for drivers. This has been a problem with Linux-based Android devices (all of them so far), because the OEMs (or more properly the chipset vendors like Qualcomm) will only support a particular chipset for a short amount of time (maybe a couple years, it depends). After that, it becomes hard to bring new kernels to the platform, so we all end up with phones stuck at whatever major release was out at the time, with low prospects of upgrades. If you can make a stable binary API, and furthermore keep to the micro-kernel model, then most of the OS can be easily upgraded, because you don't need (and aren't going to get) new versions of the device drivers for the chipset. Also, there's an effort towards better low-latency real-time support. This is critical for AR/VR applications with tight rendering deadlines.

ASinclair 8y ago

> Well, Google intends for this new OS to replace Android. Can you point me to anything that demonstrates that intention?

davidb_ 8y ago
Currently it's just rumors that it will replace Android based on Fushia and Flutter's target devices. You can see a summary on [the wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia).
terryschiavo22 8y ago
https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-android,news-28966.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-andro...

pjmlp 8y ago

It is very easy to convince the public, OEMs are the ones that need to be convinced. ART is already being ported into Fuchsia and Linuxisms are not part of NDK stable APIs. So managed Android apps will just work, and NDK libraries only need to be recompiled.

endorphone 8y ago
In that case it wouldn't have replaced Android at all -- It would have simply replaced the Android kernel, which happens to be Linux. And at that point you have to ask what is gained, and at this point the answer is "nothing".
- monocasa 8y ago
  Well a change of the kernel's license from GPLv2 to BSD is certainly a change. I'm sure the OEMs think that gains them something.
  - endorphone 8y ago
    Android OEMs are not in the business of writing kernels, though, and the changes they do are minimal. And their HAL/chipset code -- the thing they might actually care about as IP -- is not governed by the GPL at all, nor is any of the enormous volume of system and userspace code they write. It's a neat initiative and might yield something interesting, but if the Linux kernel was replaced by Fuscia the ramifications are seemingly very minor. Android's many issues have never been at the kernel level.
    - monocasa 8y ago
      The components of their HAL/chipset code in the kernel are most of the time governed by the GPL. We can take some examples apart of need be.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        After Project Treble that only applies to the legacy HAL code.
        monocasa 8y ago
        Even fully after Treble, there are absolutely still kernel drivers.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        Sure there are, they are known as "legacy HALs" on Project Treble documentation.
        8y ago

endorphone 8y ago

Nothing, at all, has demonstrated that they plan it to replace Android -- that was a narrative various tech blogs invented. Nor would it have any benefit in moving away from the Java inspired/cloned underpinnings of the Android user layer. Google has a variety of initiatives, and they really like reinventing things (which can sometimes yield great outcomes). This is a kernel that is in contrast with Linux.

terryschiavo22 8y ago
https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-android,news-28966.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/google-fuchsia-os-replace-andro... From the article, the OS allows for full compatibility with all Android apps. Furthermore, it notes that Google is going out of its way to avoid mentioning Android anymore. Of course, if I were Google and trying to sell the public on my new OS, I'd want them all to think that I'm not scrapping the old OS so that they feel they have a choice.
- endorphone 8y ago
  "the OS allows for full compatibility with all Android apps" The article does not say that. The article mentions an ART target for Fuscia -- you have to build from something. That is approximately 0.1% of the way towards full compatibility. And for that matter you can run Android apps on a load of targets (although far from full compatibility), but that doesn't mean that they're replacing Android. Google may absolutely replace Android -- they've made loads and loads of mistakes along the way -- but the way people keep arguing it doesn't make sense, using examples that jettison the parts that work well and somehow keep the parts that don't work well (which includes ART, as an aside). And indeed I'm falling into this same trap while talking about Fuscia like it's a kernel, when really the kernel is a small part and they're, at a very small scale, spit-boarding a new take on virtually every part of the system. Regarding Google distancing itself from the Android name, that's just branding. To quote one analysis -- "Android sounds technical, has baggage, and might be stale". They've had enough missteps that it's an anchor more than a lift, so it makes sense that they stop highlighting it.

monocasa 8y ago

Well, they're not moving away from Android per se. ART is being ported to run on fuschia.

shereadsthenews 8y ago

> Android, which everyone has come to know and love. Haha, honestly now. If my Android didn't cost $700 I would long since have smashed it to bits. It's scheduler is totally garbage, to the point where Google's own media apps like YouTube and Music drop samples while the screen is redrawing. Who "loves" Android? To me it is the Win98 of mobile operating systems.

ubercore 8y ago
That's a turn of phrase to indicate that not everyone loves, but it _is_ well known and probably the biggest consumer OS on the planet in terms of volume. Also though, I do love it. Different strokes and all
linuxftw 8y ago
Android has been pretty solid for me. I'm on my second Android device, this one cost me like $150 or so. I've never had a higher-end phone, so I'm not missing anything with the mid-range. Web works great, as do most apps.
stronglikedan 8y ago
When you only have two real choices, each with their own significant set of distinct problems, I think the term "love" can be substituted for "hate the least". Android, which everyone has come to know and hate the least. Well, not everyone, but my point is the same regardless.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I left Symbian for Android 2.1, after several Android devices, became part of the 10% of WP share in Europe, now still using one of them as secondary device.

ansible 8y ago

It is sort of replacing Android, but not really. But it sort of is. The kernel is designed to have a stable binary interface for drivers. This has been a problem with Linux-based Android devices (all of them so far), because the OEMs (or more properly the chipset vendors like Qualcomm) will only support a particular chipset for a short amount of time (maybe a couple years, it depends). After that, it becomes hard to bring new kernels to the platform, so we all end up with phones stuck at whatever major release was out at the time, with low prospects of upgrades. If you can make a stable binary API, and furthermore keep to the micro-kernel model, then most of the OS can be easily upgraded, because you don't need (and aren't going to get) new versions of the device drivers for the chipset. Also, there's an effort towards better low-latency real-time support. This is critical for AR/VR applications with tight rendering deadlines.